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Author Topic: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help  (Read 8057 times)

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SteveFury

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Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« on: August 22, 2013, 02:09:49 pm »
Hello, this is my 1st post.

I have a 1961 Seeburg AY-160 which the selections can be made normally, the carriage scans twice and stops. It doesn't pick up the record.

I have looked through and studied the installation/service manual and I have a fairly decent grasp of how this is supposed to work. I also have the troubleshooting guide. I have followed the trouble flow within it.

I did the first test which the Tormat RCA plug is disconnected, and a jumper is connected to TP-C. I start a selection and try to trip the carriage by putting the other end of the jumper on the center lug of the RCA female plug, and the carriage does not trip. I followed the next troubleshooting step and left the Tormat RCA plug disconnected, and connected my jumper to TP-B, started a scan and connected the other end of the jumper onto TP-A and the mechanism trips, loads a record and plays.

So it seems a problem exists in my Tormat Pulse amplifier. One side of the 12AX7 tube tests weak in my Precision Mutual Conductance tester, so I got a new one out of my own stock. The new tube tests good so I put it in the Pulse Amplifier. The issue is not resolved, the mechanism still scans twice then stops.

Next step in the troubleshooting guide is to replace the 2050 tube. The issue is that I don't have one and I'd like to do some more testing before going out and ordering one.

This is how I am attempting to test the pulse amplifier. Please let me know if I am in error.

I am doing the first test in the guide and watch the output of the Pulse Amplifier. I connect my scope to gnd (Actually TP-A) and input for the scope channel to TP-B as shown. I start a selection, and while the mech is scanning I momentarily pulse TP-C onto the RCA connector center. My scope sensitivity is set to .1v/cm and I get no reaction at all from the amplifier.

Just for the sake of it, I put my scope onto the RCA male plug from the Tormat memory unit to try to see if there's an output there. I set my scope to maximum sensitivity to .05v/cm and made a selection hoping to see a jump as the mech flipped the Torid for that selection. I see no reaction at all.

I got a most wonderful deal on this beautiful machine only a few days ago. The owner before me said it worked fine but stopped picking up records years ago (but you know how that goes with people selling things).

I am asking anyone's opinion on this before I remove the Tormat controller from the juke so I can figure out how to get to the Pulse Amplifier circuits and do some tests, such as replacing C505 and C506 coupling caps.

Opinion? Does what I've described make sense or not?
The 6x4 rectifier tube in the Tormat was also very weak so I replaced it with a new one out of my stock. The tops of both regulator tubes glow purple, as I read in the troubleshooting guide that they should.
Thanks
-Steve
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:19:56 pm by SteveFury »

ed12

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 07:51:07 pm »
the pluse amp 2050 is the most common thing to fail
as with  the cap's
the is no real way to test the 2050

ed
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SteveFury

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 08:27:51 pm »
Thank you very much Ed.

I've been studying the wiring and schematics over very carefully. TP-B Is connected to the line which provides a way for the mechanism to trip at the end of a record (by way of the phono trip switch) and a couple other ways. When that line approaches gnd then the 2050 fires the mechanism's trip solenoid. So I know the 2050 is at least partially working.

There's another 2050 on the Tormat that operates the remote control stepper unit, which is not used. I'll try swapping the two 2050's tonight. I don't know if the other 2050 is any good either but I think it's worth a try.

If that fails I'll probably remove the Tormat selector unit along with its pulse amplifier from the jukebox an do some signal tracing.
I bet C505 or C506 or C507  are open.

I hate the confusing way Seeburg did the plugs in the diagrams. Instead of labeling a plug/jack combo the same, they are labeled differently.  Like plug P655 from the mechanism goes in J501 on the Tormat. Oh well.

Anyway thanks for the reply! :-D

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 08:37:24 pm by SteveFury »

ed12

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2013, 10:29:42 pm »
np
and def just replace the caps. no need to chk em as they will be way way out of toralnce,also got to >jukebox request list <
sign up and go through there very very long repair list on that unit

ed
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SteveFury

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2013, 03:38:01 am »
I discovered how to remove the Pulse Amplifier from the main Tormat unit. One screw at the top comes out and pry it off to unplug.

OMG there is no wonder this amplifier won't function. The cathode follower and 1st grid bias resistors are -way- out of specification (Highlighted green), but worse is the 1st anode load resistor and 2nd grid resistor are both completely open (Highlighted violet).

I hope to pick replacement parts up tomorrow, including the two paper capacitors. The schematic calls for 1/2w resistors but I am replacing R503-R507 with 1 watt. I am completely confident this will fix the Pulse Amp, and allow it to work the 2050 properly.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 03:42:57 am by SteveFury »

ed12

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2013, 09:28:16 am »
ya i did forget to metion them sorry my bad..
do yourself a fav and snag a few 2050's

ed
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SteveFury

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 06:22:31 pm »
Update!

I have the Pulse Amp rebuilt. The amp works perfectly and looks great too.

Unfortunately the Tormat does not trip a record. I tried the test again, where a jumper is put on the Pulse Amp RCA input and touched onto TP-C (TP-C is a small voltage respective of ground) and again the mech does not trip. I removed the Tormat controller and replaced C507, which couples the amp to the 2050 tube. It still won't trip by either the memory unit nor the TP.

But good news, I can now trip the mech using a 1.5v "AA" battery put onto the Pulse Amp input, scratched to chassis ground. I believe the 1.5v battery is much higher than the Tormat Memory unit output, so that leads me to a weak 2050 tube.

