Exciting looking emulation portable - GCW:Zero. Now kickstarted

[opt2not]

Don't mind being labeled in the haters club. I really see no point at this moment in a dingoo clone on steroids. Not to mention buying from a disorganized, dishonest team that already made a cut of money from the first two batches they sold without the need of kickstarter. Not to mention the product isn't exactly unique in the ODM market.

So should I buy a Dingoo instead?  I don't have any of these devices, I'm fresh meat...

Instead of straight hating, what device can you recommend instead? With valid selling-points...?

[Yenome]

Why cannot someone come out with a portable case for mobile phones that have the controls via bluetooth.

http://www.powera.com/moga
something like this and its only 50 buck or so. plus can be used with just bout anything that accepts a bluetooth controller

[Dcpmark]

Don't mind being labeled in the haters club. I really see no point at this moment in a dingoo clone on steroids. Not to mention buying from a disorganized, dishonest team that already made a cut of money from the first two batches they sold without the need of kickstarter. Not to mention the product isn't exactly unique in the ODM market.

So should I buy a Dingoo instead?  I don't have any of these devices, I'm fresh meat...

Instead of straight hating, what device can you recommend instead? With valid selling-points...?

That is what I was going for myself. Having a Dingoo A-320 that runs NeoGeo, Mega Drive, and other games quite nicely, I was wondering what this would do for me that I don't already have. A 3.5" screen isn't a massive improvement over the Dingoo's 2.8" screen like the 5" Android unit I was thinking about getting.

[tris_d]

Don't mind being labeled in the haters club. I really see no point at this moment in a dingoo clone on steroids. Not to mention buying from a disorganized, dishonest team that already made a cut of money from the first two batches they sold without the need of kickstarter. Not to mention the product isn't exactly unique in the ODM market.

So should I buy a Dingoo instead?  I don't have any of these devices, I'm fresh meat...

Instead of straight hating, what device can you recommend instead? With valid selling-points...?

That is what I was going for myself. Having a Dingoo A-320 that runs NeoGeo, Mega Drive, and other games quite nicely, I was wondering what this would do for me that I don't already have. A 3.5" screen isn't a massive improvement over the Dingoo's 2.8" screen like the 5" Android unit I was thinking about getting.

How does MAME4all run on Dingoo, say SF2 or Metal Slug run at full speed? Any glitching or sound crackling issues? Have you noticed any differences in "accuracy" of emulation when compared to most recent MAME builds on a PC?   

Have you played MAME4droid or Reloaded, have you not noticed glitching and sound crackling?

[404]

Don't mind being labeled in the haters club. I really see no point at this moment in a dingoo clone on steroids. Not to mention buying from a disorganized, dishonest team that already made a cut of money from the first two batches they sold without the need of kickstarter. Not to mention the product isn't exactly unique in the ODM market.

So should I buy a Dingoo instead?  I don't have any of these devices, I'm fresh meat...

Instead of straight hating, what device can you recommend instead? With valid selling-points...?

I didn't bother to take jabs at them for the devices capability. I went after them for their money making and marketing tactics. They already have a record of being nearly as shady as Blaze was with their first GameGadget.

If you do want to talk abilities, I'll bite.. I will warn you ahead of time; If you are fresh meat then you should really do some more research on the subject ahead of time. You would realize that your question really works against GCW marketing.

Ask yourself, how many of these already out of the box dingux emulators are going to run better on the GCW? Every single emulator demonstrated running on the gcw are community projects, nearly all open source that so far run perfect if not nearly perfect on a standard dingoo running dingux. One exception to that would be the psone emulator however, the same emulator demonstrated on the GCW ran sub-par.
Hell, the JXD M1000 home console also uses the same processor as the GCW and is marketed as a dedicated psone emulator system; That unit still doesn't play psone games very well and that's literally what the device is primarily marketed to play.

Emulators for the Dingux platform will continue to cater to the standard dingoo hardware for the foreseeable future.

Everyone buys the dingoo for one thing, emulating classic consoles. They don't buy the dingoo to play another tired port of quake or the 3-5 indy homebrew titles available on the platform. The Dingoo and similar portables have and will likely always will be catered and marketed as portable retro gaming handhelds. Nothing more.


There are also a dozen or so non-Igenic SOC based devices out there including the A380 which run a chinachips SOC and have a slew of emulators already available.

Now, if you want to pay more for for the same emulators that the COMMUNITY developed,  a slightly faster processor to run those same emulators, an accelerometer that is currently supported in ZERO games and hdmi support then be my guest; That's your financial funeral.



Still Hatin' 

[RandyT]

I may as well give my views, since I supported the Kickstart project.

Resolution:

What is often overlooked, or possibly ignored, is that more resolution on a device than what it is primarily designed for, is not a benefit.  The resolution picked for this unit was, IMHO, an intelligent and well thought out choice.  More resolution means more work for the device, meaning likely decreased performance where the resolution isn't required, and which could also impact battery life.  Artifacting from downscaling, considering that it will, for a large percentage of the small segment where it is necessary, basically be displayed in "half" resolution.  The screen isn't large, so this should not be offensive.  While some performance could be impacted by the downscaling, these titles would probably still be able to enjoy a performance boost if the emulation is written to discard half the information, rather than process it and not display it.  For odd resolutions, like EGA, this might not be as pretty, but it's a pretty small segment to be extremely concerned about.

Accuracy:

I have to say that, while I understand and appreciate the concerns of folks looking for true accuracy, I think it's a bit misplaced when applied to a device like this one.  On a full size rig, I too want to see the best possible representation.  But this is an OTG device, and one with a fairly small screen.  Fully accurate MAME functionality would be great, but it's not a necessity.  One could just play ports to the lower console systems, but they never really stack up to the originals.  In the end, even with the limitations in earlier versions of MAME, the experience will still be more satisfying than what the ports can deliver, and as long as the hardware can do that well, it will have succeeded in the most important way.

