Yes you can double-up inputs using shift on an I-PAC

[AndyWarne]

Hi,

I never really thought anyone would want to do this, but I was evidently completely wrong, as someone mentioned doing just this on another thread.
Yes this will work on an I-PAC. I will try to get a web page done about it this week.
Just to re-cap, it is the idea of having multiple specialized buttons on the panel for functions such as escape, coin etc rather than using shift functions, and without using up any more inputs to the encoder, so it effectively doubles the number of inputs.
Andy

[jcoleman]

How about a quick how-to?  I am assuming all one needs to do is connect the player 1 start to, say, the player 1 down, and you have the pause function on one button?

Thanks

John

[AndyWarne]

It's not quite that simple, because if you think about it, if you connect those inputs as you mention, both switches will always perform the same function. But if you use diodes you can avoid this. I will get a write-up done.

[shmokes]

This is a total hijack, but since I've got you here....how did your project of hacking an x-box controller (and hopefully if successful a GC and PS2 controller) for an encoder go?  I'm going to be buying some products from you in the near future and I don't want to get a regular iPac if you've got one that will interface with concoles too around the corner.

Was that endeaver at all fruitful or has it been abandoned?

[AndyWarne]

I am not hacking an X-Box controler, what I am doing is designing an interface for the X-Box which the I-PAC will plug into.  There will be limitations of course because the X-Box uses analog joysticks but some games (so I'm told!), mainly arcade-type games, will be fine.

Andy

[eightbit]

Wow that would be incredible. I just bought an x-arcade for usb and xbox compatability.

[shmokes]

Oh...yeah, I just meant that you seamed to be hacking an X-box controller to figure out how it worked so you could design a sleek interface.  

If it's going to be a separate attachment that will plug into existing I-Pac's it probably doesn't matter; I just wanted an approximation of when this product might be available in case I should wait a month or two before buying my I-Pac to make sure I got one with X-box connectivity.

Thanks for the update.

[Tiger-Heli]

I never really thought anyone would want to do this, but I was evidently completely wrong, as someone mentioned doing just this on another thread.

Hmmmm, I thought _Iz- asked about this on the Ultimarc forum back in February or so and you replied that it couldn't be done because of the way the I-PAC shift function operates on key release.  Are you changing the way the shift function operates or designing some sort of delay circuit so the shift key registers first when both inputs are pressed?

Just to re-cap, it is the idea of having multiple specialized buttons on the panel for functions such as escape, coin etc rather than using shift functions, and without using up any more inputs to the encoder, so it effectively doubles the number of inputs.

Just to clarify, based on my understanding - this is already possible with the KeyWiz, see http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/arcadepanels/encoder/shiftkeys.htm, although the I-PAC may well require a slightly different circuit.

Also, unless I'm wrong, it does not "double" the number of inputs, b/c the shift key has no way to send an input when shifted, so you get 27 additional inputs instead of 28 additional.

In addition, using the shifted inputs shifts all the regular inputs, so they're not just free inputs.  You would end up with 27 additional non-gaming inputs for coins, Admin Functions, etc.

Finally, if you used this, you would probably want to program the Shift Key regular input to "NONE" to avoid conflicts, so what you end up with is a 27-input controller with 27 additional admin key functions.

The KeyWiz avoids this b/c the shift key is in addition to the 32 input keys - i.e. KeyWiz=32 inputs plus shift, I-PAC=28 inputs, one of which functions as shift.

Not trying to start a flame war, just re-iterating this b/c it caused a lot of confusion when the KeyWiz was first released.

[tmasman]

...if you use diodes you can avoid this...

From the sounds of it he's probably wiring the shift function along with another wire to 1 button... Like he said though... There would need to at least be a diod or 2 to make this work right...

So you would be (almost) doubling your inputs. from 28 to 55.

As far as a signal being sent on key-release I'm assuming it's only the shift key that works that way... If you use the default (P1 start) there still shouldn't be any reason to lose the use of it alone as well as the combined "shift+another signal in 1" (& without some odd delay circuit)

I can see the usefullness of this. But with an easy how-to, it might mean a decrease in sales of the 4-player unit...

eh...

