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Author Topic: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?  (Read 5010 times)

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SavannahLion

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2013, 08:47:16 pm »
Google Bluefruit. Probably a good candidate to get rid of the DB9.

DaveMMR

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2013, 08:52:12 pm »
Google Bluefruit. Probably a good candidate to get rid of the DB9.

This? http://hackaday.com/2013/09/24/announcing-adafruits-bluefruit/

(I had to weed through links to beer and blueberries...)

SavannahLion

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2013, 10:52:44 pm »
Google Bluefruit. Probably a good candidate to get rid of the DB9.

This? http://hackaday.com/2013/09/24/announcing-adafruits-bluefruit/

(I had to weed through links to beer and blueberries...)

There's blueberries there?

Paul Olson

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2013, 12:35:33 am »
If there are games you really want to play, finding space for the panels is not a big problem. Finishing all of the panels is a different story.

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2013, 05:55:50 am »
If your playing an intense game, the last thing you want is to get killed due to response delays in wireless controls.
Or even batteries running out as your about to kill the end boss
...as well as the whole aspect of having to work out a charging scheme.


 Paul has an entire wall dedicated to controllers (and for most non gamer woman, that wouldnt fly too well, as its not very 'pretty' :P   )    Even put into panels, the extra wood work, would still equate to a wall, if not more space.

 I have pretty much the same stash..   Maybe more... but Pauls pics are cut off, and who knows if hes hiding more controllers & panels elsewhere.

 The modular makes swaps even more time consuming, and a pain...  but, you can at least get to play a panel without any compromises.    If you only had to swap a few controllers, it may not be an issue.   But a wall worth..  its a different story.


Quote
Your animated gif example is 3 panels, of which 1 is a frankenpanel. Xeth-head said he's do FIVE panels.  In what world is doing the math and construction of 5 separate panels joined onto 1 bingo ball dispenser easier than making 2 or 3 swappable panels?

  Good things are not always Easy.  In fact, the most difficult things, are usually the most rewarding.   I personally love the challenge of designing and building things that do not exist.

  I said, if I were to do a vertical rotator, in a cab shape, it would probably have to have at least 5 sides.   Thats partly due to the number of controllers Id want to put on it... and partly, to give the center enough space to actually house deep controllers internally.   Of course, Ive not tried a scale mock up to see if thats even feasible.   

 I originally did a triangle mockup, realizing that there was no space for deep controllers.  Thought about a 4 way, but there wasnt enough space for all the controllers I wanted to use.  Decided on a 6way pedestal, based on the size needed, ease of the geometry, and the maximum number of panels that could be used without any comfort or technical issues.

 
 But, Ive since changed my mind about the standing thing...   so it will be a horizontal rotator, possibly with 6 or 8 panels, and each panel might have the ability to flip over... or be spun around, giving twice the mount of possible controller configurations.



Quote
How long would it take to lift up a magnetically or industrial velcro'ed panel, unplug 2 or 3 DB9 connectors. Plug in 2 or 3 DB9 connectors, and sit control panel back on cabinet. This time could be reduced by having the DB9 connectors line up on the bottom of the panel.

 Such connectors are very unfriendly to tons of connections and dis-connections.   You typically dont change your monitor 20x a day.   Nor are they smooth and easy to connect.  Some are way too tight.  But even typical DB9, the tolerances are very high for mating.  Meaning, you would have to be a master machinist, and have expensive linear bearing slides, in order for a slide-in-place locking system.   Otherwise, everything will be done via hand... and eventually, those tiny wires will break from all the moving.   Furthermore, that 9pins.   Not many things can be done with 9pins..  unless your buying a separate USB encoder for Every panel you make..  which would be quite expensive.  Especially cause you would have to buy the more expensive encoders for all the analog controllers / trackballs / spinners.. etc.

 The Arcades used the Jamma slot connectors, because they are huge.. and so do not have tight tolerances.  (slides in easy, even if your blindfolded)  The wires are large, and less likely to break from pulling boards on and off for repairs, cleanings, and game swaps. 

 But even those connectors are low in pins...  and I believe they may be a bit expensive.   Also, you may need to find the male ends... or have a circuitboard place make you custom male solderboards.


 Anyways, the highest bit of accuracy in a rotating control panel is the locking mechanism.   I tried a pin system, but I didnt have the skills and tools for perfect accuracy needed.    I then decided to make a disc brake system, using a modified vice grip.   When properly clamped, nothing could make it move.   Still, theres similar ways to make something like this in a more compact and pleasing way.   A combination of cable driven spring pins, and a pressure brake lock.


Quote
how long would it take to tilting up the base of the monitor, opening the coin door area, rotating to the desired panel, locking the panel, closing the coin door, tilting the monitor back in place.

