RGB Buttons on a 4p build

[Kupoppo]

Hi all,

New to the forums, but have gotten a lot of good info that's helped me in planning a build.  One area I'm still a little stuck/overwhelmed with trying to get my facts straight is exactly what parts are needed for complete RGB LED buttons.  I've done some searching around for a good post that explains everything - if I'm still missing it please feel free to let me know and delete this post.

In my case, after a lot of debate I've decided to go forward with a 4-player build with 6 buttons for each player.  From what I understand, each unique button is going to require 3 channels from an LED controller.  I also understand that you can chain buttons together to control the same set of RGB values for multiple buttons at once using only one set of channels from the controller.  Applying this together I can make my setup work to my desires (6 buttons 100% unique for P1/P2, 6 buttons with 4 unique combinations for P3/P4, grouping upper left + upper mid together and lower left + lower mid together.  If I'm correct that would leave me with 60 channels required, and leave me with enough channels to do a lit/not lit P1/P2/P3/P4 start button if I plan to use a single 64-channel LED controller.  Is this all possible?  Am I correct in my assumptions on the basic wiring requirements?

If the previous paragraph is more or less correct and what I'm planning to do is feasible, this leads to the part that I'm REALLY wrestling with: picking out my exact buttons.  I'm just getting a little overwhelmed due to the sheer number of products out there.  I'm finding clear/frosted buttons that can be lit with add-on LED's or rings, white LED buttons that it seems like might be possible to replace the LED with an RGB LED, and I'm finding finished product LED buttons.  Ideally I'd like to get away from something approaching $7/button if possible since I'm looking at a ballpark of close to 30 buttons - is this possible?  Is the wiring fairly standardized, or do I have to make sure my buttons will be compatible with my controller/encoder somehow?

Any guidance would be GREATLY appreciated, I've already leaned pretty heavily on these forums getting as far as I am

[Nephasth]

On the Beast I have 7 buttons for P1/P2 and 4 buttons for P3/p4 (plus a start button for each). All of my button RGBs are individually controlled, and I had to use 2 PACLED64s to light them. As far as pricing, RGB buttons are going to be expensive no matter how you go, but you can cut out quite a chunk in price if you buy 5mm RGB clear lens LEDs off ebay from China and solder/wire them up yourself. However, I've found you don't get even lighting across the whole button when doing this, and buttons light up better with the RGB LEDs vendors offer, as they were designed for this purpose (hence the higher price).

Parts are a lot like oats. If you want quality oats, you have to pay a fair price. If you want oats that have been through the horse already... well, those are a little cheaper.

[Kupoppo]

Haha, love the analogy.

Yeah, as this is my first build I wasn't so much sure if this would be closer to, well, oats, or to pre-shelled nuts.  I don't mind a little elbow grease or a few extra decisions to get me where I need to go, just as long as the end product is just as good.  If it has to be higher cost to do it right then so be it, doing it right is the whole reason I'm looking at RGB buttons in the first place

So if I went with, say, Ultimarc's ClassicRGB LED Pushbuttons and a PACLED64, would that be more or less everything I need, aside from the encoder to bring the input to the PC?

PS: Nice build!  Gosh that makes me all the more excited to get physically working on this soon

[Nephasth]

Thanks. Those would work if that's the look you're looking for. A PACLED64 can control only 21 RGB LEDs though, so if you're looking at 30 buttons, you'd need another PACLED64. Personally, as you can see, I like the look of translucent IL button barrels coupled with black IL button plungers. One thing that is of concern (as I can't find the info), is the length of wires on those LEDs from Ultimarc. It may be an issue when determining where to mount the LED controller, but won't be if you're comfortable lengthening the harnesses or making your own. Don't forget about your coin door reject button lights, you can convert those to LEDs easily and control them with the PACLED64 as well. You'll need to use the LEDBlinky software to control the outputs of your LED controller too.

[Kupoppo]

There will be a grand total of 20 unique RGB combinations I need, so I should be able to wire a couple to the same ports on a single controller - right?  I think if I had my choice of everything I'd want something frosted, I just linked those because I've not really done much similar wiring before and they seemed advertised as more of a pre-assembled solution.  Any recommendations for someone just getting into this all?  Generally I'm a pretty quick learner, but I've not really done a lot similar to this so knowing what to shop for can be difficult.  Thus the post here

[Nephasth]

There will be a grand total of 20 unique RGB combinations I need, so I should be able to wire a couple to the same ports on a single controller - right?  I think if I had my choice of everything I'd want something frosted, I just linked those because I've not really done much similar wiring before and they seemed advertised as more of a pre-assembled solution.  Any recommendations for someone just getting into this all?  Generally I'm a pretty quick learner, but I've not really done a lot similar to this so knowing what to shop for can be difficult.  Thus the post here

Not necessarily. You have to check the ratings of the particular LEDs you'll be using. I know from experience that I couldn't hook up two individual RGBs to the same ports on the PACLED64, as they would draw more current than what the outputs were rated for. Send Andy and email and ask him if you'd be able to double up LEDs on some ports with the LEDs he sells.

