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Author Topic: LCD Screen Opinions...?  (Read 8982 times)

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H2obuffalo

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LCD Screen Opinions...?
« on: April 12, 2013, 08:37:35 pm »
Hi everybody!

I am gathering the parts for my cocktail Project. I am thinking about using a LCD arcade monitor for ease of installation and to leave enough room for the coin mechs and old computer parts.
Could I have your opinions on these new replacement arcade LCDs are they bright and really viewable from any angle?
I have yet to see one in person except possibly in Las Vegas on the slots.
Has anybody used this particular model?
 :http://www.ebay.com/itm/19-Arcade-Game-LCD-Monitor-for-Arcade-Cabinets-MAME-/330677710380?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfded6e2c

Love to hear about your experiences with these.
Thanks!
H2oBuffalo


Unstupid

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2013, 09:55:50 pm »
I have it (sitting in a box next to my desk)... It's not good for cocktail cabs as it is a TN panel and the lower side of the screen...   With a cocktail you want something with good viewing angles from all sides..  So look for an 4x3 (5x4) 19" IPS (impossible to find) or PVA (expensive) monitor.  I ended up with a NEC EA191M PVA monitor.  It was $400 shipped but it looks fabulous!  Here is another thread where these 19" cocktail monitors were discussed:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=130389

Gatt

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2013, 11:53:10 pm »
I have it (sitting in a box next to my desk)... It's not good for cocktail cabs as it is a TN panel and the lower side of the screen...   With a cocktail you want something with good viewing angles from all sides..  So look for an 4x3 (5x4) 19" IPS (impossible to find) or PVA (expensive) monitor.  I ended up with a NEC EA191M PVA monitor.  It was $400 shipped but it looks fabulous!  Here is another thread where these 19" cocktail monitors were discussed:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=130389

Would IPS be a good buy though?  IPS traditionally has very high input lag,  often several frames from the reviews I've read at anandtech.  For a arcade monitor,  that'd probably be a major downside.

TN panels tend to have very little input lag,  but as you say,  the viewing angle would be a major problem with a cocktail.

I'm not sure about PVA,  I'd recommend researching any panels for input lag pretty extensively before buying.

I'm not sure there really is a good solution for a cocktail with an LCD panel as the display.

H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2013, 12:30:08 am »
Thanks for the input guys!

Too bad about the Holland Computing LCD being a stinker, I had high hopes on that one. Glad I did not order it for my cocktail.
 
I have my trusty Viewsonic 17" CRT but that suckers more than 2 feet deep and  I don't know what else I can fit in a cocktail cab even after de-casing it. HMM,  maybe with scan line generator and the right video card...sigh...!

 The EA192M by NEC was discussed in the other post seems like a nice fit.Found them for $250+ on Amazon before shipping. Kind of expensive for an old Monitor. Are they that good?  how do I find out about the input lag issue. That has to be a buzzkill for gamers.
 
 Hey, Has anybody made a list of "Ultra-junk" lcd monitors? Ones that have a delay, really slow refresh, horrible viewing angles This could make for a very useful reference for people shopping for replacements.

OK, how about this.

Let's start posting those "moniTURD" models to avoid that we may benefit from the experience of those who have gone before us.

H2oBuffalo

MonMotha

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2013, 07:08:54 am »
FWIW, IPS monitors don't typically have much lag.  They DO have the lowest response time of the major technologies, so you'll get some ghosting on fast motion.  It varies and has been getting better with time and on some designs, though sometimes at the expense of introducing a little lag (same reason/tradeoff as below), seems like typically no more than 2 frames.  Look for a good H-IPS display.  IPS have far and away the best viewing angles of all the popular LCD technologies.  Off-axis viewing tends to just make them look dim rather than exhibiting any color shift.  Good LED backlit IPS panels can have amazing contrast, and RGB LED or quality CCFL backlighting can reproduce gamuts well in excess of 100% NTSC.  IPS panels tend to be the most expensive of the three major technologies.