I always did wonder if this was possible, & now we know.

[Tiger-Heli]

From the sounds of it he's probably wiring the shift function along with another wire to 1 button... Like he said though... There would need to at least be a diod or 2 to make this work right...

That would be how I take it.

So you would be (almost) doubling your inputs. from 28 to 55.

With many limitations.  Agreed 55 or 54 total inputs, but it's not that simple.  See the KeyWiz Stealth inputs discussion in the Shiftkeys page above and remember that one shifted key shifts all other keys.  So let's say I have Coin 1 mapped to shifted P1B1 and Coin 2 mapped to Shifted P2B2.  I am playing a game and Player 2 presses the Coin Input the same time Player 1 presses Fire.  Player 1 will get a Coin1 input instead of the intended Fire key.  The problem would be MUCH worse if the shifted inputs were used for P4B2 or some action button, so it's not like you get a I-PAC/4 or MK64 for half-price.

As far as a signal being sent on key-release I'm assuming it's only the shift key that works that way... If you use the default (P1 start) there still shouldn't be any reason to lose the use of it alone as well as the combined "shift+another signal in 1" (& without some odd delay circuit)

There are three cases here.  Let me cover each of them, as I'm not sure what you mean.

Option 1 - This doesn't really use a "Shift" function.  I leave P1Start as the Shift key, then use diodes to wire P1B2 and P2B1 to a single button and re-program MAME to recognize these combined inputs as Pause, Esc, Coin1, etc.  The problems with this is that if I activate the two inputs separately, I will still have MAME do what the shifted button is supposed to do.

Option 2 - The I-PAC is reprogrammed so that the shifted input is sent on key-down.  This is the way the KeyWiz is set-up, except that the KeyWiz shift key is a separate input.  Otherwise, I will generate both inputs - I.E. let's say P1Start remains as Shift, and I wire a button to both P1B1 and P1Start, and assign this Shifted input as Coin 1.  Now when I press the Coin 1 button, I will get the P1Start input, and the shift (Coin1) input.  So I would think you would want to avoid having the P1Start input send a code to avoid this.

Option 3 - There is a way to wire the button so some kind of delay is activated between the button press and the shift input.  This is difficult to follow (like the above wasn't ;-((( ), but with this, I could use the Shift key as a regular input, but not a game input.  Consider the following:  With the KeyWiz, I can assign all coin and start buttons to Stealth-Shifted inputs, but the 32 other inputs remain available for gameplay.  With the I-PAC, if I use all 28 inputs for gameplay, one of them activates the shift function.  So say I have P1B8 assigned as the Shift Button.  Now whenever I press P1B8 (in a four-player game, for example), all the other keys will send their shifted rather than normal inputs.  So I really can only use 27 of the inputs.

I can see the usefullness of this. But with an easy how-to, it might mean a decrease in sales of the 4-player unit...

No it won't, see above.

[_Iz-]

any progress on this write-up andy?

[lokki]

What about the J-Pac will something like this also be possible?

Thanks

[_Iz-]

Yes, the I-Pac and the J-Pac are the same thing (as far as the keyboard encoder part goes) so what works on the I-Pac should also work on the J-Pac.

[fogman]

Andy,
  Have you considered making a kind of daughter board, that takes care of the housekeeping buttons?  It could attach to the keyboard connection of the I-Pac...

Just an idea, but if it could be made more cheaply than the I-Pac, it would sell as an add on, I would think.

[AndyWarne]

The main intention of having the shift function in the first place was to avoid needing any extra buttons for housekeeping functions. I am sure this is OK for most people but there are a few who would rather have dedicated buttons and then even fewer who want these buttons not to take up any dedicated inputs. So I'm not sure there there would be a great demand for this as a special add-on board.
I have done a schematic, need to get some words around it:
http://www.ultimarc.com/extra_shift.html

Andy

[WiZeR]

I have done a schematic, need to get some words around it:
http://www.ultimarc.com/extra_shift.html

Andy

That would be great, also a photo of how it actually looks for the less able among us (me).

