Ultimarc vs. Hagstrom

[snekse]

If you were building a CP similiar to the Slik Stik Quad which encoder would you choose and why?  What are the Pros / Cons of each?  Would your choice change if the CP design was different?

[allroy1975]

I would think most people have one or the other.  
I LOVE my Ultimarc but have never used the Hagstrom, so I feel bad voting against it.  I'm sure a lot of people love theirs.

I have a 4 Player CP and wasn't even aware of the Hagstrong when i made my CP.  

Allroy

[Nailz]

I LOVE my Hagstrom, and like Allroy says, I can't vote against the IPac as I have heard great things but never owned one.

The pro's of my Hagstrom KE-72:

1.  well, 72 connections for 1  thing  
2.  easy to set up
3.  I have NEVER had a single problem with it

con's

a bit spendy in comparison to the IPac

FYI, I also own the ME-4, the equivalent to the Opti-Pac, and it is awesome as well, easy interface to Oscars spinners, and my Happ trackball.  Again, never a single problem with it.

[MinerAl]

My cab is based on a Mac (because it was the fastest surplus computer I had lying around).  The only USB encoder is the iPac, so the only encoder I can use is the iPac.

As for Ultimarc vs. Hagstrom, I'd say it's one of those Ford vs. Chevy things.  They both get you to work, but the headlight switches are in different places.  

I really like the other things available from Ultimarc, like the Opti-pac and T-Sticks,  I pretty much got all my controls, wiring, and encoders in one delivery.

[snekse]

As for Ultimarc vs. Hagstrom, I'd say it's one of those Ford vs. Chevy things.  They both get you to work, but the headlight switches are in different places.  

I guess that's my point.  They both have a fan base (though it seems Ultimarc's is slightly larger) and I want to know why people went with the one they did.  Is there one feature that you really wanted that one of the companies just didn't provide?  

Like if you were planning on building a massive 12 player cabinet and you just really felt that you needed those 72 inputs :-)  When you were going through the decision process something had to sway you to one side or the other.  For most Ultimarc owners I'm guessing it's either price or convenience (if they ordered other stuff as well).  I read something that gave a pretty compelling argument for Hagstrom as well, but I just can't remember what it was.  

That's why I stated my question so specifically.  I know they both have their place and I didn't want it to become a popularity contest.  I'm interested in logical reasoning on why someone might choose one over the other.  Right now I'm leaning towards Ultimarc for price reasons.  I'll need an iPac and an OptiPac (Slik Stik Quad wannabe).  Plus Hagstom's descriptions just weren't that clear to me for some reason....

So any additional feedback that anyone can provide would be greatly aspirated.  Or if you know of a comparison review....

[SirPoonga]

If I was going to build  large panel I'd go with the mk64 (www.mk64.com/ron/).  It supports LS-30s and has a shift function.

[snekse]

If I was going to build  large panel I'd go with the mk64 (www.mk64.com/ron/).  It supports LS-30s and has a shift function.

Interesting....so the Ultimarc and Hagstrom's don't support the LS-30's?

As for the shift, I know the I-PAC has a shift function and I'm pretty sure the Hagstrom's have that as well.  One thing that does interest me is USB connectors.  It just seems more clean to me and to be able to use a hub to plug a crap load of stuff into is a nice benefit.

[TalkingOctopus]

I have also had a good experience with the hagstrom encoder, but I have nothing else to compare it too.  

I have a ke72-t, and while expensive, it was very easy to wire and program.  It performs great and their customer service was outstanding too.  

[eightbit]

What about the keywiz?

Cheaper than an ipac and more inputs than the 2player ipac. Hasn't been around as long as ultimarc or hagstrom but has a good reputation for customer support.

http://groovygamegear.com

[RacerX]

Speaking as somebody who has a Hagstrom LP24 and and Opti-pac, I can say that I love both.  Each one does the job I ask it to do and does it well.

If I were starting from scratch, I would probably go I-pac because I like the screw terminals.