VA (PVA, MVA, S-PVA, etc.) tends to have good response time, but getting that requires non-causal overdrive calculations that require the monitor to exhibit "lag" i.e. latency from input to even starting the transition.  Hence, they have low ghosting, but the delay may make it intolerable for gaming.  Lag is sometimes upwards of 4-6 frames or even more!  The latency vs. response time is a major trade-off on VA designs and different panels make the trade-off differently.  VA type panels typically have good horizontal viewing angles but mediocre vertical viewing angles, especially from below, where they'll color shift.  A common trick when using these (and TN) in arcade games is to mount them upside-down since you're typically viewing from below or straight on but almost never from above.  Gamuts can be decent but varies highly with panel design.

TN panels have the most variability.  They can exhibit potentially very low response time with low latency.  Viewing angles are usually the poorest of the major technologies but this is again highly variable with panel design.  Rather than just get dim when viewed off-axis, they tend to rapidly color-shift to the point of being unusable, sometimes as little as 15-30 degress off-axis.  Most of these panels are actually only 6-bit color and require tricks such as multi-pixel or time-based dithering to get 8-bits per channel color, and this is objectionable to some, especially on larger displays with lower pixel density (the "dancing pixels" problem).  This also limits the panels' effective gamut in many cases, and they're usually paired with low quality backlights due to this (no need for a better one).  TN panels tend to be the cheapest.

Of course, any given panel may make different tradeoffs that make it stand out in one way or another from its underlying general technology's typical patterns.

If you're going really big (42" 16:9 or bigger) for some purpose, you might also consider a plasma.  They'll burn badly in a typical monitor application, but home-use-only situations tend to not put many hours on them, and they're cheap enough to just throw away and replace when they burn.  Even cheap ones usually have contrast ratios rivaling LCDs costing several times more, viewing angles are superb, response time is comparable to a CRT, and you can get them with pretty low lag.

I'm really hoping to see desktop computer sized OLED panels some time soon.  Samsung is making 1920x1080 panels at cell-phone sizes now.  They're pentile, but at that pixel density you'll never notice.

H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 11:13:38 am »
Wow!
Thank you for posting that info I had no idea there were so many different LCD configurations.
 My head is a spinnin' with questions now. :dizzy:
Now I hunt...
I need to find the Unicorn of LCD's

* Bright picture
* Low res capable but 1024x 768 available
* Viewable from all four sides
* no skipped frames
* 4/3 ratio. I hate wide screen.
* Needs to be mounted in a COCKTAIL CAB

Has anybody found anything close to these requirements?



cmoses

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LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 04:23:38 pm »

I am building a cocktail MAME cabinet currently and I am using a Dell 19" 5:4 monitor. The model is Dell 1905FP. It's not perfect, I don't think they exist at this time but it meets all of my needs.  It has good viewing angles from all four sides.  Bright screen. Fits well in my cocktail cabinet. Was not expensive. Does 1024x768 and looks good. Itcan do 640x480 as well. It's native resolution is1280x1024, but I run HyperSpin at 1024x768 because that's it native resolution and this way I don't have to run with smoothing on. I use MAME's HLSL features to do scan lines and the monitor looks really good.

Should be easy to find one and use it in your build.

Sent from my iPad Mini using Tapatalk HD

H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 10:39:22 pm »
Looks like the Dell might be my ticket!

Thanks for all your input.

A Hunting I will go!

Cheers! :cheers:

Unstupid

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2013, 10:46:27 pm »
Here I put together a video that may help.  I also tested the "lag" and they were both identical at an indiscernible 1 frame.  I tested measuring the time when I clicked the button til the time Ms Pac moved on the scree.   Now I'm not sure if the 1 frame lag was from the monitor displaying the image after receiving the signal, or from the Arcade SD jamma board I'm using, or the SLG3000 In between the monitor and the jamma board, or a combination of all 3.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 11:47:09 pm by Unstupid »

Toadie

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2013, 11:49:22 pm »
I'm just starting to collect my parts as well but I'm going with a UA II model.  Any tips on what to get and what size?  I've seen everything from 17 to 19 to 27.  How do you know where to start with displays?

H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 07:03:25 pm »
Thanks a bunch for posting that video UNSTUPID, I really appreciate it.

