Use of CRT TVs now, and best usage?

[Warborg]

Well, I just recently stumbled into a 31" CRT TV (Sanyo DS31590 31") and am considering if it's worth possibly building a project around...  I'm wondering if people still manage to utilize tube TVs much or if they just focus on arcade monitors or flat panels at this point?

It's been a LONG time since I've tried to interface a PC to a TV...  This set as composite and svideo in, would it be best to eBay an old PCIE vid card w/svideo, or buy a scanline converter?  What is the practical viewing distance for a cabinet using a screen of this size?  What is the max res that a CRT TV can handle via svideo?

I guess I'm just trying to gauge if it's actually worth hanging onto until I can use it for another arcade project, or if I should just ecycle it... 

[Well Fed Games]

Wow, 31" is pretty huge & heavy. FWIW, I was able to find OEM graphics cards with S-video out pretty easily on Ebay for $20-ish within the last couple months.

[DaveMMR]

I keep tube TV's around but mainly for my console collection (the NES in particular looks like crap on a modern TV, and forget about using the Zapper...)

As for building an arcade project around a 31" - it's doable but maybe none too practical. I had a 25" in my old project and that's I think as big as I would go (maybe 27") due to the fact you're practically right on top of the screen when playing. Plus I'm imagining having to go wider on the cabinet for that big a display.

If you can build an emulation setup (not a full cabinet) where you can sit across the room a bit, it may be useful. 

[RandyT]

This was about the size of a "showcase" cabinet CRT.  If you have the space, this would be the best use for the beast.  The control panel is good distance from the screen, so the size won't be working against you, and the extra distance will make the lower quality video less noticeable.

Just make sure that whatever is responsible for supporting it is strong enough

[thatpurplestuff]

I agree with DaveMMR in that when you're talking about anything larger than 30" it's going to be too big for a standard arcade cabient (BUT I'd like to add an exception here, which is if you decide to use your CRT for a mirror cabinet).  The extra distance that the mirror setup gives you allows for the comfortable viewing of even larger screens.  Check out this Operation Wolf to see what I'm talking about:



I'm in the process of designing a very large arcade cabinet that actually uses a mirrored 32" Sony Trinitron... I've always loved the way mirrored cabs like T2 and Omega Race make the cabinet appear to have more depth than it actually has, and since I had a spare 32" CRT lying around I figured it was the perfect opportunity to make my dream cab.  Reversing the yoke to work in a mirrored setup is surprisingly easy since you really just have to swap two wires... after that you just have to find a way to mount the CRT so that it's facing upwards (and possibly demagnetize it) and you are ready to rock!

edit: If you're opening the TV to make any modifications at all MAKE DAMN SURE TO DISCHARGE IT FIRST!  You probably already know this but I figured I would add this just to be safe.

[RandyT]

One thing that may or may not be an issue with an up facing CRT is gravity's eventual effect on the dot mask.  The bigger the screen, the larger the mask, and the more likely it could sag and distort under it's own weight.  This would result in color purity issues.  Just something to watch out for.

[paigeoliver]

One thing that may or may not be an issue with an up facing CRT is gravity's eventual effect on the dot mask.  The bigger the screen, the larger the mask, and the more likely it could sag and distort under it's own weight.  This would result in color purity issues.  Just something to watch out for.

This wasn't a known issue with any of the games with up facing 25" and 27" monitors that I was aware of, and they just had standard model tubes, nothing special. However I don't think any games went up facing with anything bigger than a 27" so who knows what a bigger tube may do.

CRT television sets can essentially be had for a negligible  amount of money these days. They are being unloaded in great numbers. So don't feel like you HAVE to put the TV to some sort of use. Every $20 bill in your wallet can buy another one.

If you are going with a TV then I would probably use a hacked Xbox to power the system. Normally I say putting an xbox in a cabinet is stupid, but I have never seen a TV out card look as good on a crt as a real console did.

You can also get a compatible arcade chassis, turn the monitor into an arcade monitor and hook it up using any of the usual methods.

[RandyT]

This wasn't a known issue with any of the games with up facing 25" and 27" monitors that I was aware of, and they just had standard model tubes, nothing special. However I don't think any games went up facing with anything bigger than a 27" so who knows what a bigger tube may do.

I ran into a stack of 21" PC monitors in the old days which had shadow mask issues due to being bounced around with the screen facing upward.  My CRT repair guy said he had seen it before and made that comment to me, right before telling me that they couldn't be fixed.  It makes sense that larger screens would be more susceptible to this kind of thing, as the masks are necessarily very thin and can only be held at the edges.  Take it for what it's worth.

