Buying LEGAL retro games on CD

[Nitro0602]

Anyone know where I can buy a CD collection of retro games for the PC (A legal version)
Built my cabinet and want to do everything legally, I heard there's a way to buy unprotected games.. anyone know about this? (Sorry if it is illegal)
I was talking to guys at Namco America, and they said the only Cd's they have are for the consoles not pc.
Very frustrating wanting to play all the retro games, but can't.. legally that is.  I have people asking to buy my cabinet, but of course they want games.. so I want to offer a legit versions of games, somehow...

Any help would be great!!!!


 
 

[darkSSide]

Googled and this came up on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Retro-Arcade-Games-PC/lm/R19OJLKD9J17SU
Pretty much all you need. Pretty good selection for the basics

[ark_ader]

Buy some arcade game boards.   

[Dcpmark]

My HotRod SE contol panel came with a CD of 14 Capcom games. If I still have it you are welcome to it.

http://retroblast.arcadecontrols.com/reviews/controller2.html

[chopperthedog]

Who is gonna catch you if you did sell that cab with games loaded in it? No one.....  ALL XXXXXXXin1 boards are illegal, but you don't see any vendors locked up in jail. There are even threads here with builds done with the intention of selling. Lets not forget craigslist garage guys that have made healthy livings for years selling illegal games. Sell it with the games, take a trip Europe and create a thread with your pics living the good life and build another cab.


good day.

[epetti]

I found this to be a very frustrating experience.  I am 100% willing and wanting to buy all games legally and have an arcade cabinet that plays them all.  But the wonderful thing about MAME is that all games use the same keyboard controls, a front end you can set up for them, save states and high score saves, etc.  Namco actually sells a PC compilation -- I have it.  The Namco 50th Anniversary Museum.  You can find it used on Amazon and elsewhere.  But many of the old compilations including that one have stupid copy protection that require the disc to be in, some of them don't let you customize controls.  Often they have their own front end that you have to use to launch the games and it's very difficult or impossible to run the games standalone so you can pipe them through a front end.

Basically, the target audience for most of these classics are people who would want to build their own arcade, but the games seem to be sold in a way that makes them as difficult as possible to use in an arcade cabinet.

[darkSSide]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you own a pc version like those compilations can't you say you legally own that game? So if you have that rom in MAME its ok?

Sent from my Atari 2600

[epetti]

From an ethical point of view I completely agree.  From a legal point of view, I'm no lawyer, but I believe it's an undefined gray area.  I believe companies fall on the side of saying that should be illegal, but no case has actually been heard on the subject.  I know Nintendo's point of view is that emulators in general should be illegal, even with no roms, or with roms that you directly created from a cartridge or disc.

[JDFan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you own a pc version like those compilations can't you say you legally own that game? So if you have that rom in MAME its ok?

Sent from my Atari 2600

Think it depends on where you live and the laws in your country -- Here in the US. nope even if you have the PC version of those games you can not "legally" obtain and use the ROM for MAME - just like if you buy a console version of a game you still have to buy the PC version in order to play it on your PC.

[Generic Eric]

I remember thinking when that hotrod came out that those discs would be handy later on.  Should have bought a stack of those and sold them years later.

[darkSSide]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you own a pc version like those compilations can't you say you legally own that game? So if you have that rom in MAME its ok?

Sent from my Atari 2600

Think it depends on where you live and the laws in your country -- Here in the US. nope even if you have the PC version of those games you can not "legally" obtain and use the ROM for MAME - just like if you buy a console version of a game you still have to buy the PC version in order to play it on your PC.

You kind of proved me right. If you have a PC version,well MAME is played on the PC. So it should be ok. Just like music. I buy the CD it's my music to play on anything.

Sent from my Atari 2600

[Generic Eric]

This comes up periodically.  I get that.  There are always new folks.  Bottom line, this is like rule one of fight club.

The rest is just everyone trying to rationalize their decisions.  No compilation, pc, console or otherwise legitimizes the guilt you are feeling.