[Kupoppo]

Whoops, and NOW I find Jace's post from August where he compares all the different RGB solutions.  I think I've more or less got the pieces straight in my head.  Thank you especially for turning me on to the output limitations on the controllers.  May need to double up on PACLED's, but hopefully the next post I have will be an announcement of "Hey I built this"

Got a lot of ideas, but more or less I'm trying hard to trot that line and create a feasibly functional 4p arcade cabinet that doesn't LOOK like a monster, looks more like a... well... arcade cabinet.

Thanks again Nephasth

[Nephasth]

No problem. And that post you're referring to only covers a few of the options out there. Keep digging, the design process is a lot of fun.

[RandyT]

Two LED-Wiz's will do what you want, if you want to use multiple LED's on a single output.  The LED-Wiz can drive up to 25 LED's on one output, so doubling, tripling, etc, won't be an issue.  It also has enough current to drive cabinet lighting, high output trackball lighting etc., should you be able to configure the panel in a way to have some outputs left over.

There are many examples on the forums showing how this can be done.  It's pretty simple once you get a few of the basic principles down.  If you still are unclear, there are lot of good folks here with the experience to get you over the humps.

RandyT

[Kupoppo]

Thank you Randy, definitely some food for thought as that'd solve a few other issues   I guess my button quantity is kind of odd with 24 buttons I'm hoping to light in some combination.  Really my purposes would be best met by a 72-output controller (giving me true unique buttons in my 4x6 setup), so it sounds like I may just have to bite the increased cost and either double up on PACLED's or triple up on LED-Wiz's.

So I know this is off-topic, but seeing your "Friends don't let friends hack keyboards." text I have to ask - all I've been seeing out there has been keyboard encoder after keyboard encoder after keyboard encoder.  I've about resigned myself  to taking apart a few joypads - any better suggestions?

[thatpurplestuff]

Hey Randy, I don't mean to hijack the thread but do you have any idea when you'll have more Electric Ice 2 pushbuttons in stock?

Kupoppo- I don't have any experience using PACLED's, but I've used the LEDwiz and it's pretty awesome.  It's powering my Skeeball machine lighting and works great... plus if you ever wanted to make some personal customizations down the line, the LEDwiz software makes it very easy and you can even control the lighting via the OS clipboard if you wanted.  Up to your personal preferences though, and like I said I haven't used the PACLED but I've heard it is good as well.

[Nephasth]

For a 4 player setup, you can't go wrong with a Lono². I love mine. They're out of stock currently, but it would be worth an email to them to see if they'll be back in stock anytime soon.

[RandyT]

So I know this is off-topic, but seeing your "Friends don't let friends hack keyboards." text I have to ask - all I've been seeing out there has been keyboard encoder after keyboard encoder after keyboard encoder.  I've about resigned myself  to taking apart a few joypads - any better suggestions?

10 years ago, when the first KeyWiz version was introduced, there weren't as many options in the marketplace, so a lot of people were still hacking keyboards (and gamepads).  That text has been there since that day .  But there are a lot of potential negatives, and more work involved.  The cost savings aren't that great either, and cheap probably won't get you the same performance, even today.  Most folks don't even consider hacking keyboards nowadays, but the sentiment is still valid.

If you even considered hacking gamepads, it sounds like you can do some soldering.  The lower cost Eco version of our encoders are very easy to solder to, as the pads and holes are large and widely spaced.  While I don't think I would go for a full 6 buttons on player 3 and 4 (the 2 extras per joystick will likely be underutilized), two of the GP-Wiz Eco boards (if you have a PS/2 port on the system, I'd recommend 1 KeyWiz Eco and 1 GP-Wiz Eco), would give you total of 80 inputs you can do whatever you want with, and at a very decent price.  But if the extra cost of the terminal block versions isn't a deal breaker for you, they are much more convenient.

If you have any questions about this, feel free to send me an email.