[JustMichael]

I was wondering why the oscillator in the circuit?  Wouldn't just the diodes be enough?

[_Iz-]

The I-Pac requires the shift key to be activated a few milliseconds before any other key for it to work. The resistor and capacitor create a delay on the function button so the shift key activates first.

Andy - do you have any idea how quickly you can do repeated keypresses on this new "button"? Is the wait time neligible or significant? (I assume it takes a bit of time for the capacitor to bleed down, and you wouldn't get the delay required to properly activate the circuit again until the cap was bled down enough)

[tmasman]

I stand corrected...  

It's not as easy as I was thinking it would be...
Hm...
I'll just wait for Andy's write up before I make a bigger fool of myself...

[_Iz-]

One other thing to be aware of with the i-pac shift function. The shift *never* activates if any other function is being activated when it (shift) is activated. When you hit the shift key, it checks first to see if any other terminals are activated, if they are it ignores the shift press (I assume this is so it doesn't disturb other players by shifting their actions). I believe this is also opposite how the keywiz works. Pressing the "shazzam" (shift) key on the keywiz immediately puts the entire panel in shifted mode until it is released regardless of what is happening on it.

[_Iz-]

Andy,
  Have you considered making a kind of daughter board, that takes care of the housekeeping buttons?  It could attach to the keyboard connection of the I-Pac...

Just an idea, but if it could be made more cheaply than the I-Pac, it would sell as an add on, I would think.

You can chain another i-pac to an i-pac, hack a keyboard and connect that to the passthrough or even chain a keywiz to the i-pac to get this functionality.  Or, you could just buy an i-pac4 right off the bat and use the extra buttons for housekeeping instead of players 3 & 4.

[RandyT]

Pressing the "shazzam" (shift) key on the keywiz immediately puts the entire panel in shifted mode until it is released regardless of what is happening on it.

This is *almost* true.  It depends on how the panel is wired.

If the panel is wired properly, you can very effectively control which inputs are allowed to shift.

RandyT

[_Iz-]

Pressing the "shazzam" (shift) key on the keywiz immediately puts the entire panel in shifted mode until it is released regardless of what is happening on it.

This is *almost* true.  It depends on how the panel is wired.

If the panel is wired properly, you can very effectively control which inputs are allowed to shift.

RandyT

Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with the wiring, the panel is totally and completely shifted when the shift key is pressed exactly like I stated. The solution is in the programming. You can control this problem by programming the non-shifted and shifted function of action buttons to be the same keystroke. However, this also limits the number of "useful" shifted functions you can have.

Edit: on second thought, wiring does play a small part, you have to choose appropriate functions to wire the "housekeeping" buttons to...

[RandyT]

Pressing the "shazzam" (shift) key on the keywiz immediately puts the entire panel in shifted mode until it is released regardless of what is happening on it.

This is *almost* true.  It depends on how the panel is wired.

If the panel is wired properly, you can very effectively control which inputs are allowed to shift.

RandyT

Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with the wiring, the panel is totally and completely shifted when the shift key is pressed exactly like I stated. The solution is in the programming. You can control this problem by programming the non-shifted and shifted function of action buttons to be the same keystroke. However, this also limits the number of "useful" shifted functions you can have.

Edit: on second thought, wiring does play a small part, you have to choose appropriate functions to wire the "housekeeping" buttons to...

Ok, getting over the fact that you are telling me how my product works without even owning one......

There is a wiring method that prioritizes each of the Shazaaam! "single click" buttons, of which you can have many of.  Upon pressing any of those buttons, it will effectively shut out, not shift, as many
of your controls as you wish....even all of them if you'd like, depending upon their place or their presence in the chain.

RandyT

[_Iz-]

Is that feature new? I don't recall that being there previously...

I stand corrected, thanks for the update!  

And what makes you so sure I don't own one?    

[_Iz-]

Just looked at the wiring diagram (I think) you refer to. Unless I'm mistaken it appears to not only lock out the shift feature for buttons wired this way but also completely disable them while the shift button is pressed...  Am I wrong?  This would be a bad thing IMHO...

