48-in-1 boards, 60-in-1 boards, 1000-in-1 boards, etc.

[Level42]

I don't think the MAME devs support that we are running a couple of thousand on our MAME cab.




Come on people get real....


This is SO hypocrite

[FrizzleFried]

I think the current policy of not permitting linking to sources where to locate these boards is probably the best bet.  To outright ban discussion is a little over-reaching IMHO.

[SavannahLion]

We actually pay an insane extra tax on blank CD-R's and DVD-Rs etc for it !!! (Great if you are backing up your OWN files, you pay for something that you are NOT copying.....)

In the U.S. we pay a similar "tax" on CD-R's. Not sure about the DVD-R's, but I know we have to pay royalties on DVD-R's that we don't pay on DVD+R's. If I recall correctly, this was actually a tax created by lobbyists and set into law so there's no way around it for the time being.

When I visited the US and my family there, my cousin was surprised that I was carrying a set of copied DVD's and CDs with me. I explained him that I didn't want to risk losing my originals, so I left them at home. He told me I could get into serious problems at customs if they saw it. IMHO this is weird. But it indicates the difference in mind-setting between countries....

I've heard of the same thing. But I've never heard of anyone ever getting stopped at customs for carrying around a book of CD-R's. Maybe people are referring to the trafficking of counterfeit merchandise. People who are trying to shove thousands of items, not 200 or so. However, I do know of people who get slapped with extra charges such as "pirating", counterfeiting, etc when they get pulled over with CD-R's in the vehicle. Trumped up charges to discard so the other charges will stick.

but I think there should be laws that say that some things, (Like ancient computer programs=over 20 years) should be free of copyright after a certain period of time.

Some of those computer programs are still in full operation after 20 years. I was floored at a job interview once when they showed me that they were still running a System 360 still running most of its original software. I admit the copyright law is seriously outdated, but saying that 20 is a cut off date to expire copyright on software is a little too broad sweeping.

Conversion kits such as Clay's MW kit run on the original game hardware, with an additional PCB containing extra menu code, bankswitching etc.  these are clearly NOT emulation based, although their legality can be questioned.

It might fall under Galoob vs Nintendo, the Ms. Pac-Man case (settled out of court?) or another court case involving add-on daughter boards (forget who was involved). In other words, Clay's kit most likely doesn't violate any laws.

[shardian]

I've heard of the same thing. But I've never heard of anyone ever getting stopped at customs for carrying around a book of CD-R's. Maybe people are referring to the trafficking of counterfeit merchandise. People who are trying to shove thousands of items, not 200 or so. However, I do know of people who get slapped with extra charges such as "pirating", counterfeiting, etc when they get pulled over with CD-R's in the vehicle. Trumped up charges to discard so the other charges will stick.

With the introduction of iTunes, napster, etc you can now legally download and burn mp3's. So at a customs check you could just say you got your songs from iTunes.

[Zero_Hour]

I don't think the MAME devs support that we are running a couple of thousand on our MAME cab.

I think the MAME devs primary concern if for how their code is utilized, particularly when it is used commercially for profit without licensing.

[leapinlew]

I've heard of the same thing. But I've never heard of anyone ever getting stopped at customs for carrying around a book of CD-R's. Maybe people are referring to the trafficking of counterfeit merchandise. People who are trying to shove thousands of items, not 200 or so. However, I do know of people who get slapped with extra charges such as "pirating", counterfeiting, etc when they get pulled over with CD-R's in the vehicle. Trumped up charges to discard so the other charges will stick.

They do get stopped for carrying DVD's though, which is what he was talking about.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1944531&page=1

[shardian]

I've heard of the same thing. But I've never heard of anyone ever getting stopped at customs for carrying around a book of CD-R's. Maybe people are referring to the trafficking of counterfeit merchandise. People who are trying to shove thousands of items, not 200 or so. However, I do know of people who get slapped with extra charges such as "pirating", counterfeiting, etc when they get pulled over with CD-R's in the vehicle. Trumped up charges to discard so the other charges will stick.

They do get stopped for carrying DVD's though, which is what he was talking about.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1944531&page=1

[/quote]

I read an article a while back that Chinese pirateers had put out a hit contract on those dogs.