What makes this more interesting than the usual fare:

This is simple.  At least the appearance of an exuberant developer base, and a group dedicated to furthering the cause.  This is something which, as mentioned before, is very hit or miss with the typical Chinese devices of this nature.  The Dingoo has enjoyed a decent amount of support, and it looks like those who developed for it liked it enough to go to work on the hardware side to get past issues they might not ordinarily be able to get past.  This is a "good thing", as it indicates a commitment to the platform.  It also looks like they tried to gauge the hardware base to the task at hand, so that developers for emulation wouldn't be left wanting in the ways which are the most important.  I have a GP2x, which was also supposed to be an emulation powerhouse, and it wasn't bad for it's time.  But even with the support it had, it still wasn't as good as many had hoped.  Community support was short-lived, due to new hardware obsoleting the older, and the poor choice of directional controller doomed it once the better ones came along.  So now it lives on my personal "Island of Mis-fit Toys".   The PSP was the next stop, and it's a great device.  But the sketchy nature of modifying the firmware severely limits the audience for both developers and users.  The system is proprietary, and what is known about the internals had to be hacked to be discovered, or gleaned from an official developer sympathetic to the cause.  This is another hindrance which causes development for the platform to go stale, and one which isn't present with the GCW.  Android, on the other hand, seems very promising.  It's open, and there's no shortage of inexpensive devices which run it and run it well.  But it too has some concerns.  The fact that the hardware bases are so plentiful and varied makes it hard to get the most out of any particular device being developed for, without risking compatibility with others.  And with the Chinese manufacturers cranking out a half dozen new ones every week, this problem isn't getting any better.  So while one could theoretically just pick one to focus on, and push the community in that direction, without financial commitment to the device there is no guarantee that the device will continue to be available, making all of that investment of time, short on return. 

In a sense, the folks with the GCW are doing what I just described as the key for Android, and are going about it in the right way.  A standardized, and fairly powerful, hardware base which they can continue to have manufactured so long as there is demand, and as they seem committed to the device, they have the tools to help fuel that demand.  If they continue to squash the bugs in the emulation, and deliver a solid performing unit, they will cause a "snowball" effect on the size of the user base, which will in turn, help to guarantee continued development.  I believe something not so different is why MAME is where it is today.  If there was no interest (demand) there would not have been so many talented and dedicated individuals involved in the project.  So my feeling is, if the concept of the GCW is one which appeals to you, and you were already considering a Dingoo (which I was), or any other handheld for emulation purposes, why not give it a chance?

[tris_d]

Re; Mame, I agree with Haze. Hacking up old Mame builds isn't doing anybody any good.

Do any good? What does that even mean? What's the alternative? There is simple choice here: old MAME with most of the games running smoothly, or few more thousands of supported games with recent MAME build where barely any game would run at full speed. And what good is then Robotron's more accurate timing if the game is glitching and skipping frames? That is not better emulation, that's worse.

[opt2not]

I didn't bother to take jabs at them for the devices capability. I went after them for their money making and marketing tactics. They already have a record of being nearly as shady as Blaze was with their first GameGadget.

If you do want to talk abilities, I'll bite.. I will warn you ahead of time; If you are fresh meat then you should really do some more research on the subject ahead of time. You would realize that your question really works against GCW marketing.

I may be fresh to pulling-the-trigger on these devices, 'cause none of them did what I wanted them to do, till now. I have done my research extensively though, so when I say I'm fresh meat, it doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. But I wanted to hear what device you'd actually recommend.

Ask yourself, how many of these already out of the box dingux emulators are going to run better on the GCW? Every single emulator demonstrated running on the gcw are community projects, nearly all open source that so far run perfect if not nearly perfect on a standard dingoo running dingux.

The emulators demonstrated on the GCW are perfect re-compiled versions (using the new libraries) of the same emulators on the dingoo's.  The GCW runs them just as well, but with one difference --> quicker loading times based on the hardware's expanded capabilities.

One exception to that would be the psone emulator however, the same emulator demonstrated on the GCW ran sub-par.
Hell, the JXD M1000 home console also uses the same processor as the GCW and is marketed as a dedicated psone emulator system; That unit still doesn't play psone games very well and that's literally what the device is primarily marketed to play.

The psx emulator you have seen demonstrated on the GCW is an unoptimized version. Give it some time, and there is no doubt going to be vast improvements to it's performance. The fact that it ran that good without being optimized is amazing actually! That Castlevania:SOTN and Crash Bandicoot demo shows real promise, since the only setback was frame-rate speeds, when it could have been worse like crashing or failure to load.  In the software industry this is a great sign, and is very workable for developers.

Emulators for the Dingux platform will continue to cater to the standard dingoo hardware for the foreseeable future.

Well that is true, but of course pretty obvious. In software development you have to cater to your lowest hardware spec. It's common to building your projects from the ground up, then when running it on advanced hardware you have already gained that speed-up and efficiency right out the gate. It's a matter of slight changes to cater to that advanced hardware, for (layman) examples: screen resolution, or audio rates. 

Everyone buys the dingoo for one thing, emulating classic consoles. They don't buy the dingoo to play another tired port of quake or the 3-5 indy homebrew titles available on the platform. The Dingoo and similar portables have and will likely always will be catered and marketed as portable retro gaming handhelds. Nothing more.

The only difference for emulation intentions between the two is that the dingoo's physical hardware is inferior. Example: d-pad is cheap, and hard to hit diagonals, smaller screen, etc... AND pretty much everything I wrote earlier about the NGX being inferior.

Now, if you want to pay more for for the same emulators that the COMMUNITY developed,  a slightly faster processor to run those same emulators, an accelerometer that is currently supported in ZERO games and hdmi support then be my guest; That's your financial funeral.

Oh no! A $15 difference is going to break the bank!  Also, you're wrong about the accelerometer: You can use it in Decent, which was already demonstrated in the videos previously posted.
But honestly, the perks of the GCW compared the A320 is well worth the cost of a lunch. I for one would much rather pay for an upgraded device for such a small price margin difference.

Also the superior hardware will benefit homebrew game-devs, those making indie games, which is what the GCW's "legal" statement is solely for. Obviously we're all wanting to run emulators primarily, but the newer games, like for instance Cave Story, will be able to keep up to good performance because of the better hardware. Indie games are a bonus here for me, and I am looking forward to what people do for it.
In fact, I'd be willing to try building my own...I've only ever worked on a team, and have day-dreamed about doing something myself. I know a bit of python, and could probably learn pygame...one more project to list perhaps! 
Hmm....

Anyway, RandyT hits the nail on the head here.  Go GCW go!!! 

[tris_d]

Don't mind being labeled in the haters club. I really see no point at this moment in a dingoo clone on steroids. Not to mention buying from a disorganized, dishonest team that already made a cut of money from the first two batches they sold without the need of kickstarter. Not to mention the product isn't exactly unique in the ODM market.

So should I buy a Dingoo instead?  I don't have any of these devices, I'm fresh meat...

Instead of straight hating, what device can you recommend instead? With valid selling-points...?

I don't think they have anything against the hardware. They seem to hate MAME4all, but they have no alternative. They simply want you to wait until handhelds are powerful enough to run more recent MAME, for some strange reason.

I think you wouldn't make a mistake to buy Dingoo, GP2X or Wiz as it seems to me GCW:Zero doesn't offer much more except that more games would be running at full speed, so it's a question of how many games didn't already run at full speed on Dingoo and do you really care about them. The other question is price difference and waiting period for this thing to come out.