[RandyT]

Just looked at the wiring diagram (I think) you refer to. Unless I'm mistaken it appears to not only lock out the shift feature for buttons wired this way but also completely disable them while the shift button is pressed...  Am I wrong?  This would be a bad thing IMHO...

Heh.  I swear we did this dance a while back.  

Yes, it would block out the other controls down the line, only affecting those that were pressed during the 1/4 second the button was actually down for, and this is better than shifting everything indiscriminately.  But you can combine any number of these methods to come up with a solution that suits you.

But as we hashed out in the past, nothing is "free".  If you tweak your car to go faster, you lose gas mileage, stability, and usable life.  It's all about what you want your setup to do.

We seem to be back at this "which is better, blocking or not blocking".  One scenario you can get around some things with certain limitations, and in the other scenario, the hardware makes all the decisions.  Since this has been done already, I'll refrain, other than to say that I don't agree with your opinion.  

And what makes you so sure I don't own one?    

Other than my customer list (which I'll grant doesn't always reflect all owners, because there are a lot of them out there now), most of my customers will actually ask me about these types of things personally before making these types of statements in public forums.  But it was just a guess  

RandyT

*edit*
More butchered words  

[fogman]

Randy,
  Can you produce a house keeping only card?  Would it be hard/expensive to produce an emulator that took care of the housekeeping only, but have PS-2's in and out so that it could be used with any other emulator  (I have an I-Pac now, but don't like to shift).

   This way, you could have one emulator on the front of a cab taking care of coin in, reset, pause, etc. and the CP could have the in-game controls.  This would facillitate rotating and removable cps.

It just a thought, but I do think that if it could be made cheap enough, people would buy it.

[RandyT]

Randy,
  Can you produce a house keeping only card?  Would it be hard/expensive to produce an emulator that took care of the housekeeping only, but have PS-2's in and out so that it could be used with any other emulator  (I have an I-Pac now, but don't like to shift).

   This way, you could have one emulator on the front of a cab taking care of coin in, reset, pause, etc. and the CP could have the in-game controls.  This would facillitate rotating and removable cps.

It just a thought, but I do think that if it could be made cheap enough, people would buy it.

I've been tinkering with something that would probably do exactly what you want plus have a couple of other features.  But I don't think it will be extremely cheap. I'll have think about that one.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Randy,
  Can you produce a house keeping only card?  Would it be hard/expensive to produce an emulator that took care of the housekeeping only, but have PS-2's in and out so that it could be used with any other emulator  (I have an I-Pac now, but don't like to shift).

   This way, you could have one emulator on the front of a cab taking care of coin in, reset, pause, etc. and the CP could have the in-game controls.  This would facillitate rotating and removable cps.

It just a thought, but I do think that if it could be made cheap enough, people would buy it.

This could also be done cheaply with a keyboard hack, USB keyboard hack, or USB gamepad hack.

The usual limitations of not hacking a USB keyboard would not apply as you would not be worried about simultaneous keypresses for admin functions.

So I'm not sure how big the market would be for your suggestion.

[_Iz-]

for that matter, you could get one of these and hack it...

http://vfxweb.com/index.asp?action=itemv&ba=&cr=us&itemid=4252&ia=details&id=

[RandyT]

for that matter, you could get one of these and hack it...

http://vfxweb.com/index.asp?action=itemv&ba=&cr=us&itemid=4252&ia=details&id=

There's the best bet  

Those things are all over lately.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

One other thing to be aware of with the i-pac shift function. The shift *never* activates if any other function is being activated when it (shift) is activated. When you hit the shift key, it checks first to see if any other terminals are activated, if they are it ignores the shift press (I assume this is so it doesn't disturb other players by shifting their actions). I believe this is also opposite how the keywiz works. Pressing the "shazzam" (shift) key on the keywiz immediately puts the entire panel in shifted mode until it is released regardless of what is happening on it.

Let me point something out here.  What _Iz- is saying is that on the I-PAC, if I am holding down Input A and then press the Shift button, Input A still registers, and the Shift function does not do anything.  On the KeyWiz, if I am pressing input A and then press the Shazaaam! key, the KeyWiz immediately shifts from sending Input A to sending Shifted Input A.

