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Author Topic: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet  (Read 9668 times)

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jmarket

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New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« on: November 10, 2012, 06:14:55 pm »
I have been looking around and found a few bartop designs. I have a computer and 17" LCD monitor that I can use and here is a parts list for controls. This will be my first mame cabinet and I am trying to keep costs low. Let me know what you think. All suggestions welcome


Xin Mo 1 player Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/mame-arcade-parts/229-xin-mo-1-player-arcade-controller-to-usb-pc-or-ps3.html

White IL Concave Pushbutton PSL-L
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-concave-buttons/268-white-il-concave-pushbutton-psl-l.html

Black IL Concave Pushbutton PSL-L
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-concave-buttons/269-black-il-concave-pushbutton-psl-l.html

Black IL 1 Player Imprint Pushbutton PSL-L
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-imprint-buttons-white-and-black/322-white-il-1-player-imprint-pushbutton-psl-l.html

Black IL 2 Player Imprint Pushbutton PSL-L
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-imprint-buttons-white-and-black/326-white-il-2-player-imprint-pushbutton-psl-l.html

Black IL Eurostick Joystick (aka Happ Competition)
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-eurostick-joystick/165-il-eurostick-joystick-black.html

PS2 LED Trackball
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/trackball/47-ps2-led-trackball.html


Thanks

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 07:15:37 pm »
Welcome aboard, Jmarket.

Looks like fairly standard hardware choices.

You thinking about upgrading to 20 gram switches with those IL buttons?

Since you mentioned price as a consideration, have you looked at Vigo's gamepad-style ZD encoders or Degenatron's keyboard-style AVR encoder?

Looks like it's time to visit Slagcoin to find a layout you like and decide what front end software and admin buttons you want.


Scott

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 08:51:18 am »
Do you suggest upgrading to the 20 gram switches?

What admin buttons will I need?

I was planning on six of the for playing and a black button to turn on the computer in the cabinet.

I was looking at MALA do you have any suggestions?

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2012, 10:04:18 am »
If you want to go with American style parts like that, I'd recommend iL competition buttons.

Looks like it's time to visit Slagcoin to find a layout you like and decide what front end software and admin buttons you want.

+1.  Use the info there to select a button layout.  The layout you pick for the main player buttons will have a big impact on how it feels.

What admin buttons will I need?

I would make a quick and sloppy test panel to test out layouts and admin buttons.  Play with MAME for a while and see what works for you.  You should probably go through few drafts before you commit to a final layout for your cabinet.  You could make the test panels out of unfinished MDF or even cardboard in places, just so it's quick and you can move things around.

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2012, 10:47:13 am »
Do you suggest upgrading to the 20 gram switches?
Lighter switches require less pressure to actuate.  Regular 50 gram or even heavy 125 gram switches are no big deal for a couple of presses, but it adds up when you're playing a rapid-fire game for an extended period.

Worst case scenario, you're out 10 cents per button to upgrade to 20 gram microswitches.
Best case scenario, less fatigue during extended gaming sessions.

What admin buttons will I need?

I was planning on six of the for playing and a black button to turn on the computer in the cabinet.
Ahh, the timeless argument: How many admin buttons?

Short answer is this: How many do you need to get the job done the way YOU like to do it?

Functions to consider
P1 Start

P1 Coin

P2 Start

P2 Coin - Needed if the games you want require a separate coin slots for each player TMNT, Gauntlet, etc.

Pause

Exit - Some people configure MAME so you return to MALA when pressing P1 and P2 Start at the same time, some use a dedicated button.

Menu - The controversial one.  If you like tweaking settings and don't have stupid friends or nosy kids, you may want it.  Some people have one, but put it in a hidden location to reduce the chance of someone messing up their settings.

Power button for computer - Sounds good, but how do you plan on switching on the monitor?
If it powers on automatically when you plug it into the wall outlet, a smart strip will do just fine.
If not, a DPST or DPDT switch wired like this may be the answer.

I was looking at MALA do you have any suggestions?
Sounds like a great choice.

I would make a quick and sloppy test panel to test out layouts and admin buttons.
+1 on building a test panel.  It also allows you to test your admin buttons with MALA.

You may discover that you prefer having 1 or 2 more admin buttons than you thought, so order a few more buttons than you think you need -- it costs a lot less than placing a second order and paying for shipping.