That really shows what I am looking to avoid. Color shift...YUCK! that is a deal breaker for me.

I know it is a lot to ask but Hey CMOSES would you be able to make a similar video or even screen shot of your Dell 1905FP as viewed from the angles. It would be a great comparison and show what $379.00 for the NEC buys you vs $50.00 for a used Dell.

Thanks again guys this Thread is proving very helpful to me and I hope many others. My HP 1740 17" el cheapo goes rather dim when viewed any angle but head on, has a ultra slow 60ns refresh rate,(my ghosts have ghosts;) but at least no color shift.

Cheers H2obuffalo


)

idsane

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2013, 10:55:48 pm »
This thread :http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120410.0.html is a good resource. It lists a lot of Dell pva panels. I ended up making a craigslist search to include all these monitors in one simple search. I got my dell 19" for $20 on craigs. Doing a search now I see lots of these for %$50 or less in my area.

cmoses

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LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 02:17:24 pm »
H2obuffalo,

The Dell 1905FP has a Samsung PVA panel in it.  It will look just like the NEC EA 191M (second monitor) shown in Unstupid's video. It has the good viewing angles from all 4 sides. I tested another monitor at one point and it had a TN panel and had the same issue as the first monitor in the video.  One side having poor viewing angle and color distortion. That is why I stuck with Dell 1905FP. None of the sides has the color distortion/washed out look. It's a great monitor for a cocktail cabinet. Good viewing angles, 4 good sides and pretty cheap and available.


Sent from my iPad Mini using Tapatalk HD
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 02:22:18 pm by cmoses »

H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 08:48:13 pm »
Woo Hoo!!

Winner I found a guy on craigslist with lots o' these Dell 1905FP for $50 only bout a 45 minute drive!
Thanks everybody for all your help.

Time to build!

 :cheers:

H2oBuffalo

cmoses

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LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 02:06:32 am »
Let us know when you get it and what your thoughts are on it.


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H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 11:38:43 pm »
Hopefully this weekend! If the guy replies back.

I'll post a full review!

Thanks again for all of your time and help.

Cheers!
H2obuffalo

BobA

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2013, 12:18:35 am »
I purchased a pile of Dell 1905 FP monitors when a business upgraded their monitors.   The Dells are a solidly build monitor with tilt and swivel.  They are easily placed in the vertical position but I do not like them set that way because they have very bad washout or color change when viewed off side to the left of the screen.  This corresponds to the bottom of the screen if looking at it in the horizontal position.   As far as I can see there is nothing special about the Dell 1905 FP in viewing angles.  They wash out like most other LCD TFT screens.

Here is the spec that I found when I entered the model number.


Quick Specifications

    Release date10/4/04
    Display Type LCD display / TFT active matrix
    Diagonal Size 19 in
    Display interface VGA (HD-15) DVI
    Max Resolution 1280 x 1024 / 75 Hz
    Dot pitch 0.294 mm
    Aspect ratio 4:3
    Contrast ratio 800:1
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 12:53:24 am by BobA »

Unstupid

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2013, 12:21:41 am »
I'm wondering if they used different types of panels in the same model number like they did the 2001fp's?

BobA

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2013, 12:51:17 am »
Looking at the docs further it looks like many panels were used to be able to give better response time etc.   It may be prudent to test the particular monitor you want to buy by looking at it from the bottom of the screen or rotating it and looking at an angle from the left side since serial numbers and model numbers do not tell the whole story.   Apparently there is a sequence of control presses that will reveal what screen is being used but apparently dell changed the software so you cannot do it in later models.


H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2013, 07:41:55 am »
Hmm...I had planned on testing the angles before purchase. The seller apparently has many many monitors available. I will certainly take photos of the display layed down flat and from all four sides. I shall have my answer and post photos.
 :cheers:
H20buffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2013, 02:06:52 pm »
Yes, with Dell, you generally get the play the panel lottery.  They use the same model number for years and years going so far as to replace essentially every component of the monitor during that time.  The reason apparently is that it makes IT procurement at megacorps easier: they don't have to get a new model number on the approved purchase list. Nevermind that it's not actually the same thing; it has the same model number!