Now how much more time does one take over the other? even if it took about the same time (which it probably would) how much easier is the design and implementation of one over the other?


 Your over exaggerating again.  If the LCD panel is on a track, it will auto rise as the panel is rotated.  The rotation would take 5 to 15 seconds max, on a cab which has a need for a pull out,  """IF"""  you have the pull out section on a simple spring lock.   Opening the coin door to reach for latches, would be a dumb idea to for a rotator.

 On the other hand... you have a more traditional swap panel setup.. and your probably doing just that.  Open coin door.. unclench the spring clips, drag panel off, while wrestling to disconnect all the connectors... drag new panel out... put the old panel back, grunt the new panel in place, attach those horrid connectors again... and then reach up into the 'blood sacrifice' box, and snap the clasps back in place.

 Being a former arcade manager, I HATE coindoor entry to control panels, with a passion.

 I never understood why people with swap panels didnt make an external release.  Its not like you have to worry about theft of the controller in own your house..  and even then, you could easily put a key lock in a discrete place, such as under the CP lip.


Quote
I think the major issue here is how many panels would you actually need. 5 seems far fetched, the standard 2 player 8 way and 7 buttons takes care of a TON of games. Is the plan to not use just the neogeo layout for standard jamma games? Realistically, excluding various wheel panels (your driving cab should be dedicated IMO) 3 should cover pretty much everything which to mean would eliminate the need for a rotating panel.

 You pretty much answered your own statements.

 If your doing a Streetfighter panel.. theres little need for a rotator.

 But if you want to play Tron as well.. then you need a trigger stick and spinner.
 Assault (one of the best tank games ever), you need Two 4-way trigger sticks.
 SuperSprint..  2 to 3 optical wheels.
 Marble Madness   2 trackballs.
 Terminator 2   -   Two T2 guns with recoil coils.
 
 And driving game can be played in standup mode.   Many were made in sitdown and standup cabs.  But how many people have room for a dedicated dual driving cabinet?   And if you decide you will only ever drive alone.. (as you have no friends?)  ..thats still a lot of space dedicated to one kind of game.   Space that not everyone can afford.

 Yet that still begs the question how you will play 3 player Supersprint?  4 player Warlords, 4 player HotRod, and many other unique and fun games that use interesting controllers.

 Also, if you want to play a 360 degree racer... how will you play Spy Hunter?   Spyhunter needs you to work the shifter, steering, gas, and usually two weapons at once... sometimes all of them.   Machine guns, Smoke, Oil, Missiles.  Trying to use buttons that are away from the wheel.. isnt going to work well at all.   Furthermore, Spy Hunters wheel itself, is so much different in feel than a typical PC or even arcade analog wheel.   Its specifically designed to be slammed full force, for bumping the baddies.  The faster you move the wheel.. the more force that is applied on impact.. and thus the enemy will be bumped further away.  Bump to slowly, and they will either not be phased, will not be moved far, part of their bump power cancels yours out, and or their bump is more powerful.. and so moves you instead.  So, IMO, the original wheel is required to play this game.

 Same for StarWars.   Theres No controller that can play this game in a fun and accurate manor than the original. Period.
Starwars could be used for Spyhunter... in that it has enough buttons... However, its not quite as Sturdy, nor as nice a feel for that particular game.   Also, you would have to hook a pot to a pedal set, cause controlling the gas via wrist roll is too clunky, and will easily get you killed in this highly precise and brutally difficulty game.


 Then theres basic stuff.. like Wico Leafswitches vs Micros.   And custom layouts, such as a perfect Asteroids Deluxe button configuration..  as well as Defender layout with real 2way mini stick.   And 4 & 8 way wico leaf joysticks.   Robotron just doesnt operate will without the real Wicos.  And classics dont control nor feel good without the leaf controls.  Especially fast fire games.. where micros are so much more fatiguing.

 The All-in-One  controller solutions just dont hit the mark.   They may save space.. but they dont give you the feel and control of the originals.  Nor are they built with the same level of industrial durability, and thus high quality feel.


 So, your perspective probably comes from your younger age.. where you didnt experience these different games in person.. and dont really know what your missing... and why people go to such great lengths to get the matching setup down pat.

 
 These games in their original form, were like the most expensive and elite sports cars...  and when you put the wrong controls on them,  it changes them into car that been in a serious accident.   It never performs the same way.  The mechanics dont respond quick or tight.. theres slop and delay, and you cant make the car do what you want and or Need it to do.  Therefore, your enjoyment is squashed.  (And if it were a car, your crashing into a tree due to a mechanical issue would really tick you off)   Finally, if you have decided you cant play this game at all.. because everyone said not to install the controllers, due to looks... you see the car sitting pretty in the gameroom (mame game list) ... but you cant drive it because theres no steering wheel, pedals, nor shifter.  All you do is end up weeping internally.


