OpenJamma board - interest?

[shanghaiguide]

I've been silently working on making an open sourced JAMMA board for a little while now.
My intention is to make something open sourced that can plug directly into JAMMA hardware, but also has USB and VGA and other connections for those unfortunate enough not to have a nice arcade setup (what on this forum?  nah...).

While I was looking originally at MIPS originally, I intend to use an ARM based CPU now.  I already have prototyped the hardware using a dev board, and it works well enough for me to be happy.  As it will be open source *legit*, the board won't have rom's shipped with it, but I'll stick compiled versions of popular emulators + a front end on there, plus setup a github repo so others can assist / improve.
(Unless I can find a way to licence roms, in which case it will have some).

My question is this - any interest?

Essentially it will be like the Chinese XX in 1 boards, *but* with better emulation, a lot more open, plus better emulation, oh, and better emulation 
Basically made by an enthusiast for enthusiasts..

Open Hardware (to the extent where thats possible)
Target will be roughly mid year for board shipping if everything goes according to plan.


So...

What features are must haves for people?

My current hardware feature set target is:

VGA
HDMI
Video out (CVBS)
USB
JAMMA
RGB OUT (via JAMMA)
SD Card (up to 32g)
NAND flash 4G for OS + Emulators + front end.


Software -
Decent emulation (not everything will be possible but most 80/90's should be fine. 
I'll definitely try to get emulation better than the slapdash chinese clone it works, ship it style we're so used to)!

...and lastly - Its going to be called OpenJAMMA


Comments, criticism, thoughts ?

[matsadona]

Don’t take it personally, but to start with as the obvious criticism is that there have been similar posts before with similar ideas. And so far they have resulted in nothing. So please understand that the general opinion might be skepticism.

Besides from that I would love that kind of hardware, if the price is reasonable. Sure a MAME computer would do the same thing, but I want a more plugnplay system that you don’t have to be a Windows/Linux expert to configure.

A little bit curious about the different video outputs. How will you manage that? Would it require a lot of manual configurations to get native resolutions at the RGB output etc?

Support for analog and optic inputs?
Any outputs (lamps, ff, solenoids)?

[BobA]

Sounds like you have a good start.  If it is working you have made it alot further than others who have tried.  Very interested in anything that helps make things more plug and play.  Will be watching your project closely.  Best of luck! 

[shanghaiguide]

Yay, a comment 
Was thinking that people were just ignoring this 

As a background - I do have experience in taking things from concept to market.
I also have the relevant experience in both software and hardware sides to do this, although for some of this i'll obviously hire other people.
Those that know me, know that when I say i'll do something I will do it, damn the naysayers

I actually reverse engineered an off the shelf jamma board last year with the intent of redoing the software, but the cpu wasn't really up to the task.
The newer arm chipsets appearing now are up to the task, and I think its the right time for something done right.

I am based in China too, so thats good for a lot of reasons - pcb and hardware is fairly easy to do here.

I have been toying over the idea for well over a year now, and my staff are well aware of whats coming
I've already registered domains, and staff are busy on logo design.
I already have running protypes (on dev hardware) + gpio -> jamma so the concept seems like its feasible.

The chipset I'm using supports HDMI, VGA, and CVBS, the GPIO's will mostly be in use for the JAMMA inputs, but I do have some spare for other things.
Can also do LVDS, but not so keen on that initially.

Different video outputs are fairly straightforward, although HDMI is a bit of a pain resolution wise.  I'll sort that out though.
There are PWM outputs on the SoC for things like lamps etc, but I was just planning on doing basic JAMMA board initially + USB/VGA for the less well endowed, rather than try be all encompassing.

I'm aiming at around $80 for end product - with something thats jamma plug n play, and will be low power (somewhere in the < 5w range).
Haven't really thought about analog inputs - can do, but will have to see if thats a large feature request.

Thank you for being the first to reply!

[DeLuSioNal29]

Just send you a PM.  I think this is a great idea.  Long overdue IMHO.

 

D

[tris_d]

I already have prototyped the hardware using a dev board, and it works well enough for me to be happy. 

What hardware it is?