[Nitro0602]

Funny thing happened... I posted my ad on kijiji saying it can play retro roms... Then Namco America emailed me saying to take it off cause I do not have licenses to sell their games... I was like holly crap.. How did they find my ad. I called them after and sorted everything out.. Lol
In short, it is illegal to advertise roms/emulators.. Even if I said it comes with my cabinet free!!!
But yet, there's websites that sell the complete rom set!!!
I just don't get it!! I'm trying to sell cabinets with retro games, but how can I a hold of all the originals?
Just freakin impossible...

Very frustrating... Cause I do want to do this legit, but looks to be I'm S#%T out of luck!!!

[chopperthedog]

I call BS. You're telling me that namco just happen to "find" your ad and email you? I can think of 10+ sites where I can get a 60in1 board that includes every variation of namco's cash cow, and these sites have been selling them for years. I'd like to see the verbiage that you used in your ad if in fact they did happen to single you out on your very first ad. Not buying what you're trying to sell.. (see what I did thar? )


good day.

[Nitro0602]

Huh? Why the heck would I lie??? I tried selling a cabinet and stated it came with free roms/emulators thinking if I don't price on that portion it would fine... Which I found out it wasn't!!
Here's the email below...

You do not have a license to sell or reproduce these games or distribute ROMs. They are copyright protected by the original manufacturers and it is a crime to sell illegal or bootleg copies punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Additionally Namco America will take whatever civil actions necessary to protect our intellectual property.
You will be hearing from our legal team in the near future if you continue to sell any games for which Namco is the legal rights holder

Tom Siemieniec
Namco America
tsiemieniec@namcoamerica.com
phone: 847-264-5622
fax: 847-439-0646

[Nitro0602]

As I said... I already called them and sorted things out.. That's why I made this post... To go 100% legit (if possible)

[SavannahLion]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you own a pc version like those compilations can't you say you legally own that game? So if you have that rom in MAME its ok?

Sent from my Atari 2600

Think it depends on where you live and the laws in your country -- Here in the US. nope even if you have the PC version of those games you can not "legally" obtain and use the ROM for MAME - just like if you buy a console version of a game you still have to buy the PC version in order to play it on your PC.

You kind of proved me right. If you have a PC version,well MAME is played on the PC. So it should be ok. Just like music. I buy the CD it's my music to play on anything.

Sent from my Atari 2600

He has done nothing to prove you right. All you're doing is arguing semantics. A circular argument that has no basis in fact.

Look it's simple. Half the group is going to be wrong, the other half might be right but they'll never get any argument right. No one ever sits down and actually disseminate the copyright laws of their respective countries. Right now, all anyone does is to try and justify their actions and find excuses. To that end, it's a worthless argument.

[CoryBee]

Who is gonna catch you if you did sell that cab with games loaded in it? No one.....  ALL XXXXXXXin1 boards are illegal, but you don't see any vendors locked up in jail. There are even threads here with builds done with the intention of selling. Lets not forget craigslist garage guys that have made healthy livings for years selling illegal games. Sell it with the games, take a trip Europe and create a thread with your pics living the good life and build another cab.
good day.

[darkSSide]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you own a pc version like those compilations can't you say you legally own that game? So if you have that rom in MAME its ok?

Sent from my Atari 2600

Think it depends on where you live and the laws in your country -- Here in the US. nope even if you have the PC version of those games you can not "legally" obtain and use the ROM for MAME - just like if you buy a console version of a game you still have to buy the PC version in order to play it on your PC.

You kind of proved me right. If you have a PC version,well MAME is played on the PC. So it should be ok. Just like music. I buy the CD it's my music to play on anything.

Sent from my Atari 2600

He has done nothing to prove you right. All you're doing is arguing semantics. A circular argument that has no basis in fact.

Look it's simple. Half the group is going to be wrong, the other half might be right but they'll never get any argument right. No one ever sits down and actually disseminate the copyright laws of their respective countries. Right now, all anyone does is to try and justify their actions and find excuses. To that end, it's a worthless argument.