This is fairly irrelevant, however, as the likelihood of this happening is fairly slim.

A bigger concern, which "I" was mentioning is that on either device, if I am NOT pressing Input A, and depress  the Shift/Shazaam key, then ANY remaining input will send it's shifted input on both encoders.

Therefore, as _Iz said, it's advantageous to have your standard and shifted inputs be the same whenever possible, to use the minimum number of shifted inputs, to not have Escape or Pause as shifted inputs so you don't inadvertantly exit your game, preferably to disable the alternate code swapping on the KeyWiz, and to never use shifted inputs for action buttons.  (That was sure a long-winded sentence.)

But that isn't the major issue either.  The major issue is how the shift key plays into the total number of inputs.

On the KeyWiz, the Shazaaam! input is separate from the other 32 inputs, so I could conceivably play 4-player , 4-button games with Stealth-Shifted inputs for coin and Start.

On the I-PAC, the shift key doubles as an input key, so I really have only 27 available inputs for action keys without getting into the issues above.  Because of this, even though the I-PAC theoretically should support 4-player 3-button games (28 action inputs), it no longer can if you start using shift keys for coin/start inputs.

Of course neither one was specifically designed for 4-player games, and either one can handle 2-player games just fine regardless.

And this has all been hashed out before, although many people still don't get it.

BTW, I'm telling both RandyT and Andy Warne how their products work without owning either one, so apologies if I got this wrong.

So there!

[eightbit]

For removable panels most people use one encoder and mount it in the cab and swap out just the controls. Swapping the encoder would require it to be hot swappable which may or may not work. You'd also have to buy an encoder for each panel which would be great for encoder sales but not really necessary. For rotating panels you have wires going in and out anyway, whats a couple more for the admin buttons? Personally I don't see those as valid reasons. I've never done a rotating panel though so what do I know?

Now if it was a stand alone slimmed down and cheaper (how much cheaper can it get and still be profitable?) than the keywiz I could see a niche for it. My pole position cab is going to need a couple inputs for admin and the shifter and I was debating using a encoder, hacking a kb or hacking a game pad for the 5 or 6 inputs I'm planning on. A encoder is overkill and gamepads have their own issues like not being able to work with my favorite front end. I am leaning towards a kb hack. If this new mini-encoder  had enough inputs for a one player cab it would be a cheaper solution for classic 1 player panels and if it could be combined with a 2 player encoder it could give you enough inputs for a 4 player panel.

[RandyT]

First things first:  The Disclaimer

For those of you who might be trying to follow along, I just want to remind you that all of this is very advanced and designed for those trying to maximize every possible input on a KeyWiz.  If all you need are 32 inputs or less, none of this will ever matter to you one way or the other and use of the KeyWiz is as simple, if not moreso than any other keyboard encoder.

There have been individuals that have added 10 or more "one-click" Shazaaam! buttons to their CP in addition to using every one of the 32 inputs of the KeyWiz.  This discussion will be of more interest to them than the average user.  

Let me point something out here.  What _Iz- is saying is that on the I-PAC, if I am holding down Input A and then press the Shift button, Input A still registers, and the Shift function does not do anything.  On the KeyWiz, if I am pressing input A and then press the Shazaaam! key, the KeyWiz immediately shifts from sending Input A to sending Shifted Input A.

Again, it depends on the wiring.  If, for example, the Shazaaam! definition for "Input A" were ESC, and you used that as a "one-click" Shazaaam! button, you can keep it from triggering accidentally by placing that input in the prioritized chain.  Doing this would result in that input being blocked, if it just happened to be in use when the Shazaaam! function was active.

This is fairly irrelevant, however, as the likelihood of this happening is fairly slim.

"I'll buy that for a dollar"  (you have to be a fan of the original Robocop movie )

Therefore, as _Iz said, it's advantageous to have your standard and shifted inputs be the same whenever possible, to use the minimum number of shifted inputs, to not have Escape or Pause as shifted inputs so you don't inadvertantly exit your game, preferably to disable the alternate code swapping on the KeyWiz, and to never use shifted inputs for action buttons.  (That was sure a long-winded sentence.)

