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Author Topic: Choosing the right joystick...So many options  (Read 5862 times)

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Dekieon

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Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« on: January 26, 2013, 09:36:24 pm »
I am trying to find the right joysticks to purchase and feel like i am drowning in choices. I know what I want, but can't find what I want.

First off, what are the better sticks available for my mame machine? Quality, feel, etc.

What I was looking at was Happ Ultimate, was gonna buy 3 (two 8 way, and one 4way), however the blue seems to be darker then the T-molding I want to get which is 3/4" Light Blue T-Molding.

Are these joysticks any good? can I replace the tops with a ball that will match my t-molding?

Are there better joysticks then the ones I was looking at?

I would like good sticks, that all look the same, and  can match my t-molding. Additionally I would like the wire connectors to be like those the Ultimate has, not the kind with the 5 pins all together like this.

I was also looking at Nui IL/Happ RGB Shaft Kit to put into the joysticks and make it light a light blue if i can't find the proper colour solid ball top.

Also I would like to know more about mounting plates. Do I need one? I am going to be making my control panel form 3/4" plywood.

Any help would be appreciated on this.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 09:48:06 pm by Dekieon »

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 09:47:10 pm »
sorry..I double posted

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 09:54:53 pm »
Just so you know, Happ "Ultimate" is just a name, not a qualitative descriptor.   :lol

The big question is what types of games do you prefer?

Fighters, SHMUPS, old-school classics, etc. all play different with different sticks.


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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 09:59:56 pm »
Happ Ultimates and Happ Competitions are regarded as generally good all around joysticks.  I believe you can replace the bat-top and shafts to your liking,  but it's going to be difficult to color match your joysticks to your T-molding,  if anything you really should be doing it the other way around.  Joysticks come in a very finite selection of colors,  and you're going to be hard pressed to find a different shade of blue.

What most sites offer is the same thing you're looking at there.

Better is a pretty subjective term,  and it depends heavily on what you want to do.  Most people would tell you to get one of the Ms.Pac Man reunion 4-ways or some other dedicated 4-way,  as the Happ Ultimate really wasn't designed as a 4-way stick in comparison.  You may also want to look into the Ultimarc Servo-stick,  it could save you the cost of a joystick,  and the GroovyGameGear.com 4-ways are also pretty well respected.

For dedicated fighters,  many people seem to swear by the Sanwa's.  For gameplay invovling the old analogue and 49-way games,  the Ultrastick 360 is probably the best bet.  Then there's flightsticks,  which is a completely different matter.

Mounting them is up to you,  you can do it from the top using carriage bolts that will show,  or from underneath using a mounting kit offered by many vendors. 

May I ask why you've chosen 3/4" plywood?  Finding a straight piece may not be easy,  and painting it or applying graphics will require a large amount of sanding to prepare it.  Many control panels are made of particle board, MDO, or MDF at this point,  as both of those are significantly easier to work with and are rarely warped.  I honestly wouldn't touch plywood for a control panel myself,  I'd personally use MDO or MDF.

Dekieon

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 10:38:22 pm »
Well as far as the games I will be playing...it will be everything from Asteroids to Zaxxon, I have created a list of about 50 games I plan at having in the cab. Some examples are street fighter 2, gauntlet, pac man, bagman, frogger, excite bike, karate champ, double dragon, buster bros, etc. Quite a wide variety.

The reason I was gonna use 3/4" plywood, was because it is very strong, and much lighter then MDF. I thought about  particle board, but figured routering the grove for the T-Molding would be a problem.

I would also like to add that I would like to be able to remove the microswitches at some point to replace with leaf switchs
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 11:15:56 pm by Dekieon »

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 12:32:04 am »
You may want to look at MDO,  it's plywood with a layer of MDF on top of it,  much much easier to work with and takes paint/art easily,  and easily takes the T-molding.

You may also want to look at some other sites than Happ,  you can purchase Happ Ultimates or Competitions with the microswitches already on them. 

You may also want to seriously consider at least 1 servo stick,  IIRC Karate Champ is a double 4-way game,  it's not going to play well with 8-ways.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2013, 10:11:14 am »
After putting some thought into it, I am guessing I want the main 8way sticks choosen for the fighting games like Mortal Kombat, and Street Fighter.
What about the Happ perfect 360? I have read some good things about these, but are a bit pricy. Would they be good for fighting games like street fighter and MK? CAn i pull out the shaft and replace it with somthing else?