Scott

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2012, 11:31:54 am »
As far as the buttons here is what I am thinking right now.

Joystick and 6 buttons for game play.
Player1, Player2, P1 Coin, P2 Coin, Pause, Power for computer

Will the Xin Mo 1 player Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3 control all these buttons?

Here is the Joystick and 6 button layout I am thinking.
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout/z_face.jpg

I will look into the monitor power.

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2012, 11:46:34 am »
Joystick and 6 buttons for game play.
Player1, Player2, P1 Coin, P2 Coin, Pause, Power for computer

Will the Xin Mo 1 player Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3 control all these buttons?

Power for computer doesn't connect through the Xin-Mo, so that gives you joystick + 11 buttons.

The 1P Xin-Mo can do joystick and up to 12 buttons, so you can add one more button if desired.


Scott

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2012, 11:58:10 am »
I also plan on just using a cardboard box for the control panel for testing to make sure I can get everything configured and working before even making the wood cabinet. Thanks for your help and suggestions. If any other thoughts please share.

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2012, 11:59:08 am »
Will the Xin Mo 1 player Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3 control all these buttons?

Apparently that encoder lags.  Stay away.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,113432.0.html

I'm not going to bash Paradise Arcade's customer service because I had a good experience with them.  I got my 2-player Xin Mo in under a week.  (Hawaii to Ohio)

I will make a comment on the performance of the two-player Xin Mo.  I have noticeable lag.  I had a j-pac go bad and I was short on cash so I went with a less expensive alternative.  Playing Donkey Kong, the lag was immediately noticeable.  Going up the 1st ladder(or any ladder) and attempting to turn left(or right) without hesitation is impossible.  Trying to play Pac-Man/Ms. Pacman w/speedup hack was frustrating as well.  Having the joystick pushed down and watching Pac-Man zoom right by the opening I intended had me cussing the little yellow chomp monsters.  All games I play now suffer from the lag. 

Attempting to make sense of this and make sure I wasn't halucinating, I tried using USB and PS2 keyboards and the lagging did not exist as DK & PM were much more playable.  I'm sure if I mashed a whole bunch of keys I would mess things up, but my issue was with lag and not ghosting.

I'm out of work right now so I'm stuck with what I have...but when my finances improve, another keyboard encoder is on my short list.

I would recommend using an MC Cthulhu for each player.  That will give you more than enough buttons, no lag, and the option to hook up consoles down the road.

Here is the Joystick and 6 button layout I am thinking.
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout/z_face.jpg

Do you mean those stick and buttons, or just referring to the layout?

That looks like an Astro City player 2 layout.  I'd recommend the player 1 layout.  That's what I'm using.  It's all on that site.

Read the pages on there about differences between sticks and buttons.  I'd actually recommend Japanese parts over American, but that's a whole other argument.

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2012, 12:00:37 pm »
I also plan on just using a cardboard box for the control panel for testing to make sure I can get everything configured and working before even making the wood cabinet. Thanks for your help and suggestions. If any other thoughts please share.

Might need some wood around the stick for support, but you can use cardboard where possible to make it easily adjustable.

jmarket

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2012, 12:05:42 pm »
Seen these buttons for Coin and Pause. I assume they still work if you don't power the LED?

http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/led-chrome-pushbuttons/35-led-pushbutton-with-bw-insert.html

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2012, 12:11:01 pm »
Yeah, they would, but why not power them?  Most encoders have a 5v connection to power things like that.  Very easy to wire.

jmarket

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2012, 12:28:20 pm »
One thing that I forgot to ask about was speakers with volume control. Any suggestions?

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2012, 01:53:50 pm »
Will the Xin Mo 1 player Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3 control all these buttons?
Apparently that encoder lags.  Stay away.
Read the rest of that thread and you'll see that most posters did not have a problem with lag, when they even noticed it.
I also noticed that he mentioned using DK as the test game -- a game which has known issues when you hit diagonals -- so there may be something other than just the encoder causing problems.   :dunno

I would recommend using an MC Cthulhu for each player.  That will give you more than enough buttons, no lag, and the option to hook up consoles down the road.

Three points:

1. OP mentioned that cost was a concern.  See post #2 in this thread for a link to Vigo's ZD Encoder for about half the price of the MC Cthulhu and no lag issues that I've heard of.