[Warborg]

This was about the size of a "showcase" cabinet CRT.  If you have the space, this would be the best use for the beast.  The control panel is good distance from the screen, so the size won't be working against you, and the extra distance will make the lower quality video less noticeable.

Just make sure that whatever is responsible for supporting it is strong enough

I actually had a showcase cabinet a while back with a slightly smaller tube TV in it, but at the time the size of the thing wasn't terribly practical for me...  I've been looking at my living room and thinking about it, but I think that if I were to seriously consider another Showcase I would ultimately have to choose between my girlfriend or my cabinet... 

Yeah, I think I'm just gonna e-cycle it or something, I can't really think of anything I can practically use it for in teh space I have available...  As it is I've half considered reducing my arcade cabinet into a portable control panel setup that I can just run a cable to my DLP TV in the living room if I wanted to play something...

[CaptainMarvel]

Reading all of this makes me wish I had had the foresight to have held onto some of the computer monitors I've had over the years.


But then again, WHO KNEW I would eventually stumble upon the awesome world of "BYOAC" and, in retrospect, discover I would have had a need for them?






 

[rCadeGaming]

CRT television sets can essentially be had for a negligible  amount of money these days. They are being unloaded in great numbers. So don't feel like you HAVE to put the TV to some sort of use. Every $20 bill in your wallet can buy another one.

+1.  Very true

Normally I say putting an xbox in a cabinet is stupid, but I have never seen a TV out card look as good on a crt as a real console did.

That's because TV out cards always scale everything to 480i.  To get real arcade resolutions from a PC you need a VGA to component transcoder.  If you go that route, you'll get more authenticity and flexibility than you can get with an XBox.

You can also get a compatible arcade chassis, turn the monitor into an arcade monitor and hook it up using any of the usual methods.

Conversion chassis's only work with certain tubes depending on the neck configuration, quality is questionable, and there isn't any real benefit over using a transcoder.

[paigeoliver]

Conversion chassis's only work with certain tubes depending on the neck configuration, quality is questionable, and there isn't any real benefit over using a transcoder.

I don't seem to encounter a lot of variation in the real world when it comes to the neck configurations of the larger tv sets at least not with the sets that have traditionally shaped tubes.

[rCadeGaming]

There are plenty of different neck configs with TV tubes.  Anyhow, can you vouch for the quality of those conversion chassis's? 

Also, with a conversion chassis, you're paying a lot to gain an RGB input, and you lose all your other inputs.  A transcoder adds RGB without taking anything else away.

[Dawgz Rule]

Reading all of this makes me wish I had had the foresight to have held onto some of the computer monitors I've had over the years.

Fortunately I caught the tail end of procuring a new arcade monitor at a reasonable price for my first build.  The next build is going to be a Sony TV with an encoder.  Should be interesting to see the two side by side. 

[jtslade]

I have heard great things, just need to measure and respond to the questions on resistance and number of pins (a good pic also of the yoke with the neck board removed would be a good idea)..

100 bucks for a chasis and pair up with a Arcade VGA would be pretty awesome. I have found that you end up hating Svideo and go the Arcade CRT route anyway, better to save the time and money.

I have never played with using Componet inputs which seems to have good results but you need a video card which can do component input.

8 Liners can build you a chassis:

http://www.8liners.com/datatech/monitor.html

[Malenko]

I agree with DaveMMR in that when you're talking about anything larger than 30" it's going to be too big for a standard arcade cabient

Another exception is turnin that summabitch SIDEWAYS:

Man I miss that cab.

[rCadeGaming]

I have heard great things (about conversion chassis's)

Can you post a link?  Seriously, not trying to put it down or be overskeptical, I just haven't seen any real feedback on these and would like to know.

100 bucks for a chasis and pair up with a Arcade VGA would be pretty awesome.

It would be cheaper to use a transcoder instead of the conversion chassis and CRT_Emudriver instead of the ArcadeVGA.  The end result would be a lot more flexible, and look as good or better.

I have never played with using Componet inputs which seems to have good results but you need a video card which can do component input.

No.  The component outputs on video cards generally do the same thing as s-video and composite "TV-out."  They all scale everything to 480i, destroying native resolutions.

I'm talking about using the VGA output from a CRT_Emudriver-compatible card (could also be Soft15kHz or an ArcadeVGA, but neither are as flexible).  You connect that VGA output to an RGB to component transcoder, which transcodes the colorspace to component without altering resolution, which you can plug into the TV.  The result is native arcade resolutions on a 15kHz CRT.  The CRT just happens to be a TV instead of an arcade monitor.  I think people think that is a bigger difference than it really is.  When set up properly a good standard definition TV can look every bit as good as a 15kHz arcade monitor.

