ZD Encoder + Mala = controls won't register unless I replug USB - Now with Video

[leapinlew]

I'm using a Dell Dimension 4600 a ZD Encoder Rematch and Mala. When I boot up the system, the ZDEncoder doesn't work in Mala. If I exit Mala and look at the windows control panel joystick, it lists the joystick as about eight straight lines - like this IIIIIIIII. If I unplug the USB and replug it, it lists it as a USB Game Pad and if I relaunch Mala it works.

What am I doing wrong?

[leapinlew]

Attached is a pic of the lines I was referring to

[leapinlew]

I booted directly into MALA and I get the joystick issue. If I boot directly into Windows, the gamepad looks fine in the control panel and works fine.

If I check the "Start Mala when windows starts" it doesn't work
If I boot into windows and then launch MALA, it works

[leapinlew]

If I put mala.exe in the startup group, it works. That's what I'm going to do to work around this issue.

Fat lot of help you guys were! 

[BobA]

Gee if you had given us more than 57 minutes we might have got around to trying 

[leapinlew]

You still have a chance to help!

I was wrong. It didn't fix it. It's intermittent. Don't think it's a MALA issue since it happens in windows also. I thought I read somewhere that the ZD Encoder could need unplugged/replugged to be recognized, but I thought it was for PS3's.

[BobA]

My ZD encoders come up right away as game controllers.  How does the controller register with just a windows boot up?

[leapinlew]

Same deal... all squares.

I have another ZDEncoder. Let me see what it does.

[leapinlew]

I have created a video. It's an intermittent problem. In the video, it boots up successfully twice in a row and on the third time it fails, but normally it's 1 out of 10 reboots is a success. I have 2 brand new ZD Encoder Rematches. Here is what I have tried so far:

• Swapped out the USB cable to the ZD Encoder 1 - still broke
• Removed all the buttons from the ZD Encoder 1 - still broke
• Installed ZD Encoder 2 alone - no buttons, only the USB cable and made the video - still broke
• I checked the BIOS on my Dell Dimension 4600 and it is the newest version (A12)
• Windows XP SP3 has not been updated, but I figured SP3 would be good enough
• Tried the ZDEncoder on a different computer - seems to work fine after half a dozen reboots

Is it Windows or my computer choice? I'm not sure what to make of this. I guess I can pull down windows updates, but I suspect it may be related to the hardware.

At 2:22 you can see a reboot which shows the USB Gamepad as not installed properly. I unplug and replug the USB and it works fine.

[Nephasth]

Do you have any issues with any other USB devices and that computer?

[leapinlew]

Do you have any issues with any other USB devices and that computer?

The only other USB devices I am using is the mouse, keyboard and the external HD I used to transfer data to/from. It's a fresh install. Other than this, everything has worked great. I feel it's a issue with the computer. I do have some other Dell Dimension 4600's that are the exactly the same to see if the problem follows the model or my specific computer.

[BobA]

Try this program USBview.EXE to see if it gives you any more info on the controller.   It has to be unzipped.

[leapinlew]

I haven't had time to use the tool yet BobA, but I tried a couple more things. I switched to a Dell Dimension 1100 and still have the exact same problem. I updated the drivers, BIOS and windows updates.

Now I'm loading Windows 7 to see if I have any better luck.

[HaRuMaN]

Shoulda went with a Haruman Quality Hack (tm) instead...   

[leapinlew]

Using Windows 7, I still have the same error, but the picture looks different. See attached - the pic of japanese writing is what it looks like sometimes and the stick won't work. When I unplug/replug the stick it works. At this point, I'm thinking it has something to do with the Dells I'm using. I'm using Dell Dimension 1100's, 4600's, and 4700's which are all very similar, using the same encoder on different machines works 100% of the time. This is a major bummer since I have plenty of these machines.

[leapinlew]

Bump!

Anyone have any ideas, thoughts or suggestions? I'm guessing it's some sort of flaw specific to these systems and not to my encoder. I'd really like to use these encoders since I bought'em, but if I have to go with an ipac that's what I'll do.

[HaRuMaN]

Have you tried rebooting?

I hear audacity may work, too...

[BobA]

Did you get to try USBview on the controller with computers that work and the Dells that do not?

[Malenko]

try it in a usb hub/powered usb hub

[leapinlew]

Did you get to try USBview on the controller with computers that work and the Dells that do not?

Ok BobA. I did. I attached 2 pics which are different, but I'm not sure why Windows identifies them differently.

[leapinlew]

try it in a usb hub/powered usb hub

Awesome suggestion Malenko. It has helped to provide more information. Using a USB powered hub and experimenting, I have found out the following info which will hopefully be useful

• If the USB Gamepad is connected to a powered USB hub and is on before the computer is on, the USB gamepad is correctly identified and works as expected
• If the USB Gamepad is connected to a powered USB hub and is powered on at the exact same time as the computer, the USB gamepad is not correctly identified and shows up as Asian symbols (windows 7) or squares (windows XP)

I'm not sure if this info progresses things at all, but at least it's consistent behavior. In the video, you can see that I get the squares once I power down the system and bring it up from a cold boot.