[Dcpmark]

Well, I've come full circle. As an owner of a GP32, a GP2X, a Dingoo A320, a modded PSP, and a modded DS, I didn't think I was ever going to get another "open source" handheld. Just didn't see a reason to. And I don't have an Android-based handheld system for my collection yet, so that's what I thought my next purchase was going to be. But after seeing the reviews for the the latest and greatest Android unit from China, I've decided to get a GCW-Zero. What the hell.....it's only money, and you can't take it with you. 

[404]

I may be fresh to pulling-the-trigger on these devices, 'cause none of them did what I wanted them to do, till now. I have done my research extensively though, so when I say I'm fresh meat, it doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. But I wanted to hear what device you'd actually recommend.

So much for being "fresh meat" right?

The emulators demonstrated on the GCW are perfect re-compiled versions (using the new libraries) of the same emulators on the dingoo's.  The GCW runs them just as well, but with one difference --> quicker loading times based on the hardware's expanded capabilities.

Whoa there. New Libraries do not necessarily mean you are going to get greater performance. Any homebrew dev that has worked with community libs can tell you that.

Sometimes new libs also introduce new bugs to your code. And while new libs may bring on slightly better performance and quicker loading times for roms etc it doesn't mean that its directly correlated to new hardware. That doesn't make the GCW better at all. In fact you just brought up another one of GCW's lame marketing myths.

The psx emulator you have seen demonstrated on the GCW is an unoptimized version. Give it some time, and there is no doubt going to be vast improvements to it's performance. The fact that it ran that good without being optimized is amazing actually! That Castlevania:SOTN and Crash Bandicoot demo shows real promise, since the only setback was frame-rate speeds, when it could have been worse like crashing or failure to load.  In the software industry this is a great sign, and is very workable for developers.

Crashing or failure to load would be a failure of the emulator, not the hardware. That statement in itself brings up yet another dishonest point in GCW's marketing comparisons, which do nothing but bash emulator authors really. They showed the GCW playing a number of games that have known issues on the psp and android. The GCW team then showed those same games running fine on the GCW in a sad attempt to show that somehow their hardware is better than an android device and/or a PSP when nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone with half a brain that wasn't a rabid Dingoo fanboy would quickly come to realize that those bugs are not limitations of the hardware but bugs in the emulators.

As i already stated, there are devices running the same exact hardware that cannot keep up with psone games. Leaves folks with very little excuses in this area. I don't hold my breath on being able to "optimize" for a handful of games at best.

Well that is true, but of course pretty obvious. In software development you have to cater to your lowest hardware spec. It's common to building your projects from the ground up, then when running it on advanced hardware you have already gained that speed-up and efficiency right out the gate. It's a matter of slight changes to cater to that advanced hardware, for (layman) examples: screen resolution, or audio rates. 

You have to cater to the defacto standard. The GCW is not that defacto standard yet.

The only difference for emulation intentions between the two is that the dingoo's physical hardware is inferior. Example: d-pad is cheap, and hard to hit diagonals, smaller screen, etc... AND pretty much everything I wrote earlier about the NGX being inferior.

There are a handful of clones and derivatives. There really isn't anything special about the dingoo tbh.  It's an igenic SOC with an LCD slapped on top. Dingux is not exclusive to the Dingoo and GCW. It will now literally run on any igenic SOC platform. That includes the GameGadget, GameBox, GameBox Advance  and a dozen or so other derivatives.

Hell, you can buy a GameGadet and run dingux in sandbox mode from an SD card. The GameGadget has a slightly faster processor than the original Dingoo and sells for half the price. No issues with diagonals, better build quality etc.

Oh no! A $15 difference is going to break the bank!  Also, you're wrong about the accelerometer: You can use it in Decent, which was already demonstrated in the videos previously posted.
But honestly, the perks of the GCW compared the A320 is well worth the cost of a lunch. I for one would much rather pay for an upgraded device for such a small price margin difference.

wow, you got me there. One game runs the accelerometer! 

Also the superior hardware will benefit homebrew game-devs, those making indie games, which is what the GCW's "legal" statement is solely for. Obviously we're all wanting to run emulators primarily, but the newer games, like for instance Cave Story, will be able to keep up to good performance because of the better hardware. Indie games are a bonus here for me, and I am looking forward to what people do for it.
In fact, I'd be willing to try building my own...I've only ever worked on a team, and have day-dreamed about doing something myself. I know a bit of python, and could probably learn pygame...one more project to list perhaps! 

We can discuss this when there are more indy game titles available for the platform. I don't hold my breath on that at all though.

[RandyT]

Whoa there. New Libraries do not necessarily mean you are going to get greater performance. Any homebrew dev that has worked with community libs can tell you that.

I guess it depends on the libraries.  One of the first things they did was break backwards compatibility by enabling floating-point math hardware, which exists on the GCW, but not on the Dingoo.  This should make certain things considerably faster.  Once they did that, there wasn't much reason to not break it further in the name of performance, so they did.  They also mentioned a way of dumbing it back down for compatibility where necessary, but I don't know if they bothered, as it seems like there are quite a few emulators which have now been tweaked and re-compiled for the GCW.

Crashing or failure to load would be a failure of the emulator, not the hardware. That statement in itself brings up yet another dishonest point in GCW's marketing comparisons, which do nothing but bash emulator authors really. They showed the GCW playing a number of games that have known issues on the psp and android. The GCW team then showed those same games running fine on the GCW in a sad attempt to show that somehow their hardware is better than an android device and/or a PSP when nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone with half a brain that wasn't a rabid Dingoo fanboy would quickly come to realize that those bugs are not limitations of the hardware but bugs in the emulators.

I don't think they ever stated that specifically.  But they are squashing many of those bugs, and IMHO, that is part of what the GCW and Pandora enthusiasts are offering.  In the end, if it doesn't work right on the PSP and Android (and no-one is actively trying, or able, to fix it), and it does on the GCW, isn't that what matters?

As i already stated, there are devices running the same exact hardware that cannot keep up with psone games. Leaves folks with very little excuses in this area. I don't hold my breath on being able to "optimize" for a handful of games at best.

If PSX is one's main focus, there's no better platform for that than PSP.  And like you stated, it probably has more to do with the emulator than the hardware, so I wouldn't count it out just yet.

You have to cater to the defacto standard. The GCW is not that defacto standard yet.

Why do developers who support the GCW and Pandora need to cater to the defacto standard?  Is there even one with these types of gadgets?