 To close... you just cant tell me what my, or others passions and or sacrifices should be.   Just as I dont tell people they Should love martial arts and do it 5hrs every day.  Nor tell them how to do it, and what methods they should or shouldnt use.  Especially if Im pretty new into the arts, and dont even know the history, depth, and reasons, for the multiple arts unique techniques and training methods.

 We each have our own levels of passions and desires, and you should accept and embrace that fact, rather than trying to change that.  You cant change Me. Nor can you change others.  The only person you Can change, is yourself.  And that SHOULD be good enough for you.  Im sure you dont like it when someone tries to tell you how to think, feel, and do things...  and puts you down for being what they consider 'crazy', 'unnecessary',  'a waste of time & money', 'childish'...etc...

 So in a most basic example, Im saying, that if someone says they Loved Tron as a kid, and its still their favorite game.. dont tell them your opinion that Tron Sticks are ugly on a control panel.  It has no bearing, is negative, and its not going to change their passion about that game.  And ruining that passion, over your penchant for how someone elses cab looks, would be a crime indeed.





« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 06:11:41 am by Xiaou2 »

DaveMMR

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2013, 08:16:55 am »
Such connectors are very unfriendly to tons of connections and dis-connections.   You typically dont change your monitor 20x a day.   

Who's swapping panels 20 times a day?

You know, you' give these rousing speeches about how you love these games and they deserved to be played properly, etc. but you don't seem to want to play them for very long considering you have a constant need to spin to another controller every other five minutes.

Typically with swappapble panels, you have a regular joystick panel. You swap it out for the occasional game that uses unique controls. And while it's on there, maybe you'll check out a couple of other games that use that control. And that's maybe what's good about swappable panels - they teach you to spend time and enjoy the games a little more.

(P.S. - This isn't an anti-rot stance btw. If you want to build it because you enjoy the challenge and the mechanics and the 'coolness factor', have at it. But let's stop pretending it's for "love of the game." Because if you really need to keep spinning it, you're really not enjoying the game at all.)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 08:24:19 am by DaveMMR »

Malenko

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2013, 08:57:59 am »
I cant quote that book, but let me touch on a few points, in order:
If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything? :laugh:

My DB9 was just an example, any connector (even LPT if pin count is the issue, but 9 pins is 8 wires and a ground, which is actually enough for a joystick, start, and 3 buttons)you want could be used, even numerous USB plugs if you choose, also what Dave said, you wouldn't swap 20 times I day I'd think.

I wasn't exaggerating, I think you misunderstood my point. My point was that rotating a panel and swapping a panel take about the same amount of time, but a swappable panel wouldnt take as long to design and implement.

You notice the DB9 statement, but gloss over the magnet / velcro one. Wouldn't need to open anything to pull up on a panel. Of course I don't know how practical that is, but industrial velcro holds on my control panels on my bartops.

My racing cab is a stand up cab (converted pole position). The best (In My Opinion) 2 player racing games are the twin cabs. While games like Ivan Stewards Off Road and Super Sprint are fun, I prefer more modern racers. I have a 720 degree wheel with buttons on it, and Spy Hunter is pretty great to play. It is ironic that I cant play Pole Position though. All mame needs to do is to code in a "steering center reset" button, so I can center the wheel after a crash and hit a button.
How much more space is a second cab going to take over a single cab with a 6 sided horizontally rotating control panel? 2 cabs side by side is about 5feet by 3 feet and 1 cab can go in a corner.  I think your theoretical cabinet takes up around the same amount of room.

I refuse to get into a wico, happ, etc button joystick debate, that's all preference.

Quote
"So, your perspective probably comes from your younger age.. where you didnt experience these different games in person."
I'm pretty sure I'm older than you, I'll be 35 in November.

While you were an arcade manager, I was a factory worker in an automotive plant; please stop the arcade to car comparisons. They are convoluted at best.

I thought this was a discussion on why rotating panels arent popular, not a discussion about you.

Sorry for the too long reply everyone :(
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 01:34:01 pm by Malenko »
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jimmer

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2013, 09:14:16 am »

I quite like that 2 panel design CoryBee, it could be a good solution for someone.