[SavannahLion]

I've heard of the same thing. But I've never heard of anyone ever getting stopped at customs for carrying around a book of CD-R's. Maybe people are referring to the trafficking of counterfeit merchandise. People who are trying to shove thousands of items, not 200 or so. However, I do know of people who get slapped with extra charges such as "pirating", counterfeiting, etc when they get pulled over with CD-R's in the vehicle. Trumped up charges to discard so the other charges will stick.

They do get stopped for carrying DVD's though, which is what he was talking about.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1944531&page=1

That article is full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and shows just how screwed up the MPAA thinking is. For instance,

Trainers say the dogs have been notifying customs agents of packages with discs in them. The packages have been opened but so far no pirated movies have been found.

I'm sure the thousands of legitimate packaging with CD/DVD's in them are being opened all for.... how many pirated movies did they find? Oh... that's right, NONE!

...[MPAA] employees are offering theater workers training to help them identify customers who might be using camcorders to make bootleg copies of films.

It's a camcorder. How hard is it to spot a camcorder being used?

....four people were caught last weekend in California, Illinois and Taipei, Taiwan, allegedly trying to videotape "Mission: Impossible III," according to the MPAA.

Who in their right mind would go see M:I3, much less videotape it?

[nostrebor]

Is that just the PC motherboard with JAMMA connectors that was posted about recently?  That was clearly an attempt to cash in on emulation cabinets..

I think that Frizz is talking about the same boards that I am interested in (for a MW).

My understanding was that Clay makes them, they are not MAME-based and Steve has the exclusive for distribution.

According to Clay (FWIW) they are not MAME based. It is true that he is heavily involved in their development, both software and hardware. He has been adamant on RGVAC that the emulation for those boards was coded by him. That is all I know on the subject.

To throw another hat into the mix... the "Target Stores" multi-game boardsets were also developed by Clay, and have varying games from totally different manufacturers. They seem to have gone to great pains to license these machines, but I still wonder?

[BobA]

Clay has has been a reputable maker of inovative pieces of equipment for quite a while and I can see how it would be possible to  come up with emulation without having to derive it from the mame code.  All the multigame fibreboard $300 k mart specials are quite a big market and probably quite profitable for big games or whatever they are called.  Can we take what we would deem a knowledgeable person's word for this and get on with it.  There is always someone who with no info will pipe up and say theat they cannot possibly be doing this without mame who has not inside info and no real knowledge of the product he is talking about.

The mame devs say it is not mame
Clay says it is not mame

Lets agree that it is not mame and get on with worthwhile discussions of these pieces of hardware since they are becoming quite popular.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Clay has has been a reputable maker of inovative pieces of equipment for quite a while and I can see how it would be possible to  come up with emulation without having to derive it from the mame code.  All the multigame fibreboard $300 k mart specials are quite a big market and probably quite profitable for big games or whatever they are called.  Can we take what we would deem a knowledgeable person's word for this and get on with it.  There is always someone who with no info will pipe up and say theat they cannot possibly be doing this without mame who has not inside info and no real knowledge of the product he is talking about.

The mame devs say it is not mame
Clay says it is not mame

Lets agree that it is not mame and get on with worthwhile discussions of these pieces of hardware since they are becoming quite popular.

 

Excellent post! 

I got my Joust Cocktail from Mike Ranger (who some may know as the Williams Guru), who also gave me a bunch of nifty Williams stuff and had some interesting notes of his conversations with Clay about MultiWilliams possibilities.,

I think it was either the April or May issue of GameRoom that featured an interview with Clay about his work with BEG and also with HanaHo. I see some interesting potential there, particularly the HanoHo board.

Cheers.

[nostrebor]

Clay has has been a reputable maker of inovative pieces of equipment for quite a while and I can see how it would be possible to  come up with emulation without having to derive it from the mame code.  All the multigame fibreboard $300 k mart specials are quite a big market and probably quite profitable for big games or whatever they are called.  Can we take what we would deem a knowledgeable person's word for this and get on with it.  There is always someone who with no info will pipe up and say theat they cannot possibly be doing this without mame who has not inside info and no real knowledge of the product he is talking about.