There are a handful of clones and derivatives. There really isn't anything special about the dingoo tbh.  It's an igenic SOC with an LCD slapped on top. Dingux is not exclusive to the Dingoo and GCW. It will now literally run on any igenic SOC platform. That includes the GameGadget, GameBox, GameBox Advance  and a dozen or so other derivatives.

Hell, you can buy a GameGadet and run dingux in sandbox mode from an SD card. The GameGadget has a slightly faster processor than the original Dingoo and sells for half the price. No issues with diagonals, better build quality etc.

Which pretty much drives home the idea that it isn't the hardware that is the most important part of the equation.  But it can't hurt.  It boils down to whether you believe that the team behind the GCW is committed to supporting it.  It appears that you don't.  I'm willing to give them a chance for the small price difference and the possible benefit to the community.

It sounds as though you already have something you are more fond of.  Which one are you using?

[tris_d]

wow, you got me there. One game runs the accelerometer! 

On what device with what emulator do you play what other games with accelerometer?

[tris_d]

It sounds as though you already have something you are more fond of.  Which one are you using?

I agree complaints have no much sense without offering an alternative. What are the contenders here? PSP? Android phones? Original Dingoo, or GP2X?

[404]

I guess it depends on the libraries.  One of the first things they did was break backwards compatibility by enabling floating-point math hardware, which exists on the GCW, but not on the Dingoo.  This should make certain things considerably faster.  Once they did that, there wasn't much reason to not break it further in the name of performance, so they did.  They also mentioned a way of dumbing it back down for compatibility where necessary, but I don't know if they bothered, as it seems like there are quite a few emulators which have now been tweaked and re-compiled for the GCW.

Which once again brings up the other question; Exactly how many authors are going to actively support two different builds. At the end of the day, they are going to support their biggest userbase which so far is a dingoo.

I don't think they ever stated that specifically.  But they are squashing many of those bugs, and IMHO, that is part of what the GCW and Pandora enthusiasts are offering.  In the end, if it doesn't work right on the PSP and Android (and no-one is actively trying, or able, to fix it), and it does on the GCW, isn't that what matters?

With all due respect, do you think they are going to specifically state that the emulators on other systems suck? They have however, made that very clear with their own video comparisons. Your statement on development rings true only for the PSP models, Android emulators are still being worked on.

If PSX is one's main focus, there's no better platform for that than PSP.  And like you stated, it probably has more to do with the emulator than the hardware, so I wouldn't count it out just yet.

I wouldn't count on it too much either. The PSP and a dingoo are two totally different beasts.

Why do developers who support the GCW and Pandora need to cater to the defacto standard?  Is there even one with these types of gadgets?

The Pandora is nothing like a dingoo. They run TI OMAP SOC processors. Again, two different beasts.

Which pretty much drives home the idea that it isn't the hardware that is the most important part of the equation.

So why bother defending the GCW. Your words, not mine.  Never told anyone not to buy it. I made my case quite clear as to why i believed they were being less than honest and why i personally would not buy one. If you want to drop your dime on one, be my guest.

  It boils down to whether you believe that team behind the GCW is committed to supporting it.  It appears that you don't.  I'm willing to give them a chance for the small price difference and the possible benefit to the community.

All i ever said was that in my view, they are no different than the GameGadget team on a smaller scale. However, stating that there could be a possible benefit for the community when the community has thrived and is well established already without them is a bit of a misnomer to say the least. It benefits GCW and only them.. at least at the moment.

It sounds as though you already have something you are more fond of.  Which one are you using?

I have and have had many different obscure systems that i enjoy, collecting them is a hobby of mine.  Doing a quick search here would have shown you that I've even documented some igenic based units on these very forums.

[RandyT]

Which once again brings up the other question; Exactly how many authors are going to actively support two different builds. At the end of the day, they are going to support their biggest userbase which so far is a dingoo.

There are answers to these questions.  The GCW folks have stated that they will not support the use any emulators which are not open source.   It's simple to infer from this position that they intend to take the work of others, improve where they are able, and optimize it for the Zero.  Again, they are making clear that support for the hardware is a part of what they intend to offer.   Whether you have confidence in that notion is up to you.

With all due respect, do you think they are going to specifically state that the emulators on other systems suck? They have however, made that very clear with their own video comparisons. Your statement on development rings true only for the PSP models, Android emulators are still being worked on.

Regardless, that doesn't change the reality of things.  They are able to make things work, which don't currently on other platforms.  I also find the future of Android for this type of thing very promising.  However, the best solutions are likely going to be app products which you will need to purchase.  That's not a bad thing, as financial motivation can do wonders for a developer's progress.  But they aren't there yet, and they are already charging money for them.   I'm sure there are also quite a number of Android devices those apps won't work on, or perform poorly with.  A strong, standardized hardware base with good developer support is key for a device like this, as that is the reason you saw improvements in quality for every year a specific classic console was continuing to be offered.

The PSP and a dingoo are two totally different beasts.

A PSX and a x86 system are as well.  Emulation has more to do with system capability than similar architecture, as there is always the option to use brute force, or translation.  The fact that developers have been able to get past the FX chip limitations demonstrates this.

Why do developers who support the GCW and Pandora need to cater to the defacto standard?  Is there even one with these types of gadgets?

The Pandora is nothing like a dingoo. They run TI OMAP SOC processors. Again, two different beasts.

This doesn't answer the questions I posed.

The reason I included the Pandora was that they too have their own scene, not because I thought the architectures were similar.  There was also talk from GCW about teaming up with the other communities, Pandora mentioned specifically, and working toward advancing the emulators.  What is found to work on one, will certainly be of value to the other, so long as the system performances are on par.

So why bother defending the GCW.

Because if you really want to fix some of the issues in the emulators which are out there, you need a group or entity funneling resources to make it happen.  Sure, you might find an extremely talented and devoted individual who will not rest until he has perfected everything and won't take a dime for doing so, but these folks aren't as plentiful as we would all like to think.  While I have no inside knowledge of the business model being considered by GCW, it's not a stretch to think that they will be using proceeds from the profit they make on the consoles to pay some of the hard-working developers for their time.  This is what gets things done.

All i ever said was that in my view, they are no different than the GameGadget team on a smaller scale. However, stating that there could be a possible benefit for the community when the community has thrived and is well established already without them is a bit of a misnomer to say the least. It benefits GCW and only them.. at least at the moment.

You are, of course, entitled to your view.  But since they are being sticklers about the open-source nature of the system and software they choose to support, one would have to conclude that the fixes they come up with will be made public knowledge, and benefit the rest of the community.  Whether those fixes are such that they can be implemented on a lower hardware base is another question, but that wouldn't be the fault of GCW.