I'm sticking with swappable for now, but I'll keep that in mind.
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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2013, 09:35:33 am »
I think the need for panels is equally proportional to how anal retentive one is about using the EXACT controls..  I'm not saying folks should play Pole Position with a spinner or Pacman with a Happ bat handle 8-way..  but seriously some folks go WAY overboard with how many controls are necessary.  I know there are lots of unique games with specialized controls but 3 or 4 panels should cover most everything if laid out right.  I guess if somebody wants a dedicated Major Havoc panel who am I to judge?  ;D

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2013, 09:38:42 am »
Still, I have always wanted to attempt a rotating panel just for the challenge of building it and also, to impress the ladies..  :laugh2:

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2013, 10:05:48 am »
Still, I have always wanted to attempt a rotating panel just for the challenge of building it and also, to impress the ladies..  :laugh2:

I may come off as negative in my posts, but that's not my intent. I encourage you to try, and document everything. If you can come up with a way to simplify or something of that nature, it'll make it easier for the next guy. I just feel that next to a generalized single panel (ie NOT frankenpanel) swappable is a better alternative to a rotating one. Feel free to prove me wrong though, I'd love to follow your progress.
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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2013, 12:02:33 pm »
oh if I was going to do a rotating panel it would be WAY down the road.. one of those bucket list sort of things.   I'd rather build a dedicated sit down sim cabinet first, then maybe a dedicated vertical cabinet, cocktail table or bartop.  I've got plenty of things on my "To Do" list and rotating panels isn't really at the top of it.  At this rate I'll be building it for my grandchildren.. and I don't even have children yet.   ;D   Actually, I'd rather devise a way for a cabinet to be against the way, and have one side open like a door, revealing shelves with swapable panels.  That would be more practical assuming you used an LCD monitor and had all that unused empty space.  Maybe hold the panels on with quick release hood pins.


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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2013, 12:18:14 pm »
Only skimmed the thread, but a lot of the drawings here resemble the Sybil build.
http://home.comcast.net/~mshaker/marks_arcade_001.htm

Watch the quicktime movie....if you can.  My work computer can't play it.  :(

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2013, 01:39:19 pm »
I had given the idea of a contained system with multiple control panels a thought before and this is what I came up with.

At the push of a button or more preferably switching to the proper gamelist would make control panel one sink to the bottom of the cabinet via a linear actuator while control panel two would come in from the back and lock into place via a separate linear actuator.

As reference to by the quick paint "rendering" (lol)




I like this. Now how would a dummy like me make it?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 01:43:14 pm by marioxb »

jimmer

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2013, 01:47:23 pm »
Only skimmed the thread, but a lot of the drawings here resemble the Sybil build.
http://home.comcast.net/~mshaker/marks_arcade_001.htm

Very impressive. Not sure how I've manage to miss this build up to now.

No foot long tron sticks or steering wheels though.
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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2013, 02:03:19 pm »
I like this. Now how would a dummy like me make it?

Proper way would be to use linear actuator$ and guide rail$.

You might be able to pull it off with power window assemblies, but it will be a challenge to make the CP solid in place.

The CPs in those pics need the bottom part of the monitor bezel attached to them so the joysticks will clear.

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2013, 03:51:04 pm »
I like this. Now how would a dummy like me make it?

Proper way would be to use linear actuator$ and guide rail$.

You might be able to pull it off with power window assemblies, but it will be a challenge to make the CP solid in place.

The CPs in those pics need the bottom part of the monitor bezel attached to them so the joysticks will clear.

I thought my design was a nice clean way, albeit expensive, to do a multiple cp cabinet. Also gives the option of automation. The cabinet body I made is something I did in paint, has no bearing on reality and looks nothing like any I have made. So you would have to build accordingly.

 :cheers:

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2013, 09:28:44 pm »
Well it's just that all these words like actuators, guide rails, power window assemblies? Uhh what? Needs to muuuuuuuuuuuuch more simpler for me. As Michael Scott said on the Office, "Explain it to me as if I was five."

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2013, 09:38:17 pm »
Quote

If your playing an intense game, the last thing you want is to get killed due to response delays in wireless controls.
Or even batteries running out as your about to kill the end boss
...as well as the whole aspect of having to work out a charging scheme.

Wow when you get entrenched you really dig yourself deep.

I didn't suggest the wireless controller to make the entire thing wireless. I suggested it to limit the wire count.

To use the Rot as an example, if a metal pipe is used as the pivot then split the pipe and isolate each side. Add a couple of spring loaded brushes and a fat cap to smooth the power and you now have a full 360 rotating Rot panel.

To use the Swap design. Use a set of off centered magnets (or use a bridge rectifier) and run a low voltage through the magnets. Or play dangerous and have a bone simple wall socket and plug. Those things have a nearly infinite life span.

either way results in a stupidly simple set up that pales compared to the engineering required to get a Rot panel designed and built.

Or, you can go balls crazy and use an inducting coil to supply power. On the side with the Rot or somewhere along the bottom with a Swap.

No matter what, a battery is not even remotely required or desired.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 10:18:53 pm by SavannahLion »

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2013, 09:56:37 pm »
Well it's just that all these words like actuators, guide rails, power window assemblies? Uhh what? Needs to muuuuuuuuuuuuch more simpler for me. As Michael Scott said on the Office, "Explain it to me as if I was five."