The mame devs say it is not mame
Clay says it is not mame

Lets agree that it is not mame and get on with worthwhile discussions of these pieces of hardware since they are becoming quite popular.

 

I was actually replying to this post:

Yeah, the guy who made the 96 in 1 is pretty easy to find.  And if he could run MAME code on a Z80 he wouldn't be coding VB in a sweatshop.

Regarding the emulation board that Clay makes that comes w/o roms.  Clay says it does not  use MAME.  I don't know that anyone has looked at it to verify that is true, but that is the claim that is made.  I'd like to see some one take a look at it, but personally I guess I have to believe him until I find out otherwise.

*I* believe that Clay writes his own code. If the MAME devs have verified that, then there you go. I didn't see Haze specifically answer that question in his posts above. Maybe there is some other source you can provide?

[Dav]

Clay has has been a reputable maker of inovative pieces of equipment for quite a while and I can see how it would be possible to  come up with emulation without having to derive it from the mame code.  All the multigame fibreboard $300 k mart specials are quite a big market and probably quite profitable for big games or whatever they are called.  Can we take what we would deem a knowledgeable person's word for this and get on with it.  There is always someone who with no info will pipe up and say theat they cannot possibly be doing this without mame who has not inside info and no real knowledge of the product he is talking about.

The mame devs say it is not mame
Clay says it is not mame

Lets agree that it is not mame and get on with worthwhile discussions of these pieces of hardware since they are becoming quite popular.

 

I was actually replying to this post:

Yeah, the guy who made the 96 in 1 is pretty easy to find.  And if he could run MAME code on a Z80 he wouldn't be coding VB in a sweatshop.

Regarding the emulation board that Clay makes that comes w/o roms.  Clay says it does not  use MAME.  I don't know that anyone has looked at it to verify that is true, but that is the claim that is made.  I'd like to see some one take a look at it, but personally I guess I have to believe him until I find out otherwise.

*I* believe that Clay writes his own code. If the MAME devs have verified that, then there you go. I didn't see Haze specifically answer that question in his posts above. Maybe there is some other source you can provide?

I don' t know of any Dev's who've said it's not MAME.  AFAIK no one has looked at it to have an educated opinion on it.

[AaronGiles]

I don' t know of any Dev's who've said it's not MAME.  AFAIK no one has looked at it to have an educated opinion on it.

Clay's stuff is not MAME.

[Dav]

I don' t know of any Dev's who've said it's not MAME.  AFAIK no one has looked at it to have an educated opinion on it.

Clay's stuff is not MAME.

That's kind of what I thought, I just wanted someone who knew something about it to say so.

[BobA]

I don' t know of any Dev's who've said it's not MAME.  AFAIK no one has looked at it to have an educated opinion on it.

Clay's stuff is not MAME.

Now there is a knowlegeable source.

Sounds like we can discuss the pros and cons and workings or non workings of the 48 in 1 and 60 in 1 and various boards in retail cabinets made with the same technology without violating MAME.

[Dav]

I don' t know of any Dev's who've said it's not MAME.  AFAIK no one has looked at it to have an educated opinion on it.

Clay's stuff is not MAME.

Now there is a knowlegeable source.

Sounds like we can discuss the pros and cons and workings or non workings of the 48 in 1 and 60 in 1 and various boards in retail cabinets made with the same technology without violating MAME.

Clays board is sold as "Programmable Multi-Game JAMMA PCB" or "the arcadeshop board"  it comes without roms to keep it legal.  It is not related to the 48 in 1 or the 60 in 1 which w/o a doubt are illegal and almost certainly mame infringing.

 

[BobA]

  It is not related to the 48 in 1 or the 60 in 1 which w/o a doubt are illegal and almost certainly mame infringing.
 

If you can prove that please do.  Otherwise your comment is just hearsay or rumour.

[FrizzleFried]

  It is not related to the 48 in 1 or the 60 in 1 which w/o a doubt are illegal and almost certainly mame infringing.
 

If you can prove that please do.  Otherwise your comment is just hearsay or rumour.