I have and have had many different obscure systems that i enjoy, collecting them is a hobby of mine.  Doing a quick search here would have shown you that I've even documented some igenic based units on these very forums.

Don't we all .  But which one specifically are you rooting for to actually make the Zero the completely unnecessary device you claim it to be?  It's fairly obvious you are rooting for a different team and I'm curious to know which.

[tris_d]

I also find the future of Android for this type of thing very promising.

What do you mean? Android is Operating System, not a specific device. What are you referring to? In any case, there is already everything there.  It's been few years now most of the emulators are on the market, and devices powerful enough to run even N64 and PlayStation games at full speed have been around for quite some time as well. What more do you expect future could bring?

The problem with Android (by which I mean Android Smart Phones) are controls. For majority of console, home computer and arcade games touchscreen is not even an option, it's that bad. There are devices with D-pads and even joysticks on them, and there are joystick accessories that can be attached, and yet somehow none of that still doesn't seem to quite compare.



Xperia Play 

For some reason I don't see people consider such devices to be a real contender for gaming handhelds. Perhaps it's price, or maybe people are not aware. Who knows? Why would you for example rather invest in GCW:Zero and wait than simply buy Xperia Play right now? That thing already runs all the emulators at full speed, you will not need another for the rest of your life, and beyond.

[RandyT]

What do you mean? Android is OS, not a specific device.

...

For some reason I don't see people consider such devices to be a real contender for gaming handhelds. Perhaps it's price, or maybe people are not aware. Who knows? Why would you for example rather invest in GCW:Zero and wait than simply buy Xperia Play right now? That thing already runs all the emulators at full speed, you will not need another for the rest of your life and beyond.

All of the above.  My nephew has one of these phones and the first thing he said was that the controls were poor.  It was also costly, and according to him, not a very good phone.

I know Android is an OS.  Like all OSes, how well they run depends on not only the quality of the hardware, but the build of the OS for that hardware.  That last part always seems to be the "rub" with the typical Chinese devices.  Like with the tablets, the very first thing most (who are aware of such things) will do is seek out a hacked ROM to try to fix the performance issues.  Many devices use proprietary drivers which make such endeavors very difficult or even impossible.

There are so many generic Android devices, and now the generic handhelds being added to the fray, that it seems difficult for any of them to take root in the market for any period of time.  Also, many do not come with official marketplace support, which makes getting the software you want more of a chore than a lot of casual users are willing to endure or are capable of.  And even if that "magic" piece of hardware manages to float down the supply chain, how long will it be available before the unknown manufacturer changes the internals and doesn't bother telling anyone?

Like I stated, it looks like there is headway being made on dedicated Android gaming handhelds, but until all of the pieces come together, in a reasonably priced unit, it's still a sketchy proposition.  I currently own 3 Android devices; 2 Chinese tablets and an HTC Inspire 4G.  The only one which I didn't need to spend 10 hours on, researching, rooting and tweaking, in order to get decent use from, was the one which was properly supported and has a well established hardware base.  Outside of the poor Sony example for this type of application, and even that needs to be rooted, there aren't many options yet.

[opt2not]

Bah here I was writing up yet another reply, but RandyT is on the case!
I completely agree on all points RandyT has put on the table, but I just wanted to point out as we continue forward, that the GCW team's  "official support" is open-source homebrew. Not specifically emulators, but the all-encompassing category of home brewed wares. The video examples I mentioned before are from the COMMUNITY, and not official GCW video releases. qbertaddict does not officially represent GCW, he is a community member. 

404: Point of the accelerometer usage is one clear example that you might not be a creditable objecter. It's a small point, but your statement made it seem like you we fully aware of its shortcomings. Which you're not.
 
Secondly your statement about price was also facetious, since it really isn't much of a difference in comparison to the competitors. Also, your failure to state what product YOU already own, rather the knowledge tou hold from research, and lack of backing a specific one just shows that you're arguing for the sake of it.

Also, I was specifically talking about the emulator re:PSX not being optimized. That wasn't a point of the hardware 

I respect your opinion, but I still don't see why I shouldn't back the GCW. the alternatives are still unappealing to me and you haven't presented any factual evidence to sway my opinion. Like I said, out of all the options out there, the GCW looks the most promising for my needs.
 

[tris_d]

What do you mean? Android is OS, not a specific device.

...

For some reason I don't see people consider such devices to be a real contender for gaming handhelds. Perhaps it's price, or maybe people are not aware. Who knows? Why would you for example rather invest in GCW:Zero and wait than simply buy Xperia Play right now? That thing already runs all the emulators at full speed, you will not need another for the rest of your life and beyond.

All of the above.  My nephew has one of these phones and the first thing he said was that the controls were poor.  It was also costly, and according to him, not a very good phone.

I know Android is an OS.  Like all OSes, how well they run depends on not only the quality of the hardware, but the build of the OS for that hardware.  That last part always seems to be the "rub" with the typical Chinese devices.  Like with the tablets, the very first thing most (who are aware of such things) will do is seek out a hacked ROM to try to fix the performance issues.  Many devices use proprietary drivers which make such endeavors very difficult or even impossible.

There are so many generic Android devices, and now the generic handhelds being added to the fray, that it seems difficult for any of them to take root in the market for any period of time.  Also, many do not come with official marketplace support, which makes getting the software you want more of a chore than a lot of casual users are willing to endure or are capable of.  And even if that "magic" piece of hardware manages to float down the supply chain, how long will it be available before the unknown manufacturer changes the internals and doesn't bother telling anyone?

Like I stated, it looks like there is headway being made on dedicated Android gaming handhelds, but until all of the pieces come together, in a reasonably priced unit, it's still a sketchy proposition.  I currently own 3 Android devices; 2 Chinese tablets and an HTC Inspire 4G.  The only one which I didn't need to spend 10 hours on, researching, rooting and tweaking, in order to get decent use from, was the one which was properly supported and has a well established hardware base.  Outside of the poor Sony example for this type of application, and even that needs to be rooted, there aren't many options yet.

That's a bit too dramatic. Perhaps two years ago, or if you went for something really cheep, then you could have such problems, but today it's kind of hard to buy a new one that will not run most of the emulators at full speed, out of the box. Most of the problems you speak of have been largely sorted out, and emulators like all other apps generally run on anything from 2.1 or later OS. While not standardized as iPhone, considering number of various different hardware, Android devices do have quite high compatibility across all the iterations of the OS. Sure there are specific devices having specific problems with particular ROMS, but with time it has become increasingly harder to buy a crappy device even if you go for the cheapest one, and with little research before buying you can ensure to avoid surprises.


So anyway, let me put it this way: if I could find Android phone with similar power as Xperia Play, but with better d-pad/joystick, say as good as on GCW:Zero, and if it was under $150, would you then rather buy that over GCW:Zero?