Actuator is the thing that pushes the control panel (cp1) up and down or (cp2) left and right. The guide rails is what you would put into places that the Control panels would slide on to add stability and strength to the whole system.


marioxb

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2013, 12:33:48 pm »
Ok, now I just need someone to build it for me. I have no idea where to begin or get the parts for something like that.

Xiaou2

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2013, 04:20:49 pm »
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If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything?

 You mean, like the custom fully working Starwars yoke I finished?

 You mean, like the custom fully working Super Hangon controller I finished?  (with a modded magnetic reed switch, cause mame team wouldnt make the games music select screen controllable with a Normal controller)

 You mean, like the custom fully working Sinistar joystick I built?

 You mean like the Fully Functional 2 player control panel I built with custom dual rollerblade bearing spinner I made?

 You mean like the Fully working Disc Brake assy. on the Prototpe rotating CP?

 You mean like the metal Kick pole training device I finished?

 You mean like the 6 section sandbag unit that the top section can slide or lock in place, that works full?

 You mean the Custom built wheel platforms I put on my Drill Press and Tablesaw?

 Or maybe you mean the restoration I made on an Ice Cold Beer machine, and sold it for $800 ?

 No?  How about the Scan I did on a local collectors Discs of Tron backdrop, and sent in to mame?


 Maybe your referring to my  multi-sliding-parts-table  shelf system, about 4' x 4' x 8' ,with about 7 table-shelves?

 Thats just a slice of the completed projects Ive done.   Of course, getting sicker and having no energy for the last +8 years or so, didnt help..  as I found I became gluten intolerant, as well as can no longer eat eggs, dairy, or soy.  That and losing a few jobs at varying times.


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My DB9 was just an example, any connector (even LPT if pin count is the issue, but 9 pins is 8 wires and a ground, which is actually enough for a joystick, start, and 3 buttons)you want could be used, even numerous USB plugs if you choose, also what Dave said, you wouldn't swap 20 times I day I'd think.

 As Ive said, both of those kinds of connectors are not suited to a large number of connect and disconnects.  Its not how many times you swap a day.  Its the pure number of uses period.    And, they are not very smooth nor easy to hook and unhook.   

 A printer cable has two specific ends.  The larger end, that hooks to the printer itself, is more robust, and better suited to the task.  But then your still gona have to find the male mate, and solder a ton of tiny pins... and 25 pins still isnt  a lot.

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I wasn't exaggerating, I think you misunderstood my point. My point was that rotating a panel and swapping a panel take about the same amount of time, but a swappable panel wouldnt take as long to design and implement.

 Sorry, but its simply not true.  Most swappable panels are not so easy to change over.  And since theres no pull out and put away time... your looking at a 2-3 minute saving per change.   VS a mere few seconds to rotate.

Quote
You notice the DB9 statement, but gloss over the magnet / velcro one. Wouldn't need to open anything to pull up on a panel. Of course I don't know how practical that is, but industrial velcro holds on my control panels on my bartops.

 Velcro is a caveman hack.  Its will raise your panel... and make it difficult in a large mounting system, to deal with.  Plus it will degrade over time and need to be replaced.  Theres far better ways to lock panels down.


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My racing cab is a stand up cab (converted pole position). The best (In My Opinion) 2 player racing games are the twin cabs. While games like Ivan Stewards Off Road and Super Sprint are fun, I prefer more modern racers. I have a 720 degree wheel with buttons on it, and Spy Hunter is pretty great to play.

 
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It is ironic that I cant play Pole Position though. All mame needs to do is to code in a "steering center reset" button, so I can center the wheel after a crash and hit a button.

 Its not Ironic.  Trying to play a game like Supersprint that way, would be a horrible way to play that game.   The whole fun and challenge behind supersprint, is being able to whip the wheel as fast as you can... let go... then stop it after several turns, at just the correct moment.

 Pole position isnt as extreme as that.  However, if it were modded to play with a standard wheel.. it would probably be too easy.  The difficulty in PP,  is mostly the sensitivity of the wheel.

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How much more space is a second cab going to take over a single cab with a 6 sided horizontally rotating control panel? 2 cabs side by side is about 5feet by 3 feet and 1 cab can go in a corner.  I think your theoretical cabinet takes up around the same amount of room.

 That was a comparison to something like Pacmame, vs a standard cab.   In my case, even two or 3 cabs would not be enough to have all the controllers available.   In my design, it will have a couch like seat for 2 or more players, so its comparable to a dual racer sit down.   But it will play much more than just driving games, without needing the space for additional standup cabs.