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 10:25:49 am »
The answer you seek really does lie in the games that you want to play. For my money, if I had to have a single cab with only one choice of stick to play a wide variety of games, I would choose Wico 8-way leafs. But, if I had a couple of games that were really important to me (like, say, Donkey Kong), I would look into options better suited to those games.

I used Ultimates on my first build as a little Cheffo. They are very sloppy sticks, I hate them and I am not alone:

Threads here talking about Happ Ultimates

I like plywood, *especially* for panels. I've never seen warping as an issue. The plywood Midway, Nintendo and Williams cabs in my basement have held up pretty damned well. Big showcase cabs are built with plywood. Those pinball guys ... they're just CRAZY because all of their cabinets and playfields must be warping all over the place.   :P

Plywood good. Happ Ultimate bad.

Answer to your original question depends on what games are important to you.
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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 02:36:57 pm »
IMHO, Happ Super's make a good, all-around inexpensive joystick.

However, for 4-way games (i.e. Pacman), they play better with a dedicated 4-way stick.

For fighting games specifically, however, I'd look at Sanwa JLF's.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 08:23:30 pm »
Hmmm, I keep reading the JLF's are great for fighting games. I think I might get a couple of those from ParadiseArcade. Along with the translucent ball tops to light up.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 09:38:58 pm »
If you are going cheap then you can't go wrong with Supers. They have a perfect balance between primary directions and diagonals (something not all sticks can claim) and they have the round zone of motion that many classic games are going to want. I have owned A LOT of arcade games and I have never had a machine with supers on it and felt the need to swap out the sticks. I can't say the same about ultimates or competitions.

IMHO, Happ Super's make a good, all-around inexpensive joystick.

However, for 4-way games (i.e. Pacman), they play better with a dedicated 4-way stick.

For fighting games specifically, however, I'd look at Sanwa JLF's.
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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 09:47:43 pm »
Another vote for the Super here! Although for classic 4-ways I like my balltop J-stick. If you don't mind the clicks.
Now witness the power of this FULLY OPERATIONAL Mame machine!

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 09:56:06 pm »
If you are going cheap then you can't go wrong with Supers. They have a perfect balance between primary directions and diagonals (something not all sticks can claim) and they have the round zone of motion that many classic games are going to want. I have owned A LOT of arcade games and I have never had a machine with supers on it and felt the need to swap out the sticks. I can't say the same about ultimates or competitions.

For those looking to use the more traditional (I.e. not Japanese-style) arcade sticks,  I agree with this statement.  They also have the blade-style micros, which means those zones can be tweaked just the way the player wants.  They used to be the "go to" sticks, but seem to have fallen out of favor as of late.  Probably due to all the attention to the Japanese styles, and not much discussion lately about the Supers.

To all the fighting game enthusiasts:  If you want the Competition-style stick, go for the Supers instead.  It's a better fit.  But for "all around" play, including 4-way games (if you really want to play those on an 8-way), the Competitions will probably serve you better, unless you do some switch tweaking on the Super.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 12:57:32 pm »
I used to manage a Namco owned arcade for 3yrs.   In that time, I found that:

1)  Happs Ultimates were highly flawed.   They shredded up the plastic spacer like a cheese grater, leaving a pile
of white plastics in the cabinet... and causing the stick to have issues only a few months time.  They also had too much
slop... and If memory serves correct, they have a boxy restriction, which was bad for smooth rolling transitions.

2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent to the point where it made diagonals
inaccurate.  Adjusting the leafs usually just made things worse.  The problem with those style of leafs, is that they use a
very thin and flimsy 'tin like' metal.  It does not maintain its shape well.   But worse, is that once you bend the lever too much,
it breaks the switches functionality...Often popping right out of the switch itself.   I love classics, but I also love fighters too,
and I can tell you that Id never play a fighter on a Super ever again.  The stiff-moving stick, is way too fatiguing and slow..
and those micro-leafs, are not precise nor durable enough.

3)  Comps Rule.  They are fluid, with a circular outer path,  and easy to move, so less fatigue than joys like the supers. 
They use standard micros, and are precise in all directions.  They are durable... lasting many years before the spacers had
to be flipped over... and no problems with hitting accurate diagonals.    They worked good in almost any game that I,
or others, put them into.  Generally, all fighters after a certain year, used them.  And the ones that didnt. were often swapped
out with comps anyways.  However, note that Classics play much better with Leafswitch sticks and buttons.  And 4way
games, will not be anywhere near as good, without a real physically restricted (diamond path) 4way.