[RandyT]

That's a bit too dramatic. Perhaps two years ago, or if you went for something really cheep, then you could have such problems, but today it's kind of hard to buy a new one that will not run most of the emulators at full speed, out of the box. Most of the problems you speak of have been largely sorted out, and emulators like all other apps generally run on anything from 2.1 or later OS. While not standardized as iPhone, considering number of various different hardware, Android devices do have quite high compatibility across all the iterations of the OS. Sure there are specific devices having specific problems with particular ROMS, but with time it has become increasingly harder to buy a crappy device even if you go for the cheapest one, and with little research before buying you can ensure to avoid surprises.

It looks like the JXD units are some of the more easily obtainable units available out there.  But I see the same issues being brought up with those.  I have seen the N64 and PSX compatibility demonstrated, but in their current state. I don't believe I would bother.   Gliitchy, slow, etc.. so little gain on that end.  There is also a push to put larger and larger screens on these devices, which, unless you want to pretend you are playing a Wii-U, I don't find as a positive on a device designed to carry around.

So anyway, let me put it this way: if I could find Android phone with similar power as Xperia Play, but with better d-pad/joystick, say as good as on GCW:Zero, and if it was under $150, would you then rather buy that over GCW:Zero?

Phone? Yes, that would interest me.  But it wouldn't take much for the controls to be "better" than those on the Xperia.  How about "really good" instead?   It'll be hard to gauge at this point, though, since not too many people have the GCW:Zero.

[tris_d]

I respect your opinion, but I still don't see why I shouldn't back the GCW. the alternatives are still unappealing to me and you haven't presented any factual evidence to sway my opinion. Like I said, out of all the options out there, the GCW looks the most promising for my needs.

If I were you I'd be worried about just one thing:
- "Another thing that we are still working on is the OpenGL driver."

It sounds to me like they are avoiding to license proper drivers, and if so it will hardly ever be worked out. That's old story with Linux and graphic drivers due to GPU functions being kept secret, in order to protect IP or hide stolen IP. It doesn't mean games would run poorly as you still have 1GHz CPU, but the device as a whole would be underutilized. And what that means is that any 1Ghz Android device, most if not all of which do have proper GPU drivers, would likely outperform GCW, and possibly by large margin.

[404]

There are answers to these questions.  The GCW folks have stated that they will not support the use any emulators which are not open source.   It's simple to infer from this position that they intend to take the work of others, improve where they are able, and optimize it for the Zero.  Again, they are making clear that support for the hardware is a part of what they intend to offer.   Whether you have confidence in that notion is up to you.

To be clear, GCW has absolutely ZERO say in what the unit runs and doesn't. Any coder can make anything that runs on the GCW as it's devoid of DRM. This "support" stuff is pure nonsense and anyone that takes the time to think about that will realize it.

Regardless, that doesn't change the reality of things.  They are able to make things work, which don't currently on other platforms.  I also find the future of Android for this type of thing very promising.  However, the best solutions are likely going to be app products which you will need to purchase.  That's not a bad thing, as financial motivation can do wonders for a developer's progress.  But they aren't there yet, and they are already charging money for them.   I'm sure there are also quite a number of Android devices those apps won't work on, or perform poorly with.  A strong, standardized hardware base with good developer support is key for a device like this, as that is the reason you saw improvements in quality for every year a specific classic console was continuing to be offered.

Made things work? From what they have shown, it's really not at a playable stage yet. See my post above concerning psx/psone emulation. Doesn't matter how anyone tries to spin things, it's still nowhere near where it needs to be.

This doesn't answer the questions I posed.

The reason I included the Pandora was that they too have their own scene, not because I thought the architectures were similar.  There was also talk from GCW about teaming up with the other communities, Pandora mentioned specifically, and working toward advancing the emulators.  What is found to work on one, will certainly be of value to the other, so long as the system performances are on par.

I'm really scratching my head over this one. Really, why would you bother to even bring this up? Any coder with half a brain knows that even if both companies teamed up right now and made some sort of ground breaking announcement it would involve either both units running the same OS, api and/or having the same architecture. They currently do not share any of those traits with each other and would be a long way off.  Silly IMO to even bring this up.

Sure, you might find an extremely talented and devoted individual who will not rest until he has perfected everything and won't take a dime for doing so

^^ Basically didn't need to post any further beyond that IMO

You are, of course, entitled to your view.  But since they are being sticklers about the open-source nature of the system and software they choose to support, one would have to conclude that the fixes they come up with will be made public knowledge, and benefit the rest of the community.  Whether those fixes are such that they can be implemented on a lower hardware base is another question, but that wouldn't be the fault of GCW.

And yet, you made a big fuss about the addition of the FPU to the latest igenic SOC and GCW's ability to use the FPU even if it broke compatability with other Igenic devices. We both know that they could simply use the cpu power overhead to improve emulators running on the GCW without compromising compatibility. Yet, they are promoting FPU usage in their hardware as if it were a godsend to EVERYONE in the community.

Don't we all .  But which one specifically are you rooting for to actually make the Zero the completely unnecessary device you claim it to be?  It's fairly obvious you are rooting for a different team and I'm curious to know which.

I thought i made it pretty clear that i have various consoles. I can already run dingux on a number of different systems including my gamebox and gbasp clone. I don't need a dingoo or GCW for that matter. I'm not rooting for any team. I'm not a vendor, don't sell products and don't pander to an audience. Most importantly, I don't need to put an already completed console which already sold 2-3 batches on to the digital pan-handling website kickstarter for "funding".

[Well Fed Games]

I don't need to put an already completed console which already sold 2-3 batches on to the digital pan-handling website kickstarter for "funding".

For what it is worth, Kickstarter is as much a venue for PR as it is for funding at this point. And not sure if fund raising=begging anyway. My favorite band just successfully kickstarted an album, and it was probably the best album "purchasing" experience I've had as a fan. I hope they do it for every album to come.

[tris_d]

It looks like the JXD units are some of the more easily obtainable units available out there.  But I see the same issues being brought up with those.  I have seen the N64 and PSX compatibility demonstrated, but in their current state. I don't believe I would bother.   Gliitchy, slow, etc.. so little gain on that end.  There is also a push to put larger and larger screens on these devices, which, unless you want to pretend you are playing a Wii-U, I don't find as a positive on a device designed to carry around.

Possibly you are reading some forums where people come to complain about bugs. There are probably hundreds times more people who have nothing to complain about. I've been working on Android for more than a year now, and in process testing software on many various devices almost daily, so I can report to you maybe one in 50 phones would have any problems, mostly just random force close issues or in worst case complete refusal to start application.