2. OP is building a bartop instead of a fightstick, so the multi-console feature is wasted.

3. OP is using one joystick and 6 buttons, so not sure where the "for each player" part comes in.  The P2 Coin/Start buttons allow for alternating 2 player games.

One thing that I forgot to ask about was speakers with volume control. Any suggestions?

Logitech LS21 was mentioned here.

TheShaner used a setup with an external volume control here.


On second thought, those are probably too big.  Something like this or this or even this might be better.

One final question -- What types of games do you plan on playing most?  (It may influence your choice on the joystick.)


Scott
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 02:18:20 pm by PL1 »

jmarket

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 02:27:07 pm »
This will be in my basement / man cave and played by myself and others. I will use it for playing some basic older games. Excitebike, dig dug, pac-man, spy hunter, pole position and others. It will not be dedicated to any certain type of game.

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2012, 03:01:49 pm »
After looking at the link you provided below I am thinking about doing a 2 player bartop.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120194.msg1274381.html#msg1274381

 

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 03:41:40 pm »
Read the rest of that thread and you'll see that most posters did not have a problem with lag, when they even noticed it.
I also noticed that he mentioned using DK as the test game -- a game which has known issues when you hit diagonals -- so there may be something other than just the encoder causing problems.   :dunno

I agree that there could be other things going on with DK, but if multiple people noticed some kind of lag then it likely has some.  That is enough to say that it should be avoided.

As for people saying "they don't have a problem with it," that's a complete failure of logic IMO.  The most important thing about an arcade cabinet should be how well it can be played.  Lag puts a direct cap on how well a game can be played.  Whatever you natural response time is, the lag adds to it to for a longer delay.

The two (human response time and hardware lag) are additive.  They don't "cancel out;" that seems to be a common notion and it's nonsense.  Sorry, that part's not an opinion, it's scientific fact.

For proper gaming, input lag should be eliminated wherever possible.  Sometimes we have to compromise by accepting some lag from our display if we can't use a proper CRT, but it should still a point to find the quickest flat screen available.  As for a controller encoder, any lag at all should be unacceptable, given there are several others choices without lag.

1. OP mentioned that cost was a concern.  See post #2 in this thread for a link to Vigo's ZD Encoder for about half the price of the MC Cthulhu and no lag issues that I've heard of. 

One MC Cthulhu is $35, a PS3/PC Cthulhu is $30.  If that is too much and he doesn't care about consoles then maybe he should use that instead, but I maintain that the Xin Mo should be avoided.

2. OP is building a bartop instead of a fightstick, so the multi-console feature is wasted.

Not at all.  It would be easy to include a video and controller port on the back of the cabinet.  You could plug a console in and flip a switch on the cabinet to work off of those ports instead of the internal PC.  The console could sit next to the cab or hidden under the table.

3. OP is using one joystick and 6 buttons, so not sure where the "for each player" part comes in.  The P2 Coin/Start buttons allow for alternating 2 player games.

You're right, brain fart on my part there.  Wait no, now he wants to make it 2 player, lol.

-

I was thinking of mentioning Logitech speakers too.  Some are fairly decent quality for their size.

I would say to use the largest cones you can fit in your limited space, as there's no substitute for cone size when it comes to creating full sound.  If you mount a cone directly to a circular hole in the cabinet you may get a better sound by using the whole cabinet as a speaker box rather than using the small speaker boxes they come in.

Whatever amp and speakers you use, you can run the speaker wires through a two channel volume pot to create a nice panel mounted volume knob.  If the system came with it's own knob, you can have that hidden somewhere and use it to control the max volume available from the panel knob.  That'll keep guests from turning it up too high and blowing a speaker or something.

-


One final question -- What types of games do you plan on playing most?  (It may influence your choice on the joystick.)

+1

PL1

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 03:54:43 pm »
After looking at the link you provided below I am thinking about doing a 2 player bartop.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120194.msg1274381.html#msg1274381

Whatever you do, don't look at this link, then.   ;D


Scott
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 03:59:16 pm by PL1 »

jmarket

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 04:19:16 pm »
WOW that build is crazy!!! I think I will leave that alone...

So if I choose to go two player what encoder do you guys recommend?

Would it be worth putting a button on each side for a pinball type game or would it require more than just flipper buttons for a pinball game?

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2012, 05:13:00 pm »
WOW that build is crazy!!! I think I will leave that alone...

So if I choose to go two player what encoder do you guys recommend?