The infamous 2001fp started off with S-IPS panels in the early-mid 2000s then converted to S-PVA panels.  I don't know what they're using now.

H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2013, 09:10:41 pm »
Well, I could not find the Dell 1905fp but I did find a Dell 1907FPt for $40 on craigslist.
I could not resist.
It was in pristine condition and right in my neck o' the woods.
So, the 1907FPt has:
 *Good picture! very bright colors nice deep blacks, decent refresh rate.
 *A pivoting base and a 90 deg.rotatable screen.
 *a mysterious black button on the back Who knows what it could be?! self destruct?  :dunno
I plunked her down flat to check viewing angles on a coffee table.
Vertically looked good from both sides. Woo Hoo!
walked to the side for a horizontal check... DOH! yucky color shift. The other horizontal side looks great though.
Hmmm, three out of four sides for good viewing.
 Still, not a bad find. I wil probably stick it In the cocktail anyway untill I find the perfect LCD.

Cheers!

H2obuffalo.

BobA

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2013, 10:42:21 pm »
The button on the back releases the stand so you can get at the vesa mount screws.

H2obuffalo

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2013, 01:23:45 pm »
OOOO! Yep that's what it does! almost dropped that sucker when
I pushed it in hard to test. ::)
Thanks!

lettuce

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2013, 08:01:12 pm »
the HP LP2065 or LP1965 are good shouts, they are the odd exception in that they have a wide range of refresh rates 45-75 (via analog input). Not sure what panel they have but the viewing angles are good

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 09:33:48 am »
If 19" 4:3 plasma TVs were made they'd be pretty much ideal, I think, but I don't see that happening, ever.

happyfunball

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 10:10:20 am »
this may be the right thread for this question. I also picked up an lcd with the intention of making a cocktail out of it. it looks good from any angle so everythign is good there.
however. what do people do about the power and adjustment buttons on the edge? if you put this under glass how do you access those buttons to turn it off/on, or is there another method?


sandheaver

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 10:25:18 am »
this may be the right thread for this question. I also picked up an lcd with the intention of making a cocktail out of it. it looks good from any angle so everythign is good there.
however. what do people do about the power and adjustment buttons on the edge? if you put this under glass how do you access those buttons to turn it off/on, or is there another method?

That right there is one reason why arcade monitors exist.  They turn on when they get power.

One option would be to leave the monitor plugged in and let it go into standby when you flip the power switch off.  If you're using a digital connection, you need not worry about adjustments.

chopperthedog

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 11:15:53 am »
this may be the right thread for this question. I also picked up an lcd with the intention of making a cocktail out of it. it looks good from any angle so everythign is good there.
however. what do people do about the power and adjustment buttons on the edge? if you put this under glass how do you access those buttons to turn it off/on, or is there another method?

That right there is one reason why arcade monitors exist.  They turn on when they get power.

One option would be to leave the monitor plugged in and let it go into standby when you flip the power switch off.  If you're using a digital connection, you need not worry about adjustments.
I have never seen an lcd screen that didn't power on automatically when power was applied to it. If you de case the screen the buttons are usually on a pcb strip with a ribbon cable. You can extend cable if needed to have screen adjustments in a place you can reach. Mine is just mounted under the table top (see pic).


good day.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 11:18:14 am by chopperthedog »

sandheaver

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 11:24:51 am »
I have never seen an lcd screen that didn't power on automatically when power was applied to it.

Really?  I just tested three of mine and none of them did; they showed nothing except the "I'm not turned on" color on the LED and they showed no picture.  Mayhaps it depends on whether they were turned on or off when the power was cut.

< a few moments later >

Yep that seems to be it.  If they're turned on when the power is cut, they turn back on.  problem solved.

happyfunball

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2013, 11:30:38 am »
this may be the right thread for this question. I also picked up an lcd with the intention of making a cocktail out of it. it looks good from any angle so everythign is good there.
however. what do people do about the power and adjustment buttons on the edge? if you put this under glass how do you access those buttons to turn it off/on, or is there another method?

That right there is one reason why arcade monitors exist.  They turn on when they get power.