1GHz Android should run N64 and PlayStation emulator at full speed, I think even 700MHz CPU with good GPU could. Maybe you didn't try good emulators. I think the best ones were taken off the market, for some reason, and possibly there are no any good left for free. I have whole bunch of them, including those good ones that are no longer available on the market. Let me know if you want to try them out and I'll upload it somewhere.

Phone? Yes, that would interest me.  But it wouldn't take much for the controls to be "better" than those on the Xperia.  How about "really good" instead?   It'll be hard to gauge at this point, though, since not too many people have the GCW:Zero.

Phone, yes, what else? Tablets are too big to be contenders to GCW. A phone with d-pad or stick even, I'll try to google it later on. Something like XperiaPlay, only better and cheaper. I think I shall find something, something interesting at least. That would be the only serious contender to GCW, don't know what else.

[opt2not]

Hey 404, those are all RandyT's quotes, two of your posts back, not mine. Seems to be a theme for you with information you read... 

[404]

Hey 404, those are all RandyT's quotes, two of your posts back, not mine. Seems to be a theme for you with information you read... 

Noticed a horrific pattern of really bad multi-quote support in SMF. Their nested multi-quote really sucks. We should make a kickstarter to save arcadecontrols from the worst forum software imaginable. Now that would be some worthy digital pan-handling!

[tris_d]

Phone? Yes, that would interest me.  But it wouldn't take much for the controls to be "better" than those on the Xperia.  How about "really good" instead?   It'll be hard to gauge at this point, though, since not too many people have the GCW:Zero.

How about this, little sticky joysticks:





Complete handheld:


http://www.aliexpress.com/item/JXD-S7300-1gb-ddr3-android-4-1-1024-600-hdmi-camera-wifi-3G-dual-joysticks-superuser/736007608.html

* Screen Size: 7.0" (1024*600 pixel )
* Cortex A9 Dual core 1.5GHz CPU, ARM mali400 GPU,
* 1GB DDR3 RAM, 8GB internal storage
* 5 point capacitive touch, double LR buttons, two sticks, G-sensor
* HDMI Dual-screen display,  up to 1080P
* USB2.0 High Speed / OTG Connector (keyboard, mouse, flash disk...)
* Wi-Fi (802.11 b/g/n), external connection to Ethernet and 3G

$140.80

[RandyT]

To be clear, GCW has absolutely ZERO say in what the unit runs and doesn't. Any coder can make anything that runs on the GCW as it's devoid of DRM. This "support" stuff is pure nonsense and anyone that takes the time to think about that will realize it.

Obviously.  When I stated "support", I meant the direction of their resources toward a given piece of software.

Made things work? From what they have shown, it's really not at a playable stage yet. See my post above concerning psx/psone emulation. Doesn't matter how anyone tries to spin things, it's still nowhere near where it needs to be.

Wasn't referring to PSX emulation.  More like SNES titles where the FX co-processor was used, transparency effects, advanced interrupt coding methodologies, etc.

Any coder with half a brain knows that even if both companies teamed up right now and made some sort of ground breaking announcement it would involve either both units running the same OS, api and/or having the same architecture. They currently do not share any of those traits with each other and would be a long way off.  Silly IMO to even bring this up.

I guess it's a good thing I have whole one then.  When solving difficult problems, it's not the exact thing one does which is important, rather the methodology and approach one takes.  Those approaches are portable.  In the case of emulation, certain titles are programmed for the native consoles in ways which are undocumented, and in some cases not known to writers of the emulation software.  A couple of the examples shown where the emulator on the GCW:Zero was able to display certain elements of the game, missing on the same game under a different emulator, show this quite clearly.  That doesn't mean the other emulator or hardware running under it isn't able to be fixed, but it could mean that the emulation author didn't know how to accommodate the way the game was programmed and have it function correctly.  This is the type of information which will help further compatibility in the hands of an experienced coder.

And yet, you made a big fuss about the addition of the FPU to the latest igenic SOC and GCW's ability to use the FPU even if it broke compatability with other Igenic devices. We both know that they could simply use the cpu power overhead to improve emulators running on the GCW without compromising compatibility. Yet, they are promoting FPU usage in their hardware as if it were a godsend to EVERYONE in the community.

I think you are reading more into it than what was actually stated.  Any good coder will utilize the resources they have available when they are applicable to the task at hand.  One never knows when that additional overhead will be required for the things for which there are no hardware resources.  Better for them to do it it up front than realize that the horsepower they could have saved is the difference between getting something to run well and not.  Should they also not use the GPU?

I thought i made it pretty clear that i have various consoles. I can already run dingux on a number of different systems including my gamebox and gbasp clone. I don't need a dingoo or GCW for that matter. I'm not rooting for any team. I'm not a vendor, don't sell products and don't pander to an audience. Most importantly, I don't need to put an already completed console which already sold 2-3 batches on to the digital pan-handling website kickstarter for "funding".

Well, I don't really have a horse in this race either.  I also have a gamebox, and have witnessed the hell people were going through to try to get it do anything other than what it was shipped with.  I'm sure there must have been some progress by now, but I gave up on it.  Have they managed to get this fully opened up now?  Anyway, the KickStarter for the GCW:Zero has surpassed it's goal by a good margin, even making it past the second stretch goal.  There seems to be demand for the device, so using KickStarter to get the word out looks like it was a good strategy.  Will they deliver on the promises? Time will tell.  If they do, then great, if not, it's still going to work at least as well as a Dingoo, with a little larger screen and more memory.  Not worth getting emotional about for the small difference in cost.

Possibly you are reading some forums where people come to complain about bugs. There are probably hundreds times more people who have nothing to complain about. I've been working on Android for more than a year now, and in process testing software on many various devices almost daily, so I can report to you maybe one in 50 phones would have any problems, mostly just random force close issues or in worst case complete refusal to start application.

Heh, you must not be dealing with some of these wonderful Chinese tablets.  You get what you pay for with these, so issues are expected.  It's always fun to go to the app store and find a cool looking app thinking "I wonder if this one will work".   But for the most part they do what I need them to, after some tweaking.  I can't help but to think that the gaming units won't be very different in this regard.

1GHz Android should run N64 and PlayStation emulator at full speed, I think even 700MHz CPU with good GPU could. Maybe you didn't try good emulators. I think the best ones were taken off the market, for some reason, and possibly there are no any good left for free. I have whole bunch of them, including those good ones that are no longer available on the market. Let me know if you want to try them out and I'll upload it somewhere.

Thanks for digging those up, but I've seen them.  Too big, on-screen controls, etc...They don't really compete at the form factor.  I've mostly been looking at the YouTube videos and reviews.  Here's one, albeit a bit old, which shows how performance can vary between two supposedly comparable Android devices...it may have improved by now, but it's an interesting video.