Would it be worth putting a button on each side for a pinball type game or would it require more than just flipper buttons for a pinball game?

Visual Pinball and Future Pinball were originally designed to be played on a keyboard and they're easier to configure for use with a keyboard-type encoder like the I-Pac.

Stop by VPForums.org to get the programs and related files (there is also an installation guide -- follow it step-by-step for best results) and a few WS or 4:3 tables to check out.  The one thing that may limit you is that some of the high-res tables can bog down with just onboard video.

As far as the number of flipper buttons, 1 on each side is enough for many games, but others have upper flippers and ~8 tables have Magnasave.  The good news is that none of them have both Magnasave and upper flippers, so the absolute most you need is:
* 2 flipper buttons per side -- if you want to play any of the Magnasave tables, I can show you how to wire upper flipper and Magnasave to 1 button or edit the scripts to change the required keystroke
* 3 nudge buttons -- left, right, front (Z, /, space) -- Optional but very useful
* ball launcher/plunger button (Enter)

For the flipper buttons, since you'll probably decide to go with the I-Pac encoder, you might want to use Ultimarc's GoldLeaf buttons.


Scott

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2012, 08:39:15 pm »
OK. Decided to stay with 1 Player setup. Placed my order and hopefully this will get me started. I decided to not order the trackball. If I missed anything let me know. I will try to find speakers here at a local store.

QTY1  Xin Mo 1 player Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3

QTY6  White IL Concave Pushbutton PSL-L Pushbuttons: White Microswitch Force: 20 Gram Microswitch Upgrade

QTY1  Black IL Concave Pushbutton PSL-L Pushbuttons: Black Microswitch Force: 20 Gram Microswitch Upgrade

QTY1  Black IL 1 Player Imprint Pushbutton PSL-L Pushbuttons: Black Microswitch Force: 20 Gram Microswitch Upgrade 

QTY1  Black IL 2 Player Imprint Pushbutton PSL-L Pushbuttons: Black Microswitch Force: 20 Gram Microswitch Upgrade

QTY1  PAS-ILEJ-Black Black IL Eurostick Joystick (aka Happ Competition) 

QTY10  Jamma Board PCB Feet 

QTY2 Led Pushbutton With Black and White Insert Button Surround: Regular
     Pushbuttons: White
     Microswitch Force: 20 Gram Microswitch Upgrade
     LED Colors: Default Color(Same As Button)
     Black and White Insert: Coin
     Voltage: 12 V DC

QTY1 Led Pushbutton With Black and White Insert Button Surround: Regular
     Pushbuttons: White
     Microswitch Force: 20 Gram Microswitch Upgrade
     LED Colors: Default Color(Same As Button)
     Black and White Insert: Pause
     Voltage: 12 V DC

QTY1  5/8" Cam Lock for an Arcade Machine (15mm)

If anyone has good bartop cabinet plans please post.

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 09:42:51 pm by jmarket »

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2012, 11:18:57 pm »
Guess you didn't pick up any of that lag stuff?  Oh well, to each his own...

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2012, 11:44:23 pm »
Degenatron has plans here that might work.

Here is HaRuMaN's modded version.


Scott

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 07:26:48 pm »
Was looking for a bartop cabinet with no luck. Came across this NFL Blitz 2000 Gold for $50. The game does not work but the coin mechanism works.
Had to shrink the picture and lower the quality to get it to upload.

Let me know what you think
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 07:30:28 pm by jmarket »

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2012, 07:36:40 pm »
HOLY MOTHER OF MARQUEE AREA

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2012, 08:04:24 pm »
HOLY MOTHER OF MARQUEE AREA

CoryDee - I think we found where the marquee retainers you tried on your latest bartop will fit.  :duckhunt


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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2012, 08:33:51 pm »
So what do you think about the price for the cabinet?

Might need some help getting controls and everything working on this thing. I know I will be ordering some parts eventually.


https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9Znv5xygW9NTzlVbHNaSGEwYlU
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9Znv5xygW9NUlUyNHlQVGxmLUk
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9Znv5xygW9NbTJvYlNpenJNY3c
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9Znv5xygW9NckNxODRBaktPa0U
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 08:36:38 pm by jmarket »

jmarket

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2012, 09:02:22 pm »
The guy did say that it comes with some crazy joysticks but he had some old school joysticks he will give me.

I found this   http://urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html


PL1

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2012, 09:05:08 pm »
I figured the price made it a no-brainer as long as it is a form factor that you can use.