Well,  they are no doubt illegal as the ROMS are included...as for whether they are MAME or not,  it is still a little hazy... I'd say they are LIKELY MAME,  but it seems that even Haze can't say FOR SURE they are.

Can anyone point out a version of MAME that plays only a single sample as the run sound for Donkey Kong?  I just went through 10 different versions to try to identify which version may do that to try to find which version of MAME the multigame board MAY be using...every one of them play all 3 samples.

Also,  these boards use SAVE STATES to maintain scores, etc...and MAME didn't have savestate support until recently....

So...from my point of view these boards ARE illegal as they contain ROMS.... but whether or not they use MAME to play said ROMS is still a little murky to me.

[nostrebor]

I don' t know of any Dev's who've said it's not MAME.  AFAIK no one has looked at it to have an educated opinion on it.

Clay's stuff is not MAME.

And there you go. Thanks for tossing this info here.

To get back to saint's original question... Would we agree that it is safe to discuss the ins-and-outs of the non-Clay boards as long as we're not offering them up for sale or pointing at links for them? I'm interested in saint's final verdict on this. I think the discussion is interesting, but overall it may be detrimental to keep bringing up the subject, as it does give "free press" to their existence.

[BobA]

I think this could go around and around forever.  We discuss mame here constantly but we don't discuss where to obtain roms and hopefully no one has more roms then they can legally use

Let us discuss the boards and not where you get them and we will have saint's decision if he allows the threads to continue or terminates the threads.

[saint]

* saint is watching this thread for one more day

[FrizzleFried]

I think the current rules have worked thus far.  The fact of the matter is that they are popular... so popular that legitimate operations such as arcadeshop and mikesarcade are selling multicade marquees,  bezels,  sideart,  etc.   I can understand and support not allowing the advertising of these boards for various reasons but I can't imagine straight up banning their discussion.

[bfauska]

TOO popular to ignore their existence.  The cleanest place to draw the line (I think) is to say NO discussion of how/where to obtain the boards.  No other hard rules about the discussion, otherwise where else could you draw the line, nobody can say they have a multi-board in one of the machines in their game room?  That seems ridiculous.  If we allow people to even mention that they have roms (and we can't tell if it's legal or illegal possession) and ask questions about them, then we should allow people to say they have boards and ask questions about them.  If we weren't allowed to talk about things that may or may not be "stolen" how many of us would have to leave out parts of our cabinet build threads where we "borrowed" some scrap wood, wire, quick connects, etc... from work?

[BobA]

I agree with bfauska.  The boards are being used in cabs and they are becoming more popular.  We discuss mame but we do not mention where to get roms.  We even discuss problems with ROMS and mame versions but where the ROMS were obtained is not mentioned. Same as we can discuss these boards just not mention where they are obtained.  These boards are too popular to be ignored.  To not mention them would be burying our heads in the sand and it is hard to drink beer with your head in the sand.

[Ken Layton]

These boards are being freely discussed without censorship at:

http://forums.webmagic.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=416237&an=0&page=1#Post416237

[Rick]

Sorry for the necro, but in looking at these questions over the past few days, THIS THREAD looks like it has all of the heavy-hitters in it, and probably, the most respectful discussion...

Disclaimer: I thought I'd do some research, and ask my question in an existing thread rather than open a brand new one. This way, we're not opening a new can-o-worms, and adding to the number of threads on the same subject. Apologies to those who are thinking, "OH GOD, NOT THIS AGAIN, but here's the disclaimer. Yeah, I went there. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.



So, I'll get to the questions at hand:

It's been mentioned above that Clay Cowgill doesn't use MAME to run emulated games, and that the boards he sells (ArcadeSD, I believe? Confirmation respectfully requested!) do NOT come with ROMs, and this is in an attempt to keep them 'legal'. Is it fair to say that, because he has built his own emulation software, and builds a 'for profit' solution, that it is, in fact, legal?

One step further. Let's say I own an actual arcade board - let's say Galaga - and have the ability to pull the proper chips and download the ROMs from it, install them on an SD card, and run them on the above mentioned hardware, would this be considered legal?