Wasn't trying to argue but...ok

Sent from my Atari 2600

[Lilwolf]

I do miss StarRoms.  Legal roms, cheap price, home use only... But as emulation grew, the companies selling the rom rights to starroms realized there was a market and stopped selling them.  StarRoms list of legally purchasable roms dropped every 6 months.  Sigh.

I wonder if I could find my auth email somewhere.

[ark_ader]

Let's hope that the Wii U gets some revenue.  I don't like the boys at Namco dreaming up new ways to get revenue, like chasing IP rights infringers.

Well there again if patent trolls can do it, why not IP Trolls? 

Back on topic:

What you do in your own home is your business.  As long as you are not committing any capital offence you are free to use your best judgement.

You want legal roms, then go to Mame.Net and they will have some like robby roto.  Want something more exotic, and you are not selling your cab or making you tube videos of the experience, then I do not see any reason to have such material for your own personal consumption.

It is just common sense.  And the gag about Namco?, I can believe you got a C&D. Anyone stupid enough to brag always deserves some unwanted attention. 

[Dawgz Rule]

 
What he said.  When people come over I invariably get asked if I would consider building a cabinet for them.  The amount people are willing to pay for one makes it a pretty tempting proposition but it just isn't worth it......Not to mention that you somehow become the person that has to support them when issues come up.

[BadMouth]

So the people don't want your cab without the games, but somehow they are "free" and don't represent any part of the purchase price? 

The games in the midway arcade treasures series can be launched individually and therefore can be added to a front-end.
Add -f to the command line for fullscreen.

There are lots of collections out there.  You could get up to 100 games without too much trouble.

Was browsing games yesterday and saw that you can get 18 Irem classics for $2.49
http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/us/en/pc/games/action/irem-arcade-hits/
(not sure if the 20% off coupon on the front page works)

"poor xbox 360 controller support" kinda makes me WANT to buy it. 

[Nitro0602]

lol, I know what your thinking... but I actually purchased the complete rom set for $60 off a website.. stupid me though it was legit... then I realized soon after it was illegal.. have no idea why these sites are still up selling these roms.  This is what I include with the my cabinet... 32" LCD/LED Tv, X-arcade tankstick with trackball, 2.93ghz core2du computer with HDMI and 500GB (From Dell), usb rubber keyboard (Waterproof and of course the cabinet... maybe its best if I sell through friends/family... to many problems otherwise.

[epetti]

I've been wondering, though.  How do the legit companies do it?  Dream Authentics, North Coast Custom Arcades, Chicago Gaming Company, X-Arcade, etc..  They all sell systems with hundreds of  games on them, and they're big enough that if they were doing something illegal they would be shut down faster than any individual would.  It seems from their web sites that they are basically just selling the CD compilations, but they claim to have a frontend (North Coast Custom Arcades uses Hyperspin) that runs them all.  Having bought most of the compilations I don't see how that's possible unless they've figured out how to decrypt all the copy protection schemes and lose the CD inserted requirements.  And if they did that, I'm pretty sure that would not be entirely legal either.

[Dawgz Rule]

They enter into a license agreement with the manufacturer.  For the average home user this isn't a cost effective option.

[nitz]

In short, it is illegal to advertise roms/emulators.. Even if I said it comes with my cabinet free!!!

Heh, the whole "I'm just selling the cabinet, the roms are free so I'm in the clear!" argument always makes me chuckle. It's like saying, "Hey, I just sold someone a plastic baggie, the marijuana was free, so you can't charge me with selling drugs!"

The problem with selling an emulation cabinet is that the people who would be ok with it not including any games are the same people who would rather just build their own.

If you really want to make and sell these for fun/money, I say just make some really nice cabinet shells and leave it up to the purchaser to finish. Even some people who can build their own might be interested, since a lot of people have more money than free time - I'm in that situation myself right now and wish there were someone local to me who sold cab shells.