 4)  Standard joysticks do not work well for true 4 way games.  While you can make them work if your really precise... its still
often not good enough.  A true 4 way, has a diagonal outside restricted pathway.  This allows faster changes from one
direction to another, as you travel a shorter distance.  Games like MS Pacman with speedup hack, are nearly impossible
without a real 4way.

 5)  Leaf Buttons are the Bomb for rapidfire classic games, like Asteroids Deluxe, Track n Field, Galaga, etc.  You can bounce
the button lightly, barely making the contacts activate, rather than pressing the button fully down.  Microswitch buttons
have a greater initial tension that exists right before activation. That extra tension eventually fatigues you, if your playing
a game which requires a constantly fast fire pattern.  Its also nearly impossible to stop right at activation.. and you slam
the button fully down, making a hard impact into the button end. The collision energy travels into you, also causing fatigue.
On slow fire games, fatigue isnt really that noticeable, because theres less of it, and much more time to recover.

 6)  Wico Leaf Joysticks:  Are probably the best for many of the older classic games.  Having the same spring metal
leaf switches, they activate easily and can respond much faster than micros. The stick also uses a rubber grommet for
centering the stick in a pivot like manor.  Typical modern joysticks use springs to center them.  Initially, the Wicos feel a little
stiff or muddy, but theres a magic about them, once you get playing.  The distances to activation are much less than
most microswitch joys... which means much faster response times. Theres also less of a collision if you hit the outiside edge,
as the grommet absorbs most of it.  The pivot point also feels better, as you are directly centered. Where as many
Micro-Sticks have a little slide effect, that tosses the pivot to the sides.

 Leafsticks work great on games like Robotron (which really does not play well at all with anything else)... where you often
are rolling the sticks along the outside edge in a circular path. The faster response times are also really needed on this game... as typical micro-sticks take too much time traveling from left to right, or up to down.  However, Wicos are not that good in games which require super precision with diagonals, like fighting games.  The extra travel on a micro-stick, actually
helps a player by giving them time to adjust their vector to the precise diagonal point... without hitting another direction
on-accident.

 The biggest downside to any leaf stick or button, is that they can eventually get out of whack.  You may have to bend them
back into place as the metal starts to lose some of its spring.  You also have to clean the small contact discs often, as they
get dirty, and eventually wouldnt make a reliable electrical connection.

 * Note:   That Micro-Leafs are far different from Actual Leafswitches.   Microleafs do not use spring-steel, and they only
use the metal extension for leverage and helping to keep the activation point from wearing down.  Real Leaf switches,
have blades made of spring steel, which snap right back into place once you release their tension.  They can be bent with
needle-nose pliers, and adjusted for near zero distance to activation (a hair-trigger) ,and they will stay in that position for
some time without falling back into the original position.


 Japanese Sticks:  Ive only bought one, and have not yet hooked it up.  They can have a much shorter throw than the
typical happs stick.  Some prefer this for quicker reactions... however, it could lead to accidental presses, if you are not
accustomed to being so precise.  It may feel too restrictive and 'tight' for some people.   They do have a spherical
center pivot however, unlike the typical happs micro-sticks.  The construction is similar to the Monroe Leaf sticks.


 Monro Leaf sticks:  were very different from Wico leafs.  They use a ball & socket pivot point.  Used in games like
Gyruss, and I believe Time Pilot... where constant outside-circles were dominant in the gameplay.  Downside to these
sticks, is that they often froze up, due to the ball rusting to the socket.. as both were made of metal.


 Optical, Magnetic, and other modern tweaked offerings:

   Im out of time to discuss these.  Each one has its positives, as well as negatives.  You can figure them out by
comparing the reviews,  the mechanics, and your budget.   Some claim to work well in all games... but you often
have to buy distance restriction adapters anyways... and even then, may not feel and play as good as, for example,
a real diamond restricted stick.   Its typical with anything that tries to do too much, that something is compromised. 
Its up to you if you can accept those compromises.


 In conclusion, If I was restricted on a single stick, it would probably be the comps, because I like older and modern games,
equally.  However, personally, Id rather put in multiple controllers than lose original functionality and control.  You can for
example, put two sticks about 2" apart vertically, with about 4" distance horizontally.  (making a diagonal, with the
lower stick on the bottom right, and the upper stick to the top left)  And grab and use either stick with ease.
(using less horizontal space, and also not having to reach too deep into a panel... nor having to rest your arms over
any buttons or other controls)


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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 04:56:22 pm »
1)  Happs Ultimates were highly flawed.