Again, Pause and ESC wouldn't have issues when used as mentioned above, if they are prioritized.  This means that both couldn't be active at the same time.  Of course, for those two functions, you would never need them to be.

And I agree.  That method is certainly useful and can be used in conjunction with the above for even better control over the inputs.

Of course neither one was specifically designed for 4-player games, and either one can handle 2-player games just fine regardless.

This statement is only partially true, at least as it applies to the KeyWiz.  My main motivation was to make a 4 player panel achievable (with limitations, of course) with a standard KeyWiz.  That's why the emphasis on the number of inputs, big buffers, lean code, etc...  In other words, my vision was to offer a low-cost interface that would function for either a decked out 2 player with as many buttons and controls as one wanted, or a no-frills 4 player.  But the KeyWiz was definitely designed with this in mind.

RandyT

(sorry for taking this one off topic....only did so in the interest of accuracy)

[fogman]

I guess I am kind of surprised that no one sees the need for admin buttons that aren't shifted or at least that it is not a big deal.  With my rotating CP, I plan on having the emulator in the CP, so I don/t want to run a bunch of wires out of it.  I would like my admin buttons on the cab, and again would like to aviod a bunch of small gage wires.  I don't have a problem with using the shift, but I know if I have friends over and tell them "To select a game, hold down the Player 1 button and move the left joystick to the left" they would look at me like I grew a third eye.  I don't hang with the sharpest tools in the shed.

I absolutely undestand the economics- that if a smaller board would be the same price as a regular Keywiz or I-pac, then it would not be realistic- I could just buy a new one and reprogram it.

The problem I had with a secondary keypad is that hacking it would require setting the admin keys to the keypad equivalent.  Does anyone know if the comuter sees the new keypad as different then the regular number pad???

I was trying to avoid reprogramming the emulator or installing diodes and the like.  I have no electrical experience at all and do not want to end up buying a new I-Pac after frying the first, because I don't know how to install a diode.

Having said that, I think you both did a great job with your emulators.  I am duly impressed that you not only designed them, but also are able to market them and hope you are making decent money.  The I-Pac has been a huge help, I just wish I wasn't so cheap and bought the 4 instead of the 2!!!  Then I wouldn't have a problem at all.  Oh well, live and learn!

[eightbit]

I guess I am kind of surprised that no one sees the need for admin buttons that aren't shifted or at least that it is not a big deal.  With my rotating CP, I plan on having the emulator in the CP, so I don/t want to run a bunch of wires out of it.  I would like my admin buttons on the cab, and again would like to aviod a bunch of small gage wires.  I don't have a problem with using the shift, but I know if I have friends over and tell them "To select a game, hold down the Player 1 button and move the left joystick to the left" they would look at me like I grew a third eye.  I don't hang with the sharpest tools in the shed.

You can do admin buttons that aren't shifted. How many admin butons are you trying to get? A standard 2 player 6 button layout is 24 inputs with no admin buttons. On the ipac that leaves you 4 input and on the keywiz it leaves you with 8 inputs to use without shifting for admin functions. You are going to have wires goin in and out of your rotating panel no matter what. I don't see why a couple coin inputs and admin functions are a big deal. It would be more difficult to install and configure a secound encoder.

I was trying to avoid reprogramming the emulator or installing diodes and the like.  I have no electrical experience at all and do not want to end up buying a new I-Pac after frying the first, because I don't know how to install a diode.

You can't get away from having to configure the emulator. By default mame doesn't even map buttons 5 and 6 so you have to go in and set them. Why is it such a big deal to change other buttons? When you set up your buttons connect p1 start to "enter" and now you don't have to push shift left to start a game. You go into mame and change the default for p1 start to the enter key and your done. This is also front end specific. My front end uses the number 1 or the left ctrl key by default to lanch a game so I can start the selected game with p1 start or p1 button1. Are you using mame32 for your front end? Perhaps you should try a front end that is more configurable. Then you can change the buttons that launch the game or if you use the one I use stick with the defaults and you don't have to change anything.