As it will be open source *legit*, the board won't have rom's shipped with it, but I'll stick compiled versions of popular emulators + a front end on there, plus setup a github repo so others can assist / improve.

Which ones have you tried?

Essentially it will be like the Chinese XX in 1 boards, *but* with better emulation, a lot more open, plus better emulation, oh, and better emulation 

What's better, for example?

[Nephasth]

If you need a beta tester... I'm your man.

[CraftyMech]

Definitely an interesting project.

My first thoughts would be to choose the emulator versions carefully to ensure good compatibility with the romsets that are most common. For instance, using an older version of Mame like the XX-in-1 boards do, would be problematic for most users with romsets for the more recent releases of Mame.

On that same topic, providing a means for the user to flash the firmware with regular updates from your end would be a huge plus. It is going to be tough to put together an broad emulation pack that works wonderfully right out of the gate, so providing an easy upgrade path (USB to serial programming cable for instance) as part of the hardware package will be important.

Looking forward to future updates.

[j2obin]

Take my money! 

Actually though what I want is a xx in one similar board that has decent emulation including sound and music for Gyruss.  I haven't seen this done well yet in a low cost board.  I would love to see an xx in 1 with perfect emulation over something that tries to support everything but with poor emulation or performance.

[yotsuya]

I'd be down for one... or two...

But please, please, PLEASE make the front end less cheesy/bad than the other XX-in-1 boards out there. If there was some way to flash and import custom graphics for the FE, I'd buy three!

[sharpfork]

Very interesting idea.

I'd reconsider Mipps and aligning with this open project and its userbase:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gcw/gcw-zero-open-source-gaming-handheld

Are you able to manage such a wide range of video outputs on the same inexpensive PCB?  Would it make sense to have a JAMMA version then a HDMI version as a derivative board or are the video parts cheap enough that it doesn't matter?

SD Card (up to 64Gb)

[shanghaiguide]

The GCW runs on the chipset I thought of using originally.  In fact I had stuff *running* on a jamma board with that exact chipset (JZ4755) last year.  You can check the forums here for some history on that actually, as I did post a good few posts on that before I stopped posting due to one particular person spamming those posts who got subsequently got banned.

I do know that chipset fairly well, as I did spend a few months looking at it.
Its not quite as good as the one I'm going to use (although its fairly good for purpose).

The ARM SoC i'm using has a lot more bells/whistles, and is the same price point, so no point going for the MIPS one imho.

PCB will have all those outputs, as its pretty much built into the SoC, and connectors are cheap.
I'll also have ethernet too (which I forgot to mention)

SDXC support - will look at.  (>32G SD is SDXC.)
Unfortunately its covered by patents - ExFAT is microsoft encumbered, so while hardware wise should be ok, software wise might be issue's.
Should be ok tentatively (I need to look closely at it).

[Franco B]

I would be interested in a couple for sure 

[Unstupid]

U show me a jamma board that has a sd card slot, that I can stick a card in that has the entire neo-geo romset, that has VGA and stereo output and ill be interested.  Also if you can make it emulate scan lines that would be a bonus!  A Customizable front end would be a double bonus!

[Franco B]

I posted a link to this thread and we've been discussing it a little [here]

One good suggestion that was made would be to add a Hirose DF1BZ-34DP-2.5DS connector that's used as the kick connector on CPS2/3 boards. Buttons 4-6 could then be connected to this although I would also suggest supporting five buttons from the JAMMA edge.

The same connector is also used on 4P CPS2 boards for the controls for players 3 and 4. I thought if you added the connector for inputs 4-6 then it might be a good idea (if possible) if you/we could also be able to re-map/program the inputs and use it as a 4P connector for cabinets with three or four players.

[tris_d]

I do know that chipset fairly well, as I did spend a few months looking at it.
Its not quite as good as the one I'm going to use (although its fairly good for purpose).

So what exactly are you using?

The ARM SoC i'm using has a lot more bells/whistles, and is the same price point, so no point going for the MIPS one imho.

What bells and whistles? You didn't even mention basic specs, like what CPU, what GPU, or how much RAM.

Can you make a video of few games showing FPS counter so we can hear and see just how good it really is?