On this I will agree.  They were the very first sticks I used in a MAME based panel, 15 years ago, and I kept wondering why I was doing so poorly on games I used to play well.  Switched to Supers, and it was a night and day difference.

Quote
2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent to the point where it made diagonals
inaccurate.  Adjusting the leafs usually just made things worse.  The problem with those style of leafs, is that they use a
very thin and flimsy 'tin like' metal.  It does not maintain its shape well.   But worse, is that once you bend the lever too much,
it breaks the switches functionality...Often popping right out of the switch itself.   I love classics, but I also love fighters too,
and I can tell you that Id never play a fighter on a Super ever again.  The stiff-moving stick, is way too fatiguing and slow..
and those micro-leafs, are not precise nor durable enough.

First off, it should probably made clear that you aren't talking about the "Micro-Leaf" switches we offer for pushbuttons.  What you seem to have had is an issue with whatever switches were installed on those, rather than the stick itself.  The switches which ship with the Supers currently do not have flimsy metal parts, nor is it even possible to exert any force on  the blades which would cause them to bend.  Perhaps, on a severely worn stick subjected to constant abuse in an arcade, the physical stop was no longer doing it's job.  This means the stick should have been replaced, not just the switches.

Everyone seems to like the Competition sticks, with one glaring exception:  those who primarily play fighters.  I've had more than handful of people tell me the comps were defective out of the thousands we have shipped over the years.  The common complaint is "the diagonals don't work reliably".  So when instructed to check in diagnostic panel of their OS, sure enough, the diagonals work fine.  They simply expected the Competition stick to be more sensitive in the diagonals than it is.  And when asked what type of games they play, it was "fighting games", every time, and without exception.  Not being overly sensitive in diagonals is a selling point for all-around gameplay, especially when that same stick might be used on 4-way, as well as 8-way games.  But it drives fight game fans insane.  The Supers are much better about engaging the diagonals as easily as the primary directions, solely due to those switches you are complaining about.   This is simple geometry.  The shortest distance is a straight line to switch actuation.  With a square actuator, such as those on the Competitions, you must move further at an angle to actuate the switch.  The round actuator, with bladed switches, gets there faster.  There's really nothing more to it than that.

The fact is, a lot of folks like the style of stick which is common to both the Supers and the Competitions.  It's what they were used to playing with in the gamerooms.  There's really only those two choices in that style of stick, and fighters will, without a doubt, be better off with a Super.

RandyT

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 05:18:16 pm »
I'm surprised no one's mentioned iL yet.  If you want an American style stick, I'd go with the iL Eurojoystick (yes, the name sounds odd, bear with me).  iL used to be partnered with Happ at some point, so their sticks are very similar.  Happ now outsources production to China, so quality is not quite as good.  The Eurojoystick is kind of a higher quality Happ Competition.

After putting some thought into it, I am guessing I want the main 8way sticks choosen for the fighting games like Mortal Kombat, and Street Fighter.

IMHO, if you're serious about Street Fighter and other 2d fighting games, you really need a JLF.  They are smoother and more accurate than American sticks, due to a hemispherical pivot, unlevered microswitches, and tighter build quality.  At stock, they have a fairly long engage and throw, and do not have the short-throw-accidental-input problem described above.  A JLF is by far the best stick for fighters (again, IMHO).

(engage = distance the stick must be moved to actuate the microswitch and input a direction)
(throw = distance the stick can be moved until it hits the restrictor and can't be moved any further)

For most other genres besides fighters, the JLF's long engage/throw is undesirable, especially shmups (flying/space shooters).  I made a mod that will reduce its engage and throw, while still maintaining smoothness and accuracy, making it possibly the best shmup stick, and a fantastic all-around 8-way stick.  A link is in my signature.  I don't think the shortened engage/throw is bad for fighters.  It just takes a round or two to get used to it and avoid any accidental inputs.

The main complaint of newcomers to Japanese sticks is that they feel "loose and cheap."  The perception of looseness is largely due to being accustomed to overstiff American-style sticks, but they do have a pretty low spring tension, especially the JLF.  I use a slightly increased tension, simply by inserting two small nylon washers (this step is shown with my mod, and can be done on its own).  You can also use other springs for more tension.  As for cheapness, JLF's actually have about the highest build quality.