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I refuse to get into a wico, happ, etc button joystick debate, that's all preference.
Quote

 Sorry, but its not preference.  Its mechanical advantage.  Its pure and scientific.  You dont see Olympic runners wearing combat boots to a race.  Theres a reason for that.  ... And thats one of the Biggest reasons why I scrapped my proto.. because I made that realization, and so everything needed to be redesigned all over again.


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I'm pretty sure I'm older than you, I'll be 35 in November.

 I just passed 40 in August.   :'(  I also live in a place where the arcades were few and huge... and there was never any video game crash.  Ive pretty much played all the classics, and even many rare machines, at that time period... as well as have played many more, in collectors houses and the local game museum.

 When I was like 25, I was managing an arcade of 42 or so games, many of which rotated from store to store.  Got to see and experience all the various controllers and inner workings of these mechanisms.


Quote
While you were an arcade manager, I was a factory worker in an automotive plant; please stop the arcade to car comparisons. They are convoluted at best.

  Theres little difference in mechanics of quality arcade assemblies.  But beyond that fact, its the actual experience with the games themselves.  How they play, feel, and what the special traits of the mechanics do for the the game experience.

 Furthermore, assembling parts or pressing a button all day long, isnt the same as diagnosing and trying to repair games and their many mechanical issues.   Its not rocket science.  But the experiences give you new eyes to how these things really function, and the reasoning behind every facet of the parts and methods that were used.


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I thought this was a discussion on why rotating panels arent popular, not a discussion about you.

Sorry for the too long reply everyone :(

 My initial discussion was on Rotating control panels and my personal experience with them.  You have chosen to challenge, insult, and attack me personally... as always.. and then whine when I put down a return reply.

 I think you should consider not wasting others time, as well as your own, by replying to me..  considering you dont know how to be civil, rather than just being a giant Dick.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 04:30:07 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2013, 04:56:31 pm »
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If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything?
waka waka

Justin?

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2013, 06:48:47 pm »
Guess we're in petty bicker mode :/ Fuggit, I'll feed you.
Quote
If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything?
Like all the projects I said I finished and never posted pix or build threads to?
yes

As for connectors, I wasnt citing a specific example, just giving a generalized one. I'm sure there's some connector out there that will be useful, even something like cat5 and RJ45 jacks. As for swappable panels not being easy to swap, if your theoretical rotating one is perfect, so is my theoretical swapping one. As for Velcro, you could route away some material, or offset the gap in some other way. The very slight raise on my bartops is not noticeable. I had also said maybe Magnets, but theres TONS of ways to achieve this. Im a network engineer not a mechanical one. I'd more inclined to listen to Neph or Cory before I'd advocate anyone listen to me for something like that. Giving an example doesnt mean Im saying its the best or only choice.

Its not Ironic.
Ok you lost me, please explain to me like I'm a 5 year old why not being able to play Pole Position on a Pole Position machine is not ironic. As for Happ Wico etc, it still boils down to preference. Yeah Athletes might wear the right shoe for the job, but they dont all wear Nike, some wear ADIDAS, Reebok, etc

I just passed 40 in August.
Holy ---fudgesicle---, act your age then. Ok that's me being the aforementioned giant dick. However Im only slightly younger than you, and I lucked out enough to play a great number of real arcade machines in their prime which just disproves your theory that Im so young I didnt get to.

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  Furthermore, assembling parts or pressing a button all day long, isnt the same as diagnosing and trying to repair games and their many mechanical issues.   Its not rocket science.  But the experiences give you new eyes to how these things really function, and the reasoning behind every facet of the parts and methods that were used.
You're right, working in an automotive factory for a decade is a cake walk compared to managing a chuck e cheese.

Quote
You have chosen to challenge, insult, and attack me personally... as always.. and then whine when I put down a return reply.
I didnt see a single insult in anything I posted, a playful jab with the"how come you never finish anything with that sinister SMILEY FACE at the end. If you can quote me in this thread insulting you (this reply doesnt count, neither does Xeth, thats more of an inside joke than an insult!) I'll gladly apologize and mean it. I for one think Ive been pretty civil. The bulk of my replies has been about the the subject at hand, not you.
 :cheers:
If you are helping someone and expecting something in return, you are doing business not kindness.

Xiaou2

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2013, 08:34:58 am »

Not having build info up doesnt mean they were not completed.   A lot of stuff I took down, due to people who wanted to be negative, bash and insult me.   Im not the only one, and I question whether to share anything new I build as a result.


Quote
As for connectors, I wasnt citing a specific example, just giving a generalized one. I'm sure there's some connector out there that will be useful, even something like cat5 and RJ45 jacks.