As it will be open source *legit*, the board won't have rom's shipped with it, but I'll stick compiled versions of popular emulators + a front end on there, plus setup a github repo so others can assist / improve.

What popular emulators, is there any other beside MAME4all?

[emphatic]

This is very interesting. Would this be suitable for budding game programmers as well?

[shanghaiguide]

@Emphatic -
If you can do SDL based stuff, then sure.

Its going to be a linux os - currently I'm running Kernel 3.4 / Debian 7,  but thats flexible.  The idea is that its open hardware, open software.  Not you get what you get, and tough.
The board will be ready to run in an Arcade Machine JAMMA setup, but also usable for others who want to play.  Again, open source, open hardware..

I'm not trying to be all things to all people, but I'm trying to ship something that I would buy myself as opposed to a closed source board that may or may not suit my needs, and can't really be changed.  I also understand that some people don't really care, they just want something that can be plugged in and just work.  It will do that also.
(Although, you'll need to supply your _own_ games on SD). 

To address some of tris_d's questions:

It will be based off a single core  Cortex-A8 cpu for the initial run, although we do have the option for dualcore later (as there is a dual core pin compatible chip available).
RAM will be 1G
Flash 4G for OS / Emulators
SD card for user space stuff (eg roms).

You'll be able to flash it with other OS's if you want, and it will have ethernet so you can update software by pressing a button.
You'll also have usb, so you can use wifi if you need to.

I'll start making some details for the site soon ( http://www.openjamma.org )

--

I've thought about 4 player adaptors - doable, but i need to see how much need there is.

I know that some people will be negative, what I'm looking for is some sort of overall feature set that we'll design the PCB to have.
Currently I know what I personally want, but I need to have a better idea of what YOU want.

If its doable, it will be done.

Lawrence / http://www.openjamma.org (hopefully Saint is ok with me sticking a link there )

[sharpfork]

For your first release I'd consider keeping your features simple: a "legit"  XX in 1 board *but* with better emulation. I'd match the features of the xx boards and maybe add 1/8" stereo out for computer speakers.  You have a bunch of hardware and software to manage with just that as a starting point.  If you overload the first go with too many features, you might never finish it.  Is this something you are working on solo?

[Malenko]

agree, and I'd be happy to beta test, I have an array of machines, most JAMMA but some a little different (like MK2 and KI1 having the -5V, and a Galaga wired for JAMMA, and a Dynamo that has a PS that wont go above 4.9 V on the +5 lol)

I like the idea and it sounds like this project is rooted in reality instead of fantasy like some other similar projects.

[shanghaiguide]

If it was only me, this would be a pipedream!

I'm the boss though, and I have a bunch of minions er... minion'ing for me.
While I actually could do it all in-house, I'll be shipping some stuff to other people to do (eg the PCB design once I finalize hardware), and other bits and bobs.

I'm based in China, and speak Chinese, so thats a good plus.  I also have staff that put up with my often crazy idea's, and help that come to fruition.
Its not the first crazy idea I've had and gone through with either

I already have some interest from people regarding distribution, so thats also a good indicator that it will go forward (although I'm pretty much full speed ahead, damn the torpedo's)
I'm using my own money to do this, and am misusing staff to do various things related to this as we go forward. 
They're all pretty excited though, as this is another fun thing vs the usual business related stuff we do.

They're also used to me doing arcade stuff - we made and shipped a bunch of machines last year for a client in Cape Town, South Africa, where I shall be later on this year assuming i get a break!

Lawrence.

[yotsuya]

 

[Franco B]

If you don't go with a 3/4P connector I would at least make sure it supports 6 buttons for players 1 and 2. If you didn't want to use one of the Hirose connectors you could use something like a JST NH header. CPS1 in fact uses a 10 pin JST NH header and the kick pin out could be wired to that.

However, the Hirose CPS2 connector is probably the most widely used kick harness connector though so it would make sense to use one of those, IMO. If you did use the Hirose connector then it would also be easier to implement P3/P4 

There are some CPS2 kick and P3/P4 pinouts [here] and some Hirose connector details [here] if it helps.

[emphatic]

+1 for a stereo/dual mono line level output.