If you want to know what's available, this should be mandatory reading:

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands.html#JOYSTICK_MODELS

Really, the whole site should be read "cover to cover."  Also search for Kowal's joystick ratings.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 07:14:15 pm by rCadeGaming »

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 05:32:09 pm »
I have not seen it mentioned yet, but if you want to play Ikari Warriors or Guerrilla War or Heavy Barrel, etc. you will want an 8way rotary joystick.

I have two rotaries in my cab because that genre of games allows for simultaneous 2 player action.

Mine are old take-out bought used from eBay a decade ago.   They use micro switches.  If the servostik came in a rotary version I'd be all over a pair of those.
  2-player upright dual trackball / dual 8-way rotary joysticks - built from scratch

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 05:38:48 pm »
2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent to the point where it made diagonals
inaccurate.  Adjusting the leafs usually just made things worse.  The problem with those style of leafs, is that they use a
very thin and flimsy 'tin like' metal.  It does not maintain its shape well.   But worse, is that once you bend the lever too much,
it breaks the switches functionality...Often popping right out of the switch itself.   I love classics, but I also love fighters too,
and I can tell you that Id never play a fighter on a Super ever again.  The stiff-moving stick, is way too fatiguing and slow..
and those micro-leafs, are not precise nor durable enough.

There is no physical way you can bend the switch levers (which are specifically NOT MicroLeafs and are definitely not flimsy) without breaking the housing  ... and I've seen a broken Nintendo Storngtanium(tm) stick. You are full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on that one.

I don't find them particularly stiff (indeed, the motion is smooth and light), but I can see how fighter fans (or people with weak wrists) might get tired.

EDIT: I see RandyT called you on it as well.
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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 06:59:17 pm »
Also search for Kowal's joystick ratings.

Is this the one?  (NOTE: Many pages there are in Polish, some have English translations.)

Another source is Retroblast's Joystick Roundup.

Retroblast's summary PDF is available here for easy side-by-side comparison.


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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 07:13:50 pm »
Yup, that's Kowal's site.  Google translate is needed sometimes, so Slagcoin is the more common recommendation.

I'm not impressed by Retroblast's stick reviews.  Totally biased to American-style parts; big lack of emphasis and measurements on accuracy and build quality too.  Note the Slagcoin chart's columns for pivot quality, neutral precision, and engage precision.

EDIT:  Link fixed above to point to the comparison chart.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 07:26:36 pm »
2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent to the point where it made diagonals
inaccurate.  Adjusting the leafs usually just made things worse.  The problem with those style of leafs, is that they use a
very thin and flimsy 'tin like' metal.  It does not maintain its shape well.   But worse, is that once you bend the lever too much,
it breaks the switches functionality...Often popping right out of the switch itself.   I love classics, but I also love fighters too,
and I can tell you that Id never play a fighter on a Super ever again.  The stiff-moving stick, is way too fatiguing and slow..
and those micro-leafs, are not precise nor durable enough.

I've used Supers for years and never found them fatiguing.  Are they the best stick for everything?  Certainly not.  But they are a decent all-arounder.

I can vouch for the bent leaf, though.  I did have that happen on one of the switches on one joystick.  Mind you, that was after years of use.  And given the relative cost of the Supers, I can't really complain about it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 07:33:14 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 07:33:57 pm »
2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent to the point where it made diagonals
inaccurate.  Adjusting the leafs usually just made things worse.  The problem with those style of leafs, is that they use a
very thin and flimsy 'tin like' metal.  It does not maintain its shape well.   But worse, is that once you bend the lever too much,
it breaks the switches functionality...Often popping right out of the switch itself.   I love classics, but I also love fighters too,
and I can tell you that Id never play a fighter on a Super ever again.  The stiff-moving stick, is way too fatiguing and slow..
and those micro-leafs, are not precise nor durable enough.

There is no physical way you can bend the switch levers (which are specifically NOT MicroLeafs and are definitely not flimsy) without breaking the housing  ... and I've seen a broken Nintendo Storngtanium(tm) stick. You are full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on that one.

I don't find them particularly stiff (indeed, the motion is smooth and light), but I can see how fighter fans (or people with weak wrists) might get tired.

EDIT: I see RandyT called you on it as well.