Here's my over-arching thought. If the answers to the two questions on legality both point to "yes", what would stop someone from amassing a huge pile of working, classic arcade PCBs, backing them up and using them in an ArcadeSD board in whatever environment they choose? (I'm in Canada, and in speaking with the CRA - our Tax Agency - I understand that we would only pay tax on the profits from an actual paid arcade machine, and not some weird "you have an arcade machine! woop! woop!" tax I've heard about in different parts of the globe.)

[Sjaak]

One step further. Let's say I own an actual arcade board - let's say Galaga - and have the ability to pull the proper chips and download the ROMs from it, install them on an SD card, and run them on the above mentioned hardware, would this be considered legal?

Not sure about your first point, but I'm pretty sure that downloading the roms from your personal chips and then using those is illegal (denpending on the country you live in of course).

[Rick]

Not sure about your first point, but I'm pretty sure that downloading the roms from your personal chips and then using those is illegal (denpending on the country you live in of course).

Well, that's an interesting question. I don't know how it could be illegal - but I'm sure it's possible. I have watched numerous videos (Thanks, John's Arcade!) where he (John) has downloaded ROM backups from online sources, to repair existing EEPROM's he's owned, to fix issues with existing boards, so I would liken this to the same thing - MAYBE.

Used properly, it's the equivalent of backing up a DVD and using the backup for personal viewing instead of watching the original. Now, I understand that it is against the law (in some places) if you were sharing the copy/original, or even watching it on multiple sources at the same time, but I believe it would be legal otherwise.

Of course, IANAL. So, there's that.

[Sjaak]

Used properly, it's the equivalent of backing up a DVD and using the backup for personal viewing instead of watching the original. Now, I understand that it is against the law (in some places) if you were sharing the copy/original, or even watching it on multiple sources at the same time, but I believe it would be legal otherwise.

Here, in the Netherlands there is a distinct difference between copying a cd or dvd from personal use and copying a software program for personal use. It's legal here to copy a cd to use in your car. It's even legal to download a movie or music for personal use.

But copying software is illegal, because that would make it possible to run the same program on different systems. Not sure about using a rom download to repair a rom...probably a gray (close to white) area.

But I agree, that is doesn't make sense. If you own the original board, you should be allowed to extract the rom and play the game.

[SavannahLion]

Rick lives (or so he says) in Canada. So the true answer to his questions would have to take this into consideration. Discussing laws for another country is largely moot.

[lilshawn]

i think the big thing is (at least in canada) that you can't really compare game roms and CD's because canadians pay a fee; "private copying levy" on blank media. (as well as many other countries) this renders any copies you make "legal" in a sense because the levy was paid and the fee used to reimburse the artist (or whatever they REALLY do with it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy

this makes any media you make with the disks "legal" (and i say that in quotes because it sort of isn't)

[Rick]

i think the big thing is (at least in canada) that you can't really compare game roms and CD's because canadians pay a fee; "private copying levy" on blank media. (as well as many other countries) this renders any copies you make "legal" in a sense because the levy was paid and the fee used to reimburse the artist (or whatever they REALLY do with it)

I guess so? It's all a bit confusing, from that point of view. If we were restricted only by that, however, then that would mean that replacing a bad EEPROM chip could be considered illegal, as it's not the 'original' media that inhabited the board...

Damn, now I'm getting dizzy.

[lilshawn]

well...it's legal in the sense that it's had some kind of penalty for it.

it's illegal because in order to copy said disk...if you had to break any kind of encryption (like DVD) it's illegal. if you didn't have encryption, it is legal to copy.

to download them off the internet is not illegal, but sharing them on the internet IS.

to borrow an original off your friend and make a copy for yourself is legal.

to borrow your friends COPY and make a copy from that is ILLEGAL 

the law has too many holes and "what if's" and if/then's to properly protect.

[SavannahLion]

And I can think of exceptions to every single one of those examples. The *AA clowns need to work out a better business model that doesn't tie the consumers hands unnecessarily.

My advice? Stay under the radar.

[lilshawn]

My advice? Stay under the radar.

secondifed 

[Rick]

Great advice in this thread, to be sure. Thanks, guys.