You're probably not gonna sell a lot or make a lot of money, but such is this hobby. Most of us bleed money like crazy to support our habit (er, hobby) so if you could make any money, that would be pretty good.

[Dawgz Rule]

"Hey, I just sold someone a plastic baggie, the marijuana was free, so you can't charge me with selling drugs!"

 

"The sex was free, the escort service is what I paid for..."

[Crazy Cooter]

Here are the facts for USA:
1) you can't include MAME with anything you sell.
2) there are about 3 public domain ROM's that you can include with a sale... but see fact #1.
3) adding them for "free" is the same as charging for them.
4) pointing a customer to where they can "obtain" ROM's is the same as including/charging for them.
5) there is no "gray area".
6) the chances of being sued/arrested for a cabinet with 99,999 games that you made and keep in your house are virtually zero.
7) sale and/or display of the above cabinet increases your risk.
8 ) people have been prosecuted.
9) people have avoided prosecution.
10) some PC collections forbid resale, which is what you would be doing by including them.
11) multi-game boards are generally illegal.
12) artwork/characters are not public domain.
13) opinion, ethics and/or past experiences do not change the above facts.

[paigeoliver]

1. Violating the Mame license is really your last worry in the world when it comes to selling game cabinets. The Mame license isn't a law, didn't exist at all for about the first 25 releases and would neither stand up in court, nor be defended in court. Mame itself couldn't be developed in a 100 percent legal manner, since it has specific support for bootleg romsets and variants, something that is impossible to develop legally because technically there is no legal way to do so.

2. The mamedev website seems to have added a bit to the wording on the release of some roms. Jamie Fenton straight up posted on her website that "As the rights to this game have reverted to me, I have chosen to permit MAME users to duplicate and play the ROM images for Robby Roto free of charge." She didn't say non-commercial use, or set any restrictions whatsoever, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the other releases were more open as well.

3-6. Yep.

7. Which still seems to be almost nothing these days. Amazon.com sells multiboards. You can buy 60 in 1 machines from basically every pinball, jukebox, arcade and pool table vendor in the country.

8-10 Yep, although the licenses of PC software rarely stand up in court when challenged.

11. See #7. Might also add the issue of, how do we actually know the multiboards are illegal. Of course we all know they are. But they aren't presented as an illegal product. I can buy them on Amazon.com and from 100 other legitimate vendors. I can walk into Amini's huge showroom in St. Louis right now and buy a brand new 60 in 1 right off the showroom floor, pay sales tax on it and they will pay taxes on their profit. The 60 in 1 is probably the world's most common arcade game at this point, and it is powered by mame and it seems no one involved is bothering to defend their copyrights at all.

12. Yep.

Here are the facts for USA:
1) you can't include MAME with anything you sell.
2) there are about 3 public domain ROM's that you can include with a sale... but see fact #1.
3) adding them for "free" is the same as charging for them.
4) pointing a customer to where they can "obtain" ROM's is the same as including/charging for them.
5) there is no "gray area".
6) the chances of being sued/arrested for a cabinet with 99,999 games that you made and keep in your house are virtually zero.
7) sale and/or display of the above cabinet increases your risk.
8 ) people have been prosecuted.
9) people have avoided prosecution.
10) some PC collections forbid resale, which is what you would be doing by including them.
11) multi-game boards are generally illegal.
12) artwork/characters are not public domain.
13) opinion, ethics and/or past experiences do not change the above facts.

[Nightbring3r]

Everything Crazy Cooter is dead on.

[mgb]

Here are the facts for USA:
1) you can't include MAME with anything you sell.
2) there are about 3 public domain ROM's that you can include with a sale... but see fact #1.
3) adding them for "free" is the same as charging for them.
4) pointing a customer to where they can "obtain" ROM's is the same as including/charging for them.
5) there is no "gray area".
6) the chances of being sued/arrested for a cabinet with 99,999 games that you made and keep in your house are virtually zero.
7) sale and/or display of the above cabinet increases your risk.
8 ) people have been prosecuted.
9) people have avoided prosecution.
10) some PC collections forbid resale, which is what you would be doing by including them.
11) multi-game boards are generally illegal.
12) artwork/characters are not public domain.
13) opinion, ethics and/or past experiences do not change the above facts.