Unplugging and replugging the device always results in the gamepad being properly installed.

Any more suggestions or thoughts?

[leapinlew]

And FYI

These are fresh formatted OS's. It's older hardware. I have tested on 3 different machines (different models). The machines are in good working order. They needed BIOS batteries, which I installed already.

[leapinlew]

The Intel Chipset is: 82801eb
I found some updated drivers, which udpated the drivers from 2001 to September 2006. Still no change.

I turned off the power management on the USB hubs in Device Manager per a websites recommendation. Still no change.

[leapinlew]

I'm pretty sure at this point I did not save any money with this damn thing. 

[BobA]

The not working usb info identifies the controller as a sony unit.   This is probably where the oriental characters came from.  This does not help other than to prove that the ID is wrong when it does not work and it is probably due to the timming in how the dell computers power up.   Since the dell models are similar and are all malfunctioning and other computers do not you could add some sort of time delay to the startup of the dells so that the controller is id'd correctly.    Not sure if a dummy program or task can be used to delay when the USB connections are processed.

[leapinlew]

The not working usb info identifies the controller as a sony unit.   This is probably where the oriental characters came from.  This does not help other than to prove that the ID is wrong when it does not work and it is probably due to the timming in how the dell computers power up.   Since the dell models are similar and are all malfunctioning and other computers do not you could add some sort of time delay to the startup of the dells so that the controller is id'd correctly.    Not sure if a dummy program or task can be used to delay when the USB connections are processed.

I was sort of thinking along those lines. I turned off "Fast Boot" in the BIOS. Not sure what it does, but thought it couldn't hurt. Malenkos suggestion of a powered USB seemed to be a good one, but I don't get any different results. I don't think the problem is the delay as much as it's improperly installed by Windows (in both XP and 7 though - weird). I thought I might be getting somewhere with updated chipset and USB drivers (from Intel not Dell).

No dice.

At this point, I could either go with a ipac or a different computer. Since it's already mounted, I'll probably change out the controller. Hell, I could get an Intel Atom board with memory for $65 delivered so I may go that route too. Ugh. I'm going to give this a few days to see if anyone has an answer before I just purchase something else.

[leapinlew]

Ok... so I tried 1 more thing. I was able to workaround the problem by using a add-in PCI USB card. The good news is the cost of a low profile card is around $10

If anyone else stumbles across this thread and can reveal the details on why this happened, please do. I assume it's some incompatibility with the chipset or something. The solution in my case may not be possible if you are using a laptop or something, but if you have a desktop with an open PCI port, this is 1 method you can use.

I'm going to finish this machine now.  What a mess.

[leapinlew]

This was the controller I had on hand:
http://www.sybausa.com/productInfo.php?iid=796


But I'm going to assume most other controllers should work.

[BobA]

Since it did work sometimes with your on board usb do you think the PCI usb card may have solved the problem because of where or when in your Dell's startup the port is initiallized?

AND  Good work!

[leapinlew]

Since it did work sometimes with your on board usb do you think the PCI usb card may have solved the problem because of where or when in your Dell's startup the port is initiallized?

AND  Good work!

no. I don't think it had anything to do with prioritization of when it started. I could be wrong, but I remember at some point in the process eliminating that as a suspect.

[MedievalMan]

Found this post since I'm experiencing the exact same set of symptoms with a recently purchased ZD Encoder.
I'm using a non-dell PC though, custom built PC and a AMD A3400 / Gigabyte motheboard.

I temporarily fixed this by moving the USB from the 4 on the motherboard, to the 2 ports in front (that are also connected to the motherboard, not another card)

However, after a few more reboots/couple weeks later, it's doing the same thing regardless of which USB port it's plugged into (on disconnecting/replugging in after bootup fixes the issue).

Looks like the only permanent fix is buying a PCI USB card...

This post is over 1.5 years old, I don't suppose anyone has found any other solution.

-Matt

[leapinlew]

Looks like the only permanent fix is buying a PCI USB card...

That's what I did.

This is the card I purchased and it works consistently: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004F3B5Z2

[leapinlew]

Oh, and for what it's worth - I wish I never went down the road to try to fix the issue, when the workaround was $8. I lost lots of time trying to fix it.

[dynomike]

I had this EXACT same problem with one of these encoders. Ran around a while trying to get it to work and then found this thread. A PCI to USB card works like a charm for me too. I, too, am using a Dell but I tried it on two other computers (not Dell) and it did the EXACT same thing.  One thing I also noticed that I don't think was mentioned in this thread......When I had the encoder plugged in and in proper working status, if I soft-rebooted the computer it would install fine. It was only when cold booting from an off state that it would install showing that Chinese font in the devices window and not work just like you guys described.