[Tiger-Heli]

I guess I am kind of surprised that no one sees the need for admin buttons that aren't shifted or at least that it is not a big deal.

It's not usually a case of "I only used 18 inputs on my I-PAC, but let me use some clever shift functions for admin function instead of 10 unshifted inputs", more likely "I used 26 of my 28 inputs for action keys, and I still want Start, Coin, Pause, Esc, etc."

With my rotating CP, I plan on having the emulator in the CP, so I don/t want to run a bunch of wires out of it.  I would like my admin buttons on the cab, and >again would like to aviod a bunch of small gage wires.  

Your app SCREAMS for hacking a USB gamepad, keyboard, or that USB keypad above.

I don't have a problem with using the shift, but I know if I have friends over and tell them "To select a game, hold down the Player 1 button and move the left joystick to the left" they would look at me like I grew a third eye.  I don't hang with the sharpest tools in the shed.

That's the beauty of what I call the "Stealth-Shifted" inputs that RandyT introduced on the KeyWiz, and Andy is adding to the I-PAC.  The button on the panel is labelled "Quit", you press it, and it sends Shifted P2 Start to the encoder.  The encoder sends ESC to the PC, MAME quits.  No more remembering "Press this key and then this other one, and this happens"

I absolutely undestand the economics- that if a smaller board would be the same price as a regular Keywiz or I-pac, then it would not be realistic- I could just buy a new one and reprogram it.

Right, encoders are pretty reasonable now, there wouldn't be a huge cost savings building one with ten less inputs, and it couldn't compete with a $2.99 USB gamepad hack.

Does anyone know if the comuter sees the new keypad as different then the regular number pad???

Not sure what you're asking, here's some examples:

MAME knows the difference between the Numeric Pad and the "1" key on the standard keyboard.

MAME does not know the difference between Numeric Pad 1 on the USB pad, Numeric Pad 1 on the keyboard numeric pad, and Numeric Pad 1 sent from the keyboard encoder.

You can set any admin function to use the numeric pad buttons in MAME and any key that normally would use the numeric pad (none that I know of) to use something else.  This might not be true of all the programs you want to try with your cab, though.

I was trying to avoid reprogramming the emulator or installing diodes and the like.  I have no electrical experience at all and do not want to end up buying a new I-Pac after frying the first, because I don't know how to install a diode.

RandyT likes to call the KeyWiz an emulator, I find it confusing ;-(.  Reprogramming MAME is a piece of cake.  See Mameworld.net and the links to EasyEmu.  Reprogramming the encoders is pretty simple also, but you can easily set up MAME to use the encoder defaults, if you prefer.

Installing the diode improperly is unlikely to do anything other than maybe the individual buttons will send the shifted output instead of the regular output.  Now if you short some wires together soldering the diode blocks - . . .

I just wish I wasn't so cheap and bought the 4 instead of the 2!!!  Then I wouldn't have a problem at all.  Oh well, live and learn!

If you bought the 4, wouldn't you still have the problem you were trying to avoid of running the wires from the encoder on the rotating CP to the admin buttons on the fixed portion of the cab?

[bmcdonald]

I'm a newbie in the midst of building my first Control Panel using a new 32 input Mini-Pac.  I need One more button as I'm using EVERY input on that sucker including the two mouse buttons.  I visited Radio Shack to purchase the capacitor, resistor and diodes to get one more button out of my rig and have a question.......What type of diode do I need?    Zener Diode?  12-volt?  5.1 volt?  or Switching Diode?

My CP is comprised of an Oscar spinner, Happ Trackball, 2- mouse buttons, 2 Mag-Stick Plus joysticks, and 8 button for each player
My scheme is to have the following admin buttons:  Player 1, Player 2, Coin 1, Coin 2, Pause, Enter, Exit, Volume up, Volume Down. 
Another options is that I could go down to 7 buttons per player and just have enough.  Which way would you go?  Is having 8 buttons per player useful ?

[BobA]

Go to 7 buttons per player.   Don't know where you would use 8.