He's not full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  I've had it happen.  It was a relatively minor bend, but the bend was there.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 07:45:25 pm »
2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent to the point where it made diagonals
inaccurate.  Adjusting the leafs usually just made things worse.  The problem with those style of leafs, is that they use a
very thin and flimsy 'tin like' metal.  It does not maintain its shape well.   But worse, is that once you bend the lever too much,
it breaks the switches functionality...Often popping right out of the switch itself.   I love classics, but I also love fighters too,
and I can tell you that Id never play a fighter on a Super ever again.  The stiff-moving stick, is way too fatiguing and slow..
and those micro-leafs, are not precise nor durable enough.

There is no physical way you can bend the switch levers (which are specifically NOT MicroLeafs and are definitely not flimsy) without breaking the housing  ... and I've seen a broken Nintendo Storngtanium(tm) stick. You are full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on that one.

I don't find them particularly stiff (indeed, the motion is smooth and light), but I can see how fighter fans (or people with weak wrists) might get tired.

EDIT: I see RandyT called you on it as well.

He's not full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  I've had it happen.  It was a relatively minor bend, but the bend was there.

I can't see how -- I went downstairs and checked a cabinet with Supers before I posted my reply and there was no way I could foul up the switches.

Then, after reading your post, I figured that maybe the stick was being restricted by the thickness of the CP (3/4" panel), so I went back downstairs and checked another cabinet with Supers and a metal panel. Nope. Unless I break something else, there is no way that I am messing up those levers.

But then, they say that Nintendo sticks can't be broken and I've seen that that isn't true ...
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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2013, 07:54:56 pm »
I can't see how -- I went downstairs and checked a cabinet with Supers before I posted my reply and there was no way I could foul up the switches.

Then, after reading your post, I figured that maybe the stick was being restricted by the thickness of the CP (3/4" panel), so I went back downstairs and checked another cabinet with Supers and a metal panel. Nope. Unless I break something else, there is no way that I am messing up those levers.

But then, they say that Nintendo sticks can't be broken and I've seen that that isn't true ...

It could just be types of games played.  I probably played about 90% Capcom fighting games with mine, so there was a lot of rapid movement/torque on the stick.  And after a few years, one of the leafs developed a slight bend.  There was no other damage to the stick and no issues with the housing.

I figured it was just normal wear 'n tear but for an inexpensive joystick, not the end of the world.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 07:56:30 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2013, 07:56:57 pm »
Sorry, but I disagree.  I took the micro leafs off a pretty much new super, that Id gotten in a lot of parts.  I tried to use them in a custom 6 position shifter I was making.  Figuring if I bent them out far enough, they would work decently for the application.
I ordered some more from a happs order, and the same thing.

 And even before this, Id kinda got the idea from a Basketball game that came to the arcade.  It also used a leaf switch that
was similar, but a lot greater in size, and I believe had a roller at the end as well.  Unfortunately, it also suffered constant issues with getting whacked out of alignment. I should have made the connection.


 Once bent past a certain degree, the leafs could not be bent back.  It totally ruined the switches I had ordered.

 While supers may or may not bend them out that far,  I can say that unless they have changed their leaf drastically,
then they are not very robust.  Like anything, with enough joystick actuation's, they will go back to original position, and
eventually, go beyond that.


 As for complaints with comps and diagonals, I have a hard time believing this.  Maybe these are groups of fighters who got
used to supers, and dont fully run the outside edge of the controller as they are supposed to.  The same kinds of people
tend to say a Comp is faulty, because when they let-go of the stick, it bounces!  The key factor here, is that your not
supposed to let go of the stick!  Thats as dumb as letting go of the wheel of an F1 car, thats going over 200mph, on a
treacherous curvy track.

 The supers are simply horrible for fighters.  They are so tight, its like stir thick mud.  The only fighting game in the
Timeout arcade I managed that had supers, was Soul Calibur.   None of the players complained about diagonals on: Killer Instinct 1 & 2, Tekken III, Mortal Kombat III & Ultimate, nor any other game they were on.   Myself included... and I was no
slouch on my fighting game skills.

 The only complaints about fighting games came from broken equipment.  Such as a microswitch failings,
broken connections (I snipped those wretched crimp connectors, cause they failed so often... soldering on wires directly),
and when centering spacers got ate up.