RGB and component are roughly equivalent in terms of quality, and can be transcoded with relatively no loss in quality.  The same can not be said with the common VGA to composite or s-video "converters" which apply scaling and cause a massive loss in quality.

[Malenko]

No.  The component outputs on video cards generally do the same thing as s-video and composite "TV-out."  They all scale everything to 480i, destroying native resolutions.

Well, thats not always the case. Ive output HD resolutions from component out on video cards, and the TV he specified says it runs 1080i (and it weighs 108 lbs!)

Warborg, how much money do you want to spend? That's the real question.  Spend a couple bucks on a cable if you don't have one, and see what it looks like or start buying all these transcoders and chasis for a better picture to play low resolution arcade games on.

rCade prefer to spend the cash to get the picture "perfect"
I prefer to save the money unless the picture is terrible.

[Dawgz Rule]

Warborg, how much money do you want to spend? That's the real question.  Spend a couple bucks on a cable if you don't have one, and see what it looks like or start buying all these transcoders and chasis for a better picture to play low resolution arcade games on.

+1.  I did a quick test run with svideo to the sony tv and it wasn't bad but wasn't great either (at least compared to the arcade monitor).  It was definitely usable though.

I'm talking about using the VGA output from a CRT_Emudriver-compatible card (could also be Soft15kHz or an ArcadeVGA, but neither are as flexible).  You connect that VGA output to an RGB to component transcoder, which transcodes the colorspace to component without altering resolution, which you can plug into the TV.  The result is native arcade resolutions on a 15kHz CRT.  The CRT just happens to be a TV instead of an arcade monitor.  I think people think that is a bigger difference than it really is.  When set up properly a good standard definition TV can look every bit as good as a 15kHz arcade monitor.

This is where I am going with the next build.  Quite honestly, the biggest driver is simply to see and learn.  If it works out well, I will do the same for future builds.  There does seem to be plenty of stock of CRT tv's for free or close to it. 

[Malenko]

and just so Im clear, what I posted is not a dog on rCade at all, we just have different opinions , and Im a cheapskate

[rCadeGaming]

No.  The component outputs on video cards generally do the same thing as s-video and composite "TV-out."  They all scale everything to 480i, destroying native resolutions.

Well, thats not always the case. Ive output HD resolutions from component out on video cards, and the TV he specified says it runs 1080i

I was assuming we were talking about MAME here.  I don't doubt those cards can output resolutions above 480i, and that's all well and good for other applications, but not for MAME.  90% of games in MAME run around 240p.  What I meant was it will take any kind of low-res progressive, meaning pretty much anything from MAME, and upscale it. 

There has been plenty of talk in the monitor and GroovyMAME sections about finding a component out card that could output native MAME resolutions, as this would eliminate the need for a transcoder, but no one has been able to confirm the existence of such a card as of yet.  If you think you've got one, please share the info.

Also, if the also the TV can display 1080i it's not suitable for MAME either.  CRT TV's that can display 480p or more generally upscale lower resolutions to a minimum of 480p.  It is theoretically possible that a TV could be built to do both 240p/480i and 480p/1080i, but no one has been able to confirm the existence of that either, and it doesn't make sense why any manufacturer would make one.  It is cheaper to build a set that's 15kHz-only or 31kHz-only (480p and 1080i are both 31kHz), and sub-480-line sources were considered outdated by the time 31kHz TV's entered the market.

MAME on a CRT that doesn't allow the native resolutions isn't much better than using a LCD.  It's not worth trying to compromise by using MAME on an unsuitable CRT TV, when a suitable one can find be found on Craigslist for next to nothing.

That TV could be great for newer 480p content though, like Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube, etc.

rCade prefer to spend the cash to get the picture "perfect"
I prefer to save the money unless the picture is terrible.

You're making it sound like I'm arguing for the most expensive option, which is not the case.  I recommended a transcoder instead of a conversion chassis, and a CRT_Emudriver-compatible card instead of an ArcadeVGA.  In both case I recommended the cheaper option.  With a little modding, you can use a CVS-287 as your transcoder for about $50, and a ATI HD4350 can be found on eBay for $20.

EDIT:  I typed that before seeing your most recent post.  No offense taken then.  Just want to leave that there to show I'm not talking about a huge expense.

[Malenko]

EDIT:  I typed that before seeing your most recent post.  No offense taken then.  Just want to leave that there to show I'm not talking about a huge expense.

Im saying I'd rather spend ZERO I cant justify $70 for a better picture if what I have is good enough, thats all. 

[rCadeGaming]

Lol.  Well, it was good enough for me too until I saw the alternative.