  I was stating my knowledge and experience with connectors, based on your theory of what should work well.  As a network engineer, Im somewhat surprised to hear you appoint RJ45. They can be notoriously painful to plug and unplug... and cat5 only has 8wires.  Far better to use a printer cable with 25 pins, even if its not perfect for slide-ablity connection.

 The point being, we were discussing the ease of control panel swapping.. as well as the challenges of the rotating cp vs the swappables... and even the modulars.   Each has its strengths and weaknesses.  Each has its costs, space, and cost differences. Each has a valid reason why they may be utilized... even if you do may not understand or agree with it.

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As for swappable panels not being easy to swap, if your theoretical rotating one is perfect, so is my theoretical swapping one.

 This has nothing to do with perfect.  It has to do with lost time & manual labor efforts.   Even with a quick externally triggered spring lock control panel...  you still have to set the old panel down, open the cab, dig out and lift the correct panel without grinding the sides up, damaging the corners or controllers, then lift up to install, and finally, lift and slide put the other panel back into the cabinet.

 A rotator does not require any furniture moving (lifting of masses and swapping).  Its an effortless and quick action.. rather than a chore, to swap controls.


 This isnt Theoretical.  Its factual.


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As for Velcro, you could route away some material, or offset the gap in some other way. The very slight raise on my bartops is not noticeable. I had also said maybe Magnets, but theres TONS of ways to achieve this. Im a network engineer not a mechanical one. I'd more inclined to listen to Neph or Cory before I'd advocate anyone listen to me for something like that. Giving an example doesnt mean Im saying its the best or only choice.

 Sorry, but the way you posted made it sound like you were an expert on what to do, and why.

 Magnets may be an interesting thing to try.. so long as they are shielded so they dont erase your bank cards.
But  magnets are also tough to remove without a  wedge-unlock mechanism.  Which if your going that far, might as well just make a cabled release - auto spring-lock setup.

 Velcro may be ok for a bartop.. but magnets would probably be better than velcro, in that they wont degrade nor pick up gunk like velcos crud-collecting fuzz.


Quote from: Xiaou2 on Yesterday at 04:20:49 pm

    Its not Ironic.

Quote
please explain to me like I'm a 5 year old why not being able to play Pole Position on a Pole Position machine

 hah.  Sorry, I breezed over that it was a PP machine.   It surely is sad that PP cant be played.  Why not put a spinner on it?   A spinner takes up little space, could be mounted horizontally on the front of the CP, and would play 1000x better than button or code-hacked pot wheels.


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Holy ---fudgesicle---, act your age then. Ok that's me being the aforementioned giant dick. However Im only slightly younger than you, and I lucked out enough to play a great number of real arcade machines in their prime which just disproves your theory that Im so young I didnt get to.

 Im not the one launching childish insults and attacks, so I believe you should consider than when reviewing your own age :P

 Also, as I said, it was a guess... due to your responses.  Then again, I played Robotron as a kid.. never knowing what was under the CP... nor even getting good enough to realize why that was important.  At that time, it wasnt one of my Favs due to how young I was.. and how it ate all my lives in sheer seconds.   Games like Sinistar however, even being very difficult.. I clearly remember how the special controller on it made a huge impact with accuracy, over other typical analog games.  Even without seeing under the hood.. you could easily feel it.

 I also didnt understand leaf switches, even back then.  Didnt like them till I finally learned, within maybe the last 14 yrs, how to use them properly, to get the advantages the attain, in certain games.


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You're right, working in an automotive factory for a decade is a cake walk compared to managing a chuck e cheese.

 Never claimed that at all.  Some Factory work sucks.  I used to work in a PCB factory, doing a monotonous job of lithography.

 I was claiming that having mechanical experience with the actual machines and controllers, gives you a certain level of awareness and experience that others may not have.  Hence the reason, you may not realize the value of a certain custom specialty controller, over a generic so/so controller.

 
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doesnt count, neither does Xeth

 Theres a little thing about jabs.. is that if you deliver enough of them, eventually your probably going to end up eating a cross.   

DaveMMR

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2013, 12:00:55 pm »

Quote
Holy ---fudgesicle---, act your age then. Ok that's me being the aforementioned giant dick. However Im only slightly younger than you, and I lucked out enough to play a great number of real arcade machines in their prime which just disproves your theory that Im so young I didnt get to.

 Im not the one launching childish insults and attacks, so I believe you should consider than when reviewing your own age :P

 :blowup: Okay, so I'm not the only one who assumed you were in your early twenties then. Because with age comes less care about what random people think of you. Plus a lot of other things you say just makes you seem way younger than 40. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but it's something you may want to keep in mind.

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2013, 12:34:57 pm »
Sorry, but its simply not true.  Most swappable panels are not so easy to change over.  And since theres no pull out and put away time... your looking at a 2-3 minute saving per change.   VS a mere few seconds to rotate.