One option would be to leave the monitor plugged in and let it go into standby when you flip the power switch off.  If you're using a digital connection, you need not worry about adjustments.
I have never seen an lcd screen that didn't power on automatically when power was applied to it. If you de case the screen the buttons are usually on a pcb strip with a ribbon cable. You can extend cable if needed to have screen adjustments in a place you can reach. Mine is just mounted under the table top (see pic).


good day.

yea, i sort of figured this might be one option. the point where I have to worry about this is still some point in the future so I wasn't overly concerned but figured its probably something that should be accounted for before any work is done.

CpCaveman

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2013, 04:11:28 pm »
The phrase "ignorance is bliss" has never been more apt :) , never even thought of all these problems when i bought my monitor, ended up with a samsung 19" model: 940B S (guessing the S means silver) , currently in my upright cabinet, looked at it from all angles would be great in a cocktail table bought it for £30 on ebay including postage came with a 90deg rotating stand as well. just thought it`d be another model you could look out for  :dunno

as for the powering on, I`m using a "power saving multi socket" (the one with a master socket (pc) and 3 slave sockets (240v marquee light,12v led/sound transformer, and monitor) so I switch on the pc , then the monitor (etc) gets power and starts straight up havent had any problem with the monitor and stand by mode, also stuck adhesive rubber strip around the edges between the monitor and the bezel (with a gap cut around the buttons so they cant be "pressed" when someone hits the plastic front.
Hit something hard enough it should work, if it dont the result can always be called art :)

Mental

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2013, 07:07:32 pm »
I'm pretty happy with the NEC EA192M in my cocktails. As long as the bottom side of the monitor is on the back side of the cabinet, against a wall, you're fine. The other 3 angles are great.
Complete cocktail arcade system: arcadecabinets.ca

michelevit

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2013, 02:46:38 pm »
Unless your building a cocktail, I'm not sure why the picture needs to be perfect from looking from the sides.
The viewing angle should be in front on the monitor, not the sides or above or below it. Your playing DIG-DUG, not
color matching a high resolution digipic with Photoshop.

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2013, 02:49:46 pm »
Unless your building a cocktail, I'm not sure why the picture needs to be perfect from looking from the sides.
The viewing angle should be in front on the monitor, not the sides or above or below it. Your playing DIG-DUG, not
color matching a high resolution digipic with Photoshop.

If you're using it on a two player cab, you might start seeing issues...
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michelevit

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2013, 03:12:18 pm »
A two player upright cab shouldnt have problems.
If the players are standing shoulder to shoulder like a streetfighter cab, the viewing angle is essentially head on.
The colors dont shift until the angle substantially changes. The above video demonstrates that nicely.

Whats next? Everyone needs 4k monitors to play Arcade Classics that commonly had resolutions of less than 300*300.

Its silly to demand such high level equipment just to emulate low fi gaming.


Unstupid

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2013, 03:25:17 pm »
Side to side is not bad.  It'll only be a problem if you are looking at it from the bottom nearer to the control panel.  But the only people looking at it from that angle would be short people and short people are not supposed to play arcade games!  :)

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Re: LCD Screen Opinions...?
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2013, 04:02:39 pm »
Its silly to demand such high level equipment just to emulate low fi gaming.

Yes and no.  There are LCD monitors which fringe and color-shift significantly even at slight angles, though I agree most monitors don't suffer this.  I'm talking a vertically mounted monitor, here, for a 2 player simultaneous game like 1942 and its kin.

And I think it is important to mention that it is not high-level equipment that is sought, it is (in this case) high-level usability.  If it takes a high-end monitor to provide the viewing angles that a CRT would have offered, then, yeah, a high-end monitor or CRT will be required if you want to do it properly.

Again, I think the best arcade monitor ever sold would be a 19", 4:3 ratio plasma.  Plasma televisions are (were?) cheap to manufacture, use calibrated phosphors, are very bright, have excellent viewing angles, very fast response times, and much higher phosphor lifetimes than CRTs.

edit: small grammatical fix-em-ups.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 04:13:28 pm by sandheaver »