As it will be running Linux, will this mean that GroovyMAME (based on ArchLinux) can be ported to this platform? Also, Yo-Yo games are apparently working on a Linux version of GameMaker: http://www.yoyogames.com/news/65 which would be awesome to have supported.

[sharpfork]

Can you make a video of few games showing FPS counter so we can hear and see just how good it really is?

I'd like to see this and a general overview of the project status on video.  I've seen too many projects come and go to let myself get too excited about this.

[paigeoliver]

How will the emulation be better when Mame is terrible on ARM processors compared to X86 ones?

[404]

shanghaiguide

Thought you had all but disappeared here. I continued tinkering and collecting more igenic stuff following up on retrosticks and jepalza's dingux hack. Did you ever manage to do anything with the igenic Jamma board?  I tried finding one but couldn't get a hold of one.

Anyway, if you do need a tester for the product, I'd be more than happy to lend a hand. As i mentioned all those months back, I too have some embedded hardware experience.

[shanghaiguide]

@404 - fyi - retrosticks is me too.

Yes, I managed, but its not as fast as I would have liked on the 4755.


I'm not sure why all of you keep going, meh, M is terrible on ARM.
I've never even said the M word, and its not actually something I'd use anyway.  While I admire M...E its not exactly gone in the right direction of recent years.  I was more a fan of the lean mean machine it used to be.

[404]

@404 - fyi - retrosticks is me too.

I know, I visited often during my own igenic soc tinkering.

Yes, I managed, but its not as fast as I would have liked on the 4755.

what a shame, that board looked very promising.

I'm not sure why all of you keep going, meh, M is terrible on ARM.
I've never even said the M word, and its not actually something I'd use anyway.  While I admire M...E its not exactly gone in the right direction of recent years.  I was more a fan of the lean mean machine it used to be.

well that may be a hurdle for some. Most people would want to use this for mame.  in the very least though, since you brought up SDL then advancemame should run with little issues. since you also brought up sdl, lemon launcher is generally used in some of the nix based xxxin1 arm boards. Might be something to consider when looking for a front end to use.

[Xiaou2]

Maybe I skipped over it... but skimming,  I saw no mention of support for Trackballs, Spinners, Steering Wheels, Pedals, Shifters, LCD 3d Glasses,  ...Nor dual Time Crisis Recoil guns.

 If thats so, then why bother?   Many of the biggest name, and best classics, have analog controls...

 Tempest, Arkanoid, Centipede, Out Run, Mad Planets, Supersprint, Race Drivin, Sinistar, Kick, Major Havok, Pole Position, Marble Madness, Star Trek, Star Wars, Daytona USA, Continental Circus 3D, Spy Hunter, Crystal Castles, TX-1, Paperboy, Return of the Jedi, Super Hangon, Afterburner II, Stun Runner, Rampart, Shuuz, Atari XO football, Discs of Tron, Enduro Racer, Golder Tee, Any Bowling games, any driving games, SanFranciso Rush, Tac Scan, Terminator 2, Thunderblade, Point Blanc, Time Crisis, Area 51, and over 1000 more.


 Support for Mad Planets alone would be worth it.  But having actual hardware output support for things like Force Feedback to an outrun shaker motor,  2 way gear shifter and lights for Spy Hunter,  and 3d LCD glasses support for Continental Circus 3D (the effect is jaw dropping),  would make me, and plenty of other pour out our bank accounts.

 While money is always tight, we always find ways to get what we want.  Especially if its things that we currently do not have in Mame... like actual  Arcade shifter support, 3d support, easy hardware force feedback support..etc...

 And even at $300, would be well worth the quality.

 
 As for 32gb card storage, to me, thats not enough either.  Maybe at least add one slot with 64gb microsd... and one input for an actual hard drive.   Ability to run laserdiscs, and multiple emulators is a plus. (especially since sega master system also has 3d LCD games.  I believe Famicon does too.. but probably not as good as Segas offerings).   Mames set alone is way over that... and there was no mention of Jukebox support.. which also would be nice... as well as require more space.   I suppose network cable could provide remote storage access.. but not everyone wants to configure that, nor has the cables running to the spot.