Another thing I can add is that I DID get it to work when it installed the "wrong" way by jumpering the "mode" connector and leaving it jumpered. When booting up that way, it would still install "wrong"....ie Chinese font and not as the correct "Gamepad".....but in the game controller settings, all of the functions would register as button presses (versus no response at all without that jumper). This way, I could use it by mapping my Mame controls accordingly. It wasn't too convenient to leave it that way because with controller mapping set for that, when I soft re-booted the machine or unplugged and re-plugged the encoder, then it would install "correctly" and my controller mapping wouldn't work.  But it could have been a feasible work around if I hadn't found a better option.

I picked up a PCI to USB card for $5 at a used computer store locally and that did the trick. Clearly the problem is in the way the USB controller on the motherboards interacts with the encoder from a cold start. I think the Bios registers it as a keyboard then when Windows loads it goes with that and for some reason doesn't see the "gamepad" part of the encoder and install accordingly. But when you soft re-boot....the encoder never powers off and when the computer reboots the bios doesn't see it as a keyboard because the encoder is already booted up itself into the "gamepad mode"....so then the proper "Gamepad" part of the encoder is not "pre-empted" from Windows by the keyboard function of the device registered in the bios.

That's my best guess.  Maybe I'm way off, but it's the only thing that sounds logical to me. What's more logical than all of that though, is that the designer/manufacturer/coders of this device are morons....or at least whacky engineers who can understand a bunch of ones and zeros but can't tie their shoes.  Cheap Chinese crap. Hope this info helps someone else as much as the previous posts ont his thread helped me. Saved me from spending more $ on another encoder and junking the one I already have.

Thanks so much for this thread!

Dyno-Mike in Albuquerque, NM

[leapinlew]

1st post eh Mike? What are you building? would love to see some pics.

Being one of the first people to have this problem sucked, but fortunately the work around is inexpensive. I spent quite a bit of time trying to fix the issue before I decided the $10 fix was just too easy. I had the same issues as you as far as cold boot vs soft boot, but it wasn't 100% consistent either. Some cold boots would lose it (like 1 out of 10).

Either way, glad you are up and running! 

[dynomike]

I just got done building my second Mame cabinet. Here is a video of it.



I built my first Mame cabinet a few months ago. Which would be this one.....

I learned a lot with the first one. Then when I built the second one it was a breeze. I have the first one and am keeping it for myself because the "Red Alert" cabinet it is in is just too cool. The second one was built for a customer. He wanted to buy the first one from me but I hesitated to sell that cabinet and got lucky finding the second one to build for him.

The biggest challenge is getting a pc to work with a proper crt monitor. I found the easiest way to do it is to find a tv with COMPONENT inputs. It's relatively easy to find cheap video cards with HDTV out. But finding the RIGHT connectors was a challenge. If anyone needs info on the proper HDTV cables for ATI video cards, I have sort of figured it out.

The only problem with this, though, is that virtually all CRT tv's with component inputs are flat crt's. This is only a slight disadvantage as the flat screen crt tv in the first one I built looks FANTASTIC. Has all the advantages of a vintage arcade monitor except that it is not curved. But it is a million percent better than an LCD.
I also experimented with a couple CRT computer monitors (curved screens). Works pretty good too, better than an LCD, but the resolution of those monitors is too high and you have to compensate by using the scan line images, which is pretty cool, but not really accurate and nowhere near as bright  and high contrast as a regular tv/arcade monitor.

In the SECOND machine I built...I got REALLY lucky and found an older CURVED crt 25" tv WITH COMPONENT INPUTS for $15! I don't believe I will find another one like it.  The crt bolted right into the cabinet which was made for a 25" tube to begin with. Then all I had to do was mount the tv's chassis to the inside of the cabinet and connect it to the pc via the red/green/blue component connection. Gives a PERFECT authentic arcade image. 

I am currentley searching for any 25" crt tv's WITH component inputs. Flat or curved. Lot's of 27's around. Lots of 19/20s around. But hard to find 25's. I  already have a couple more 19/20" tv's with component inputs to use for more machines. But the 25"er was way cooler and I hope to do more of those if I can find them.

I have also started to experiment with an arcadvga 15khz card and a universal arcade monitor chassis on another 25" tube I have. That is not going well. I am sure I can dial it all in, but it is gonna be so frustrating trying to configure a setup like that which will always need fiddling with on every one I build. The component input tv's make the whole thing simple and smooth and look perfect. 

Sorry if this is all off the subject of this particular thread. I found this thread by searching for the zero delay encoder problem and i am grateful for your posts which led me to the solution. A PCI-usb card simply solves the problem and you can get them for $5 all day on Ebay.

Thanks guys!!