This really sums it up perfectly. There really is no argument that can be made against it.
building and selling mame cabs, unless they are just cabs and controls and no software, just isn't a great business model.

[SavannahLion]

1. .....
Mame itself couldn't be developed in a 100 percent legal manner, since it has
specific support for bootleg romsets and variants, something that is impossible to develop legally because technically there is no legal way to do so.

I would question that. IIRC Sony vs. Bleem! found emulation has a legal standing (ROMs are different and do not enjoy the same legal status). Since the case occurred after the introduction of the DMCA, it shows the contradictory nature of the DMCA and the rest of U.S. law. Namely the well established (e.g. protected) act of reverse engineering existing hardware and software. The parameters of reverse engineering were already well established by cases like Nintendo vs. Atari. Finally, I know of no case where the act of reverse engineering a bootleg or such has been determined as illegal on any grounds. I also know of no law that cites the same.

In short, as long as MAMEDev follows the specific reverse engineering methods already tested in court, MAME is 100% legal in the U.S. This addreses nothing about ROMs however.

Please note: I am drawing this conclusion from the U.S. If you're not in the U.S. do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

[paigeoliver]

I wasn't speaking of reverse engineering the hardware, but of specific support for bootleg romsets, which are different than standard ones. How does one develop support for bootleg romsets without possessing those romsets, which are themselves not legal to possess.

1. .....
Mame itself couldn't be developed in a 100 percent legal manner, since it has
specific support for bootleg romsets and variants, something that is impossible to develop legally because technically there is no legal way to do so.

I would question that. IIRC Sony vs. Bleem! found emulation has a legal standing (ROMs are different and do not enjoy the same legal status). Since the case occurred after the introduction of the DMCA, it shows the contradictory nature of the DMCA and the rest of U.S. law. Namely the well established (e.g. protected) act of reverse engineering existing hardware and software. The parameters of reverse engineering were already well established by cases like Nintendo vs. Atari. Finally, I know of no case where the act of reverse engineering a bootleg or such has been determined as illegal on any grounds. I also know of no law that cites the same.

In short, as long as MAMEDev follows the specific reverse engineering methods already tested in court, MAME is 100% legal in the U.S. This addreses nothing about ROMs however.

Please note: I am drawing this conclusion from the U.S. If you're not in the U.S. do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

[ark_ader]

While we are on the subject of selling pirated games, from the biggest hypocrite of them all.

I wonder how our dear old friend Dave Foley is doing (hoping that comment will bring the genie out the bottle  )? 

[BobA]

I gave you some advice in another thread but you seem to keep wanting to attract attention to yourself.

We go around this circle at least once a year.  It never will be legal to sell mame with a bunch of games and there are things you can buy but they do not interface as easily.  One of the best is the Capcom collection that used to come free with a HotRod control panel.  At least they provided it free even thou they do not seem to be in business any more. There are other collections of games that can be purchased and sold with a cab if you give them the original collection.

As mgb said:
This really sums it up perfectly. There really is no argument that can be made against it.
building and selling mame cabs, unless they are just cabs and controls and no software, just isn't a great business model.

If you want to sell your cab on Kijiji or Craigs list I cannot see why it would attract alot of attention from Namco as there are commercial companies who have been selling a whole bunch with their cabs and do not seem to have a problem.

Another thing that I would like to say is I have built 8 to 10 bartops and I may give them away, wear them out, or do other things to them but I have never said I had one for sale on this forum.

Lets not continue to attract attention to what you think is a problem. There is no real solution except bare (no software) cabs or cabs where the seller does not keep saying look at me look at me I have a problem.  Maybe you are the problem.

[danny_galaga]

AS you've found out, don;t use the word ROM in an ad on any of the online auction sites ;-)