[opt2not]

Those look interesting, but the obvious concern for me is they're huge! I can't fit those in my pocket at 9.5"x5"...that's like carrying around a Wii-U!
Plus ugly sprite scaling isn't for me...

The specs look good though, and if I just wanted to play 3D games like PSX or N64 exclusively, I'd probably consider those. But I want good looking sprite-games I can carry around.

Btw: 47 hours to go, and almost at stretch goal #3! Gimme some of that pouch action!

[404]

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/7-INCH-S7300-dual-Core-Smart-android-4-1-1gbddr-8GB-consoles-dual-joysticks-dual-speaker/735860776.html

* Screen Size: 7.0" (1024*600 pixel )
* Cortex A9 Dual core 1.5GHz CPU, ARM mali400 GPU,
* 1GB DDR3 RAM, 8GB internal storage
* 5 point capacitive touch, double LR buttons, two sticks, G-sensor
* HDMI Dual-screen display,  up to 1080P
* USB2.0 High Speed / OTG Connector (keyboard, mouse, flash disk...)
* Wi-Fi (802.11 b/g/n), external connection to Ethernet and 3G

$141.50

Friend of mine was just shipped a sample of the S7300. should know how well that works in the next few days. 

[tris_d]

Those look interesting, but the obvious concern for me is they're huge! I can't fit those in my pocket at 9.5"x5"...that's like carrying around a Wii-U!
Plus ugly sprite scaling isn't for me...

The specs look good though, and if I just wanted to play 3D games like PSX or N64 exclusively, I'd probably consider those. But I want good looking sprite-games I can carry around.

Btw: 47 hours to go, and almost at stretch goal #3! Gimme some of that pouch action!

What do you mean ugly sprite scaling? Because the screen is large so all the game would get scaled? There is powerful GPU there to anti-alias all that, smooth the whole screen. Plus, lots of emulator i think have some post-rendering filters like scan lines effect and such, just like on a PC.
 
By the way, I just realized those four handhelds are actually just one and the same device, from different suppliers I guess, hence different price. I'll delete 3 and leave just one.

[tris_d]

Friend of mine was just shipped a sample of the S7300. should know how well that works in the next few days. 

I'm looking forward to hear about it.

[RandyT]

Friend of mine was just shipped a sample of the S7300. should know how well that works in the next few days. 

Looks like a nice unit, based on the videos.  If I was in the market for something that large, this one would be on the short list.

[opt2not]

What do you mean ugly sprite scaling? Because the screen is large so all the game would get scaled? There is powerful GPU there to anti-alias all that, smooth the whole screen. Plus, lots of emulator i think have some post-rendering filters like scan lines effect and such, just like on a PC.

Exactly, ugly. You'll never going to be able to get it looking like it did with those filters. Beleive me, I've put together a handful of mame cabs, working on a couple more at the moment (all posted here). I've exausted my patience with trying to get the original look on LCDs. This is why a majority of people on this forum build cabinets with an ArcadeVGA (in conjunction with soft15khz) hooked up to a CRT. At least, the good ones.
I really don't want to get into this debate yet again, there are a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- ton of threads about this already.

Native resolutions on a small screen is fine by me.

Welcome to the forum. Have a look around.

[404]

Exactly, ugly. You'll never going to be able to get it looking like it did with those filters. Beleive me, I've put together a handful of mame cabs, working on a couple more at the moment (all posted here). I've exausted my patience with trying to get the original look on LCDs. This is why a majority of people on this forum build cabinets with an ArcadeVGA (in conjunction with soft15khz) hooked up to a CRT. At least, the good ones.
I really don't want to get into this debate yet again, there are a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- ton of threads about this already.

Native resolutions on a small screen is fine by me.

Welcome to the forum. Have a look around.

You bash large screens because they offer "ugly" scaling for low resolutions yet you seemingly ignore the fact that the GCW offers a higher resolution than most retro games ran in natively.

Seriously, I rest my case. 

[opt2not]

You bash large screens because they offer "ugly" scaling for low resolutions yet you seemingly ignore the fact that the GCW offers a higher resolution than most retro games ran in natively.

Seriously, I rest my case. 

By what 16 pixels for most consoles? It would be ridiculous to scale at that difference. Please read the previous posts about resolutions.

Are we really going to bring up your $15 price difference issue yet again? Same type of exaggeration.

Just take your case and please do rest it. You're embarrassing yourself now.

[tris_d]

Heh, you must not be dealing with some of these wonderful Chinese tablets.  You get what you pay for with these, so issues are expected.  It's always fun to go to the app store and find a cool looking app thinking "I wonder if this one will work".   But for the most part they do what I need them to, after some tweaking.  I can't help but to think that the gaming units won't be very different in this regard.

I have tested quite a few tablets as well. I'd say the bottom line is that for any 1GHz Android you should be able to find at least one emulator (for almost any given platform, including N64 and PSX) that works well and full speed on that particular device.

Thanks for digging those up, but I've seen them.  Too big, on-screen controls, etc...They don't really compete at the form factor.  I've mostly been looking at the YouTube videos and reviews.  Here's one, albeit a bit old, which shows how performance can vary between two supposedly comparable Android devices...it may have improved by now, but it's an interesting video.

I think Snapdragon (the one that glitched) is actually better then the other one. Some other N64 emulator should work just fine on that phone, or some earlier version of that same emulator. It's annoying you have to try different emulators sometimes, but good chances are at least one should work just fine.

[Malenko]

All these broken up quote replies are giving me Xouchebacks and headaches.  Im gonna get one of these because it looks like its gonna be a great little OTG device to play some old consoles. MAME and PSX performance dont mean much to me, but I think maybe we should draw our conclusions AFTER its released. For those who don't want to buy one......then don't buy one?

Haze, you seem to not like the "4all" emulators and what not, why not get MAME or MESS ported over to this or the dingoo?

[404]

By what 16 pixels for most consoles? It would be ridiculous to scale at that difference. Please read the previous posts about resolutions.

Are we really going to bring up your $15 price difference issue yet again? Same type of exaggeration.

Just take your case and please do rest it. You're embarrassing yourself now.

16 pixels? What will you be mostly playing?

And please, don't be so worried about me embarrassing myself. You have contradicted yourself at every step; even so much as ignoring my statements that there are cheaper units out there which make your continual $15 price difference excuse null and void. Then again, YOU are the one that wanted to bring up technical comparisons of the devices, not me. 

My gripe with them is their shady tactics. Your grip with everyone else is that their project is not as "kewl" as the GCW.