2-3 minutes per change?  I have a prototype swappable system I use for CP mockups and controls testing, and it takes maybe 30 seconds* to swap a panel, if that.

2-3 minutes to swap a panel sounds like a broken design to me...

* In the interest of Science(TM) I just timed it.  It actually took only 15 seconds to swap a panel.  That included removing/storing the existing panel on a shelf under my test bench, retrieving the new panel, and setting it into place.  Now I could see it taking a bit longer on a proper cab, especially depending on how the panels are stored/connected.  But if it takes longer than 60 seconds, then that seems like a broken design to me.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 12:43:44 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2013, 01:24:33 pm »
Not that I need to point out the obvious here but..  once you factor in all the pros and cons much of what you guys are arguing about comes down to personal preference.  In that case its pretty pointless to argue.  The amount of time it would take to unlock a rot panel versus swap a panel really is negligible.. 2 minutes.. 5 minutes.. does it really matter?  The point is to enjoy these games and hopefully socialize with friends and family in the process.. If swapping a panel affords you the time to share a story, talk smack, grab another beer, etc.. its really not time wasted  ;D  Granted, this thread IS about discussing the merits of rotating panels but getting into a pissing contest isn't really getting either one of you any where so just shake hands and agree to disagree  ;)   

Malenko

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2013, 01:41:08 pm »
Quote
(even LPT if pin count is the issue, but 9 pins is 8 wires and a ground, which is actually enough for a joystick, start, and 3 buttons)
As Ive said, both of those kinds of connectors are not suited to a large number of connect and disconnects.  Its not how many times you swap a day.  Its the pure number of uses period.    And, they are not very smooth nor easy to hook and unhook.   

A printer cable has two specific ends.  The larger end, that hooks to the printer itself, is more robust, and better suited to the task.  But then your still gona have to find the male mate, and solder a ton of tiny pins... and 25 pins still isnt  a lot.
LPT = Parallel Port = "printer cable"

25 pins is a lot, that's 24 connections and a common ground. That's enough for 2players with an 8 way ( 8 ) and the SF layout (12) and 2 starts and 2 coins(4) total (24). I wouldnt think that many panels would require more than that many connections. You could also have some sort of admin panel that has coin and start and eliminate the need for those, or even coin mechs instead of coin buttons, or shifted keys


Derail warning!
As for jabs, you def need thicker skin. Chad doesnt pop a fuse when people bring up the MDF question, I dont get pissy when people bring up me losing 1 of my 3 pole position cabs off the back of a truck. If you cant laugh at yourself and your mistakes what can you laugh at? Also Lennox Lewis went 42(32)-2-1 all he ever did was jab, last unified champ I believe but Im not a big boxing fan.  Also, not having build info up means you aren't helping the community. My Pole position conversion isnt the best but it shows what you can do with converting a PP into a Multi racer, I hope one day it encourages someone to do what I did, only do it better.

And you may not have seen the panel, but I dont think a spinner would work.  I cant mount it in the front, because 1 its be impossible to use and 2 the metal forms a V with a hinge at the bottom and I wouldnt want to drill through all that and make de-conversion impossible. Cant mount it on the CP itself, theres just no room with the 4 way shifter there.

/derail

shponglefan:
Thanks for giving it a real world test , I figured "about a minute" and I think on an actual cab thats prolly about right. Thing is I figure about the same time frame for a rotating panel, I just figured it would take a longer time to design and build the rotating panel over swappable ones. Other factor I considered was if you suddenly have a hankering to make a new panel you wouldn't have to either axe an existing one from your rotation (PUN!) or redesign your "rotator" to compensate for another panel. I guess thats a very round about way of saying the modular or swappable is much more flexible.

Brandon:
You are dead on balls it does come down to preference. There is a difference between "argue" and "debate" , I wouldnt want someone to start making a rotating panel thinking its easy peasy then be stuck with an unfinished cab and be either broke or discouraged from trying again. If you start with just a panel, and later expand to a swappable one, it just makes more sense to me. Im a bigger fan of multiple machines, preferably dedicated ones :)


If you are helping someone and expecting something in return, you are doing business not kindness.

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2013, 03:07:05 pm »
Im a bigger fan of multiple machines, preferably dedicated ones :)


+1

Can't wait until I get a bigger house of my own. Huge home cinema + Arcades! Mostly MAME I guess, but driving, fighting, etc. on different cabinets.

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2013, 08:52:07 am »
Same here! My wife said our next house will have a basement and a dedicated arcade. Right now, all I have room for is two stand up cabs and a pool table.

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Re: Rotating control panels in the CNC age... why so rare still?
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2013, 03:18:43 pm »
The best things of multiple arcade games is the music of all games running at once!
All the beeps and blurps is what sells it for me.