RandyT

[PL1]

So I know this is off-topic, but seeing your "Friends don't let friends hack keyboards." text I have to ask - all I've been seeing out there has been keyboard encoder after keyboard encoder after keyboard encoder.

There are two common categories of keyboard encoders, matrix encoders (inputs connected to rows and columns) and discrete input encoders. (one input per button)

Keyboard hacks use matrix encoders.  They suffer from problems like Key Ghosting or Key Blocking.

The advantage to a matrix encoder is that a 104-key keyboard only needs 8 rows and 13 columns (8x13=104) instead of 104 discrete inputs.

Keyboard-style encoders like the Key-Wiz, IPac, and KADE use discrete inputs and don't suffer from ghosting or blocking.


Scott

[Kupoppo]

Holy cow, guys, THANK YOU!  So much good information and so many good pointers.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like if I'm going to go with 4 X-Arcade 4/8 Way Joysticks and a total of 30 buttons then one Lono2 would take care of that (if they become available again), or I could use a duo of Key-Wiz's.  Is this correct or am I messing up the math confusing what counts as how many inputs 

So many interrelated pieces to all of this, but learning how it all works was half the allure of the project to begin with. 

In any event I cannot thank you all enough for your replies and pointers

[PL1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like if I'm going to go with 4 X-Arcade 4/8 Way Joysticks

I'd avoid those since there have been a number of quality/gameplay complaints.

Also, you're already ordering your encoder from a different vendor.

Better quality stick + not having to pay separate shipping = win.  YMMV.

and a total of 30 buttons then one Lono2 would take care of that (if they become available again), or I could use a duo of Key-Wiz's.  Is this correct or am I messing up the math confusing what counts as how many inputs 

In your original post, you mentioned you wanted this for your panel
16 inputs - 4 inputs/joystick x 4 players
24 inputs - 6 buttons x 4 players
8 inputs - Coin/start buttons x 4 players
2+? inputs - Exit, Pause, maybe other admin buttons like Enter, Menu?
----
50+? inputs

Since you have 6 buttons for P3 and P4, I'm guessing that you want to run some other emulators as well as MAME. (Max # buttons used by P3 in MAME = 4, same for P4)

Depending on the emulator you want to use, some are less configurable than MAME and may require keyboard inputs instead of HID gamepad button inputs.

There are programs like Joy2key and Xpadder that can convert gamepad inputs to keystrokes.

Bryan just restocked the Lono2.

The other option to consider is the IPac4. (56 inputs, same as the Lono2)

The 2 KeyWiz option will be more expensive and since the KeyWiz has to reload any changes to the default keymap on bootup, it isn't the best choice for this particular build.


Scott
EDIT: Misread the Lono2 specs on Paradise. -- Thanks for the clarification, Nep.

[Nephasth]

Bryan just restocked the Lono2.

The other option to consider is the IPac4. (56 inputs, same as the Lono2)

Scott

Sorry Scott, but I have to correct a little misinformation. The Lono² supports 4 joysticks and 56 buttons, that's a total of 72 inputs.

On a side note, both the Lono² and IPAC4 cost $65. However, the Lono² comes with wiring harnesses, a USB cable, and mounting feet. Those can only be had with the IPAC4 at an additional cost (a PS/2 cable is included, but if you want USB it's $4 more).

[Kupoppo]

Sounds like a Lono2 for me.

So since essentially you guys have helped me reach decisions on EVERYTHING I was trying to wrap my mind around, hopefully you'll suffer one more question 

If those X-Arcade joysticks are problematic - any recommendations?  You are correct in assuming I'm planning on doing emulation beyond MAME for 3P/4P.  SNES is a major consideration(yes, even though the shoulder buttons are laid out horizontally), as well as a few other misc games across a few other platforms.  Even have my eye on a few PC games that will translate well into an arcade format and will make use of extra buttons.

My understanding is that I'd either want an 8-way, or a 4/8 way that I can somehow toggle a switch on through packaged software or something programmable via some form of SDK (preferable).  I'm not sure I can think of too many true 4-way games I'm that interested in, but a lot of the good retro classics are... so... it'd be nice to have the ability to toggle.  Not sure I'd end up caring though if it came to a matter of building in a way to get underneath the sticks and physically toggle a switch.

Am I off target, or is this realistic?  I hear Happ mentioned a lot on joysticks, and do like the look of this joystick... not to mention I'm getting my panel custom designed and split into 4 different "themed" zones for the 4 different players, so the multi-color joysticks are incorporatable into a theme - major bonus points there.