 My schedule was 42 to 50 hrs a week... and sometimes, I was even there after shift, playing a new game kit. (as anyone
caught playing on-shift was subject to immediate termination.. and it happened often).   I also wasnt a manager who
hid in the parts room.  I was visible, in a red Namco shirt, fixing, cleaning, giving change, handing out prizes, running comps,
stocking..etc.   As well as talking with the regulars about martial arts, and or giving them advice on certain games.

 In all that time, never once did people complain about Comps. and diagonals.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2013, 08:18:17 pm »
I was visible, in a red Namco shirt



Oh ... wrong kind of red shirt ... sigh ...

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2013, 10:42:13 pm »
2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent
. . .
and those micro-leafs, are not precise nor durable enough.
. . .
That Micro-Leafs are far different from Actual Leafswitches.   Microleafs do not use spring-steel, and they only
use the metal extension for leverage and helping to keep the activation point from wearing down.

I took the micro leafs off a pretty much new super,

Minor point of clarification for anyone confused by your choice of terminology.

Micro-Leaf switch from GGG:


Lever arm microswitch a.k.a. Snap Switches with Straight Actuators (Happ's nomenclature) used in Happ Super:



Scott

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 02:11:34 am »
While supers may or may not bend them out that far,  I can say that unless they have changed their leaf drastically,
then they are not very robust.  Like anything, with enough joystick actuation's, they will go back to original position, and
eventually, go beyond that.

Happ has been shipping the Supers in the current configuration for a few years now.  They use the E-Switches, and these have levers which are a beefy .022" thick.  They aren't supposed to be spring steel.  If they were, you couldn't adjust them easily.

Quote
As for complaints with comps and diagonals, I have a hard time believing this.

I don't believe math sometimes either, but it makes me look silly when I don't.  It's simple to prove, with as little as a pencil, graph paper and a ruler.

I'll save you the trouble: :)



Quote
Maybe these are groups of fighters who got used to supers, and don't fully run the outside edge of the controller as they are supposed to.

People expect what they expect.  You are comparing two different worlds.  The builder isn't in a situation where he is hanging out at the local arcade, and forced to make do with whatever happens to be on the machine.  They are building it for themselves, and they know how they expect things to perform.  Personally, I have never seen someone choose to make wide circles when playing fighting games.  It takes way too long.  You might have, because, what choice did they really have?

Quote
The supers are simply horrible for fighters.  They are so tight, its like stir thick mud.

I don't know what sticks you were using, but I just measured the force required, on my lab scale, for switch activation on both units.  The results are:

Competitions - ~350 grams
Supers - ~ 310 grams

As you can see, the Competitions are stiffer than the Supers are, and by quite a bit.  Product offerings change over time, and mechanical assembly dynamics change with wear.  Conclusions based on old data, with poor samples really can't be accurate.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:13:14 am by RandyT »

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2013, 11:39:03 am »
Quote from: RandyT
With a square actuator, such as those on the Competitions, you must move further at an angle to actuate the switch.  The round actuator, with bladed switches, gets there faster.  There's really nothing more to it than that.

I don't believe math sometimes either, but it makes me look silly when I don't.  It's simple to prove, with as little as a pencil, graph paper and a ruler.

I'll save you the trouble: :)



Unfortunately the maths is the same for a round actuator on a bladed switch (unless you put a clever concave shape onto the blade). You have to move the stick 1.41 times further on the diagonal.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:10:13 pm by jimmer »
On forums jimmer speaks for himself as a Defender fan, not as proprietor of www.jbgaming.co.uk  << Is that advertising or disclosure ? or both ?

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2013, 12:00:48 pm »
Quote from: Xiaou2
2)  Supers Stink.   They were stiff, and awkward... and the leaf style micros often bent to the point where it made diagonals
inaccurate.  Adjusting the leafs usually just made things worse.  The problem with those style of leafs, is that they use a
very thin and flimsy 'tin like' metal.  It does not maintain its shape well.   But worse, is that once you bend the lever too much,
it breaks the switches functionality...Often popping right out of the switch itself.

Sorry, but I disagree.  I took the micro leafs off a pretty much new super, that Id gotten in a lot of parts.  I tried to use them in a custom 6 position shifter I was making.  Figuring if I bent them out far enough, they would work decently for the application. I ordered some more from a happs order, and the same thing.