 Also, is it mere Stereo output only?  Because many games support more than 3 speakers.  Games like TX-1 had speakers in front left and right, seat, and the rear.  Gave true surround sound ability.  Even Segas Turbo has 3 speakers... and thats way back in the 80s.   Sound quality is important to me as well.  Ive gotten very spoiled with a good set of headphones.. and have trouble dealing with horrible cheap onboard sound that is generally on generic motherboards.  My Soundblaster Audigy, which is ages old... destroys many of the brand new generic sound chips out there... even besting my new Samsung Phones quality (sadly).

 Finally, I think you should Nix composite out.  You cant even find a tv that used it... and the quality it puts out is horrible.  At minimum, svideo...  But Id rather see Component support.  HDMI is interesting, and may be needed once all the older component tvs die... but Id personally use Component out on my older tvs - which is closest to RGB, or if my Arcade monitors hold out... straight RGB.  I, nor most people here, can stand Composite. Svideo quality is barely tolerated.

 Edit: read some more...

 Re the memory issue... Either add two 32gb sd card slots.. or maybe better...  a usb port, in which you could plug in whatever you wanted.  Such as a usb hub, card readers, or usb hard drives?  Not sure if that would be a loophole or not?

[Nephasth]

Finally, I think you should Nix composite out.  You cant even find a tv that used it...

Where the hell do you live? There's 5 TVs in my house that have a composite input.

[sharpfork]

I pretend my TV's in my house don't have composite, does that count? 

As far as having all sorts of features for inputs, I would think that something like that could be added via a secondary board connected with headers.  It could be planned for and be an upgrade option.  I can think of all sorts of upgrade boards that could be added.

[Malenko]

Finally, I think you should Nix composite out.  You cant even find a tv that used it...

Where the hell do you live? There's 5 TVs in my house that have a composite input.

NO! *slap*

DO

NOT

FEED

THE

TROLL!


He listed Atari XO football as some sort of must play game, if that's not trolling I have no idea what is.

[Nephasth]

 

[shanghaiguide]

Lets try stick to the topic guys -

Suggestions, vs ....


Xiaou2 - not feasible for the most part.
Analog can be done though, but maybe in a rev2 product, or as a daughterboard.

Audio will be stereo, although jamma out will be mono, as thats the jamma standard.
There will be a *line out* on the board (so yes, supply your own amplifier).

[Xiaou2]

Actually, I never would have thought XO would be worth playing, till I got a collector had me give it a whirl.  Using the 4" diameter trackballs to run, was fun.. and a real workout to boot.

[emphatic]

Oh, and for the frontend, please make it somewhat easy to create skins/themes for. If the resources are just a couple of .png files for example, like in AdvanceMenu. I'd love to be able to skin it, and I'm sure there will be many more people interested in doing that too.

[eldiau]

shanghaiguide this is great news!  I'm myself a linux programmer and I'd LOVE to have such a board to play with!

It's quite a dream to have an ARM board with an open loader so we can place our own custom linux with the emulators and the frontends we want!

Moreover, it's going to be nice small and powerful linux computer with easy to connect and use digital input lines on an edge connector I can see many other uses besides arcade.

I registered your site and I'll be waiting for updates!

[Brian74]

I would be sooo interested in one or two. I have empty cabs to fill!!

[tris_d]

How will the emulation be better when Mame is terrible on ARM processors compared to X86 ones?

That's like saying all blondes are stupid, or that MIPS is terrible for MAME just because it sucks on PS2 or PSP. CPU architecture is not important, CPU is either fast enough or not. Generally speaking it's GPU and OS (drivers) which are really important. But I do agree with your question, just instead generalizing the case to "ARM CPU" it's really about combination of all the hardware and software components on a specific ARM based boards, like 60-in-1, GP2X, RaspberryPi, or Android devices.

For games those ARM boards can run at full speed emulation is not worse than compared to x86. Even 60-in-1, which is the most underpowered of all, does as good if not better job for those particular 60 games than you could make with comparable PC setup, apart from audio that is, but that's not fault of CPU or ARM architecture. So I'd say more specific and thus better question would be: can this thing do better than, say GP2X, and can we see some videos of it