[Nephasth]

If you want joysticks that autoswitch from 8way to 4way based on game selection, pick up 2 U360s or 2 Servostiks, and 2 JLWs. The JLWs you can use for P3 and P4 since you don't need those to switch to 4way. The switchable sticks you should use for P1 and P2, keep in mind though, that they come at a premium, but for a good reason. You know, oats 'n ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

If you go that direction, I highly recommend getting stiff springs for all your sticks (Ultimarc sells these, and they work in the JLWs as well).

[Kupoppo]

...well I WAS having a perfectly normal morning.  Now thanks to looking up the U360's I believe I need to change my pants

Thanks so much, Nephasth and others.  You've given this steaming pile of meadow muffin a lot of high quality oats for his 4p build 

[RandyT]

The 2 KeyWiz option will be more expensive and since the KeyWiz has to reload any changes to the default keymap on bootup, it isn't the best choice for this particular build.

A:  You can't use two KeyWiz's on one computer.  PS/2 doesn't allow for that.  The best option for this many inputs is a KeyWiz for P1, P2, and admin, with an add-on GP-Wiz for everything else.  This provides 2 independent processors for handling all of those inputs.  It also provides for actual keyboard input where it will matter most for highest compatibility.  99.9% of the time, it is unnecessary to change the mapping, even for this kind of layout.

B: Unlike another item recommended here, every input on GGG controllers has it's own dedicated I/O line on the chip, i.e. they are not matrixed controllers.  Most of the time, with proper diodes and internal code, matrixes can work ok.  But there are some devices which require an actual ground, like a P360 joystick, and will not work properly with these types of  controllers.  I have also seen at least one post by an individual with unresolved EMI issues affecting a 4 player cabinet, which isn't surprising.  A matrixed design is more susceptible  to these, as a glitch on any part of the matrix can fire multiple unwanted inputs.  For what it's worth, if I decided to make a KeyWiz as a matrixed controller, it would be able to provide 144 inputs, but there's reasons why we don't do it, and it's not because it's not capable of it.

C:  $51.90 buys the two of the above Eco boards, which provides dual processors and 80 dedicated inputs.  If soldering isn't an issue, then it's very high on the "bang for buck" scale.  With industrial quality screw terminals, that number goes to $73.90.  Regardless of the version, it also has an added bonus of supporting 2 rotary joysticks, if that is something of interest.

There are many options out there, so it's important to do the research and pick the one which will be right for your particular build and performance expectations.

[Kupoppo]

A:  You can't use two KeyWiz's on one computer.  PS/2 doesn't allow for that.  The best option for this many inputs is a KeyWiz for P1, P2, and admin, with an add-on GP-Wiz for everything else.  This provides 2 independent processors for handling all of those inputs.  It also provides for actual keyboard input where it will matter most for highest compatibility.  99.9% of the time, it is unnecessary to change the mapping, even for this kind of layout.

Actually I was looking at 2 of the GP's due to the computer understanding them as joypads.  That way I can prevent using a keyboard encoder entirely, plus I just generally prefer this as a solution.  Is it possible?

[RandyT]

Actually I was looking at 2 of the GP's due to the computer understanding them as joypads.  That way I can prevent using a keyboard encoder entirely, plus I just generally prefer this as a solution.  Is it possible?

Absolutely.  There is a common issue among all joypad based controllers, but it is not insurmountable.  Some applications outside of MAME (where this isn't an issue) have hardcoded functions attached to specific keys.  ESC is a common key requirement where this is the case.  To use a button for this function on a joypad based controller, an extra piece of free 3rd party software is required.  This is why I usually recommend a KeyWiz as the primary encoder on systems where a PS/2 port exists, as it takes this out of the equation. 

There are a lot of folks out there using only a joypad based controller on their systems, so it's not a big issue.  It's just something you should be aware of.

[Kupoppo]

Oddly enough, it's exactly that reason but on the opposite side of the spectrum which makes me prefer joypads.  In order to keep immersability maximized I'm developing my own custom frontend to act as a game selection interface.  Command line executions occur behind the scenes and launch the appropriate program.  This way I can prevent the user from accessing menus, and keep immersion high by displaying games across multiple platforms with a single uniform UI.  There will be no save states and cheat codes on my machine 

While I know I can re-map any keys and control what they can and can't access, it just seems cleaner to me to not give them access to begin with.  I can hardcode a few functions to trigger off of keys if I have to, but mostly I'm planning on wrapping all that functionality inside the custom front-end software

[RandyT]

Front ends with this functionality are in short supply it seems.  Be good to have another with fully integrates joypad support!