Are you thinking about restoring it or MAMEing it?

Not sure how rare/collectible this one is.   :dunno


Scott

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2012, 09:07:13 pm »
Planning on MAMEing it.

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2012, 09:12:03 pm »
Thats some pretty tall cabinet right there!  :o

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2012, 09:18:47 pm »
Why are you still posting?

Go get it!   :cheers:

Just make sure there are no loose parts before you transport it.
One guy went to load a cab and didn't notice the monitor wasn't bolted in.  *crash*  *shatter*  :badmood:


Scott

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2012, 09:23:27 pm »
Getting it from a place that supplies arcade games to businesses and they are only open from 8-5 so I have to pick it up tomorrow. Didnt have a truck when I went to look at it today.

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2012, 10:02:57 pm »
I think its a wise choice to go with the upright cab.

I hate to add to all you have to think about here, but I noticed you're planning on using a competition joystick but you mentioned wanting to play classics and mentioned some 4-way games. The comp is strictly 8 way and even though some of other happ/il sticks claim 4 or 8 way, they are not really.

You may wanna consider one of the switchable sticks

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2012, 10:25:01 pm »
HOLY MOTHER OF MARQUEE AREA

CoryDee - I think we found where the marquee retainers you tried on your latest bartop will fit.  :duckhunt


Scott

 :laugh2:

Are you planning on making any modifications to it? In terms of height...... :-\

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2012, 10:38:52 pm »
Yeah once I get it home I will be looking at different things that I can do. If you see the speakers are pretty large and then the marquee above that. I will probably look at using the speaker section for the speakers and marquee. Hopefully I can replace that speaker panel with long skinny speakers and then putting a marquee above the speakers in the same panel. That would remove the current large marquee that is on top now. Any other suggestions?

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2012, 11:13:49 pm »
Yeah once I get it home I will be looking at different things that I can do. If you see the speakers are pretty large and then the marquee above that. I will probably look at using the speaker section for the speakers and marquee. Hopefully I can replace that speaker panel with long skinny speakers and then putting a marquee above the speakers in the same panel. That would remove the current large marquee that is on top now. Any other suggestions?

Sounds like a plan. Only thing I could suggest is use the behemoth marquee for something else.....Perhaps flip it over and use it as a Jukebox  :dunno

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2012, 06:39:50 am »
Dont know anything about building a jukebox

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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2012, 08:23:07 pm »
OK guys help me with a parts list... I am new and this is my first project.

Im thinking I-Pac4?

Can I use the coin mechanism as coin buttons?

Please recommend buttons, joysticks, etc......   


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Re: New and looking to build a bartop cabinet
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2012, 10:32:06 pm »
OK guys help me with a parts list... I am new and this is my first project.

Im thinking I-Pac4?

Can I use the coin mechanism as coin buttons?

Please recommend buttons, joysticks, etc......

The following is based on you still wanting to play mostly the older classics, but keeping ~6 buttons for P1 and P2 so you can play fighting games, too.

The first question at this stage is do you still want/need a 4 player setup.

There are lots of threads where people build 4 player setups, only to realize several years later that P3 and P4 positions were only used a few times.

One possible compromise is to build a 2 player panel and use a couple of Neutrik USB feedthrus so you can plug in gamepads for P3 and P4  (or specialized controllers like a Star Wars yoke) as needed.

If you decide to keep it a 4-player setup, there's also the Lono2 as an encoder option.

Using the coin mech as coin buttons - Easy to do.  In addition, if you use the I-Pac, you can also use "shifted" functions to coin-up if you don't have tokens at that moment -- two ways to git 'er done.

As far as joysticks go, you can either do 8-way sticks and a dedicated 4-way OR 4/8-way switchables.

There are automated switching sticks like Ultimarc's ServoStik or manually changed like GGG's Omni2 or Paradise's Sanwa JLW in battop or balltop.

I chose these four examples because they are basically the same basic stick base IIRC with any extra features or refinements provided by the vendor.

Your best bet is to start by reading the threads on "which joystick is best" -- Be ready for some real  :hissy and  :whap that should give you a solid foundation of pros and cons for making an informed decision that you will be happy with.

There are several threads that compare and review buttons as well.

In summary:
4-player or 2-player panel?
4-way dedicated stick or switchables?
Read reviews/other threads.


Scott