I ordered two 2050's this morning and I hope to have them by the weekend.

In the mean time I've removed the Tormat Electrical Selector (Button switch assembly) from the front panel. It is really very dirty and nasty so I'll be going through it. The service slide switch was so mechancially dirty/bad that its spring wouldn't return it back to off. I have that switch cleaned out and working perfectly, as well as the service rotary switch. Along with it's mounting bracket, they look and work as new.

Question for anyone.
What is the easiest way to clean the main selector switch assembly (The whole unit)? the dirt/grime is pretty well stuck on everything. Is there a way to clean individual selector switch contacts? They look like they were not meant to be disassembled.
I can remove/clean/service the removable devices such as total count meter, solenoid, bars etc and manually scrub the grime but am looking for a viable shortcut, if one exists. Can I scrub it with soap and water then blow it dry?

Thanks!  :cheers:
-Steve
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 06:25:33 pm by SteveFury »

Ken Layton

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 06:35:52 pm »
Ron Rich's "Seeburg Mechanism Guide" book details all the cleaning procedures and what works best.

BigBird0000

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2013, 03:45:21 pm »
I opened up the pulse amp container on my TSU3, and saw C506 had leaked.

It seems pretty tight in by the 12AX7, so I think I need to remove the pulse amp. Any suggestions on an easy way to do it?

I was thinking remove the red and black wires from the terminal strip, and then unsolder the other wires from underneath the TSU.

Does anyone have an easier way

ed12

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2013, 04:35:51 pm »
not soap and water
try tkx and any good contact cleanr..it must cay will not damage plastic
also the 2050s i truly hope u got them from a english supiller ? as the ussr 1's will fail in no time flat..

ed
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kb50

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2015, 12:35:42 am »
I am working on a Q160 (Happy Days) jukebox. After discovering a cut wire in the selector, which turns out I soldered to the wrong place. Well it caused the credit wheel unit to smoke a few wires. Ok that will be easily fixed, and planning to jumper the credit wheel and move the spring on the subtract arm. Also discovered the scan relay ADD contact which are 2 wiper contacts, were bent and dirty. So I am cleaning all the points, and burnishing all the contacts to get that working right.

I am experiencing problems with the pulse amp. On mine the 27k to ground resistor opened. After replacing it however now it wants to trip the 2050 tube all of the time resulting in the trip coil to energize all the time. This is with the 12AX7 removed from the pulse amplifier. So the result appears that the Capacitor from pin 4 the 27k that was open, now feeding the -150 to the end of C7 .15uf must be getting false noise. If I remove the pulse amp unit and the 27k is not there, it does not trip. However the Pin 4 when just touching it with a meter probe causes the 2050 to easily trip. Thus I also feel that the R8 resistor must be open as well, causing false ac stray pulses to form. It trips fine at end of record or when cancel it pushed, and so concluded that the trip tube is running fine.

Also plan to replace filter caps coming off the 6AX4 and 0A2 tubes to ground.

Interesting that Seeburg uses 150 negative voltages instead of positive voltages on all these systems. Must be a reason but defies the normal positive plate of which you see most tube systems incoorporating.

I suspect the main culprit to be the C8 .15uf cap and will replace it with a higher voltage rated modern one. That value of cap I have seen fail due to leakage many times in other similar items. It obviously is sending the voltage of the grid on the 2050 tube much too high causing the false trip conditions. Too high in a negative voltage of course.



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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2016, 08:12:39 pm »
Hello, I'm new to this forum but I am so glad I have found it - and you.

I am also working on a Seeburg 160, I thought I was the only one!  I am having the same issue with the records not selecting.  I've done lots of general cleaning of contacts on the Tormat unit, replaced all of the tubes on the control module and have followed the steps in the troubleshooting manual.  I can manually select a record by jumping the terminals, and the troubleshooting guide points to "REPLACE TORMAT UNIT" which I don't believe.  There's nothing much that can wrong with that other than dirty contacts (I looked inside at the toroids, pretty cool).

Anyway, I've proceeded to remove and will rebuild the pulse amplifier.  Looks pretty messy in there, all of the heat from the tubes have cooked the old capacitors I think.

Any luck so far for you guys?

Thanks in advance, and so glad that I've found you.

Rubin from Sydney NS, Canada

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Re: Seeburg AY-160 Tormat help
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 07:21:37 pm »
Thank you very much Ed.

I've been studying the wiring and schematics over very carefully. TP-B Is connected to the line which provides a way for the mechanism to trip at the end of a record (by way of the phono trip switch) and a couple other ways. When that line approaches gnd then the 2050 fires the mechanism's trip solenoid. So I know the 2050 is at least partially working.

There's another 2050 on the Tormat that operates the remote control stepper unit, which is not used. I'll try swapping the two 2050's tonight. I don't know if the other 2050 is any good either but I think it's worth a try.

If that fails I'll probably remove the Tormat selector unit along with its pulse amplifier from the jukebox an do some signal tracing.
I bet C505 or C506 or C507  are open.

I hate the confusing way Seeburg did the plugs in the diagrams. Instead of labeling a plug/jack combo the same, they are labeled differently.  Like plug P655 from the mechanism goes in J501 on the Tormat. Oh well.

Anyway thanks for the reply! :-D

Thanks again!
Hey Steve have you figured it out?  I have the same problem

  
 

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