Your poor review of the Super joystick looks more like a poor review of your own custom shifter, and your ability to bend switches back and forth.  :lol 

This is actually of interest to me, because I'm considering bending my own blades (I'll be starting a thread)

On forums jimmer speaks for himself as a Defender fan, not as proprietor of www.jbgaming.co.uk  << Is that advertising or disclosure ? or both ?

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2013, 12:42:21 pm »
Unfortunately the maths is the same for a round actuator on a bladed switch (unless you put a clever concave shape onto the blade). You have to move the stick 1.41 times further on the diagonal.

That's because you've made the incorrect assumption that the blades are parallel to the switch bodies.  They are not.  They angle away from it.  The switch arrangement is also rotated slightly, and the activation nubs moved more into the diagonal location.   Obviously, it's still not completely perfect, but the diagonal is activated much sooner.  In use, this is still a marked improvement.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:47:09 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2013, 12:57:24 pm »
We could go into the maths of small angles and small increments, but it's not necessary as I've done another diagram.

edit: Note: the 4 blades have to be 90degress to the 4 directions of travel at the point of engagement. If not  the point of diagonal actuation will not be at 45 degress (and you'll stilll have to move 1.41 times as far).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 01:26:25 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2013, 01:06:57 pm »
I'm going to chime in a little about the Supers, as I have a pair of decade-old+ ones out of my first MAME cab from the same time period. :)

The actuator arms were pretty soft back then, and both myself and my brother did manage to tweak them a little! This was enough to mess the diagonals up.

However, my current-manufacture Rotary sticks, which are Super-based, use what appears to be a different material for the arm, and I've yet to screw that up. I like these sticks. I didn't like my old supers.

Happ Competition sticks are great, too. Don't bother with the current-day ones, though, as the ones back in the day were really iL Eurosticks that Happ Resold. The current-day ones are cheap knockoffs. Just grab real iL sticks from ParadiseArcadeShop or something. :)

I don't like the Japanese sticks. Short, weird throws with weird restriction. Blegh.

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2013, 01:24:54 pm »
I’m only 2 years into this hobby, only have a single cabinet, and I’ve never used a Japanese-style stick. 

With that out of the way, I can say that I’ve spent a lot of time using the Competition, Ultimate, and Super.

I haven’t hated any of them, but the Ultimate is definitely the weakest of those products, IMO.  Pretty sloppy, and after less than a year it was already getting all squeaky and creaky, which drove me insane so I changed it out for a Super. 

I also find the Super a bit sloppy to be honest, but dang, that thing is bulletproof compared to the others.  If they can be “tweaked” to taste, maybe I should look into that.   

I love the Competitions for general purpose 8-way stuff.  I think they feel great, with a nicely sized throw that’s not too long or short.  Plus, if there’s a better bang-for-your-buck out there, I’d like to know what it is.  I agree the diagonals aren’t perfect, but I have no use for fighters, so the only time I notice it is when I’m playing a game like Berzerk or Robotron where you have to regularly “aim” on the diagonals.  Even in those cases, it’s manageable and not the end of the world.  My brother also plays a lot of MAME and has used the same sticks that I have, and the Comps are far and away his favorite too.   

I’m actually glad I don’t care about fighters, because the more threads like this that I read, it seems that those games really complicate things for people like me who just want a single machine with a good general purpose control panel. 

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Re: Choosing the right joystick...So many options
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2013, 01:40:52 pm »
Happ Competition sticks are great, too. Don't bother with the current-day ones, though, as the ones back in the day were really iL Eurosticks that Happ Resold. The current-day ones are cheap knockoffs.

It's really bizarre that this notion keeps getting perpetualized.   In the early days of Happ's production at their own factory, there were a couple of issues.  This is the case with any new mold put on the line, and it takes some tweaking over time to work out some of the issues with the tooling.  I communicated with them extensively about the issues at that point, and modified the sticks before we shipped them, where it was necessary.

Today, however, this is no longer true.  I have measured every dimension of every part on the new HAPP competitions against the IL counterpart and the differences are within a few thousandths of an inch from one another.  They feel the same and perform the same.  It's my understanding from communication with HAPP that this design was a joint effort between IL and HAPP, so the notion that HAPP Competitions are "knockoffs" is ludicrous.

The biggest difference one can make in the performance of this particular style of stick is the switch used.  One where the nub of the switch is taller, and therefore interacts with the actuator more quickly, helps to make them more responsive.  Outside of that, the differences in the build quality are the stuff of fairy tales and marketing hyperbole. :)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 01:43:34 pm by RandyT »