[Sasquatch!]

I have the Hagstrom KE72-T, and it works flawlessly.  The thing that I like about it over the IPAC is that keyboard encoding and optical encoding are all built on the same board.  The prices between the two are comporable - especially once you factor in shipping from Ultimarc (if you live in the US).

Although, the screw terminals on the Ultimarc products are pretty nice.  With the Hagstrom products  you either have to use a cut IDE ribbon cable or purchase their "breakout board" separately.

[EggZilla]

Like most of us, I have and adore one product (the I-Pac/Opti-pac combo) and so cannot comment on whether it beats out the keywiz, Haegstrom model, or any other encoder. However, I CAN tell you why I went with the Ultimarc stuff. Here are what I remember of my reasons, in descending order of importance.

1. Andy Warne's reputation for fairness and prompt, personal customer support is legendary. Plus, he's a regular here. If you read around this board, you'll notice there are a few vendors: Andy, Kelsey, Bob Roberts ... who are always helping out. And there are a lot of stories about how they've gone out of their way to help people. These are the guys whom I would support even if their products weren't the best fit for my cab, because they're geniunely great people. The rest of the world could learn a lot from these fellows' business practices.

2. The product is very heavily used. In reading this board, it became clear to me that I could find plenty of help here, should I need it.

3. As Racer X mentioned, those screw terminals rock - do other encoders not have them?

4. Flexibility. Between the shift function, its programmability, and the ability to hook it up either USB or Serial (my choice), this seemed a great match.

5. Price. At the time at least, I believe the Ultimarc stuff was among the more affordable options.

There may have been other reasons, and it's likely the other products share some of these features in one degree or another. But this was my two cents. The good thing is, the simple fact that this thread exists is evidence that there are multiple great choices available to us. How sweet is that?

Peace!

EggZ

[RandyT]

...Plus, he's a regular here. If you read around this board, you'll notice there are a few vendors: Andy, Kelsey, Bob Roberts ... who are always helping out. And there are a lot of stories about how they've gone out of their way to help people. These are the guys whom I would support even if their products weren't the best fit for my cab, because they're geniunely great people. The rest of the world could learn a lot from these fellows' business practices.

Yeah, that darn KeyWiz guy never helps anybody  

But seriously, I would hope that most people wouldn't use this as their #1 rational in making their decisions on what to buy for their project.  How warm and fuzzy are you going to feel that you supported a "nice guy" when things don't do what you want them to?  I hope nobody is doing that with me...I couldn't live with the guilt

When talking about the people you mentioned (with the possible exception of Kelsey...I even think he's mostly a nice guy.  Do you even break even?   j/k), you are talking about real businesses whose goal is still to make money.  There are politics and decision making at all levels of a business, even at the "mom and pop" scale.  You get to see the faces you are allowed to see, and usually you see those faces for a reason.  Unless you personally know the characters in the play, you don't really know whether an individual took that return because a) He was a nice guy, b) He knew that he was having QC issues and didn't tell you so he could protect his reputation, or c) knew you were a vocal participant in the groups he serves and was hoping for "good press".

This is not to say that anyone mentioned here specifically has anything other than "nice guy" motives, but there's no point in being naive when laying out your money.

So base your buying decisions on what you really need and how much you trust the individuals to 1: Send what you ordered in "as advertised" and working condition, 2: be able to help you out of a situation if you have a problem, and 3: have a policy for when #2 goes south, and it turns out to be a compatibility or QC issue with the product.  Taking a product back when it doesn't work for a customer, through no fault of theirs, isn't a "nice" thing to do....it's the only thing to do.

All this being said, I don't think anyone will have a single problem with any regulars on this board in these regards.

RandyT

[cyro]

I have researched encoders for 3 months before making my purchase.  I went with the KeyWiz for various reasons.  KeyWiz definitely rules.  Randy T is really helpful.

cyro

[snekse]

I went with the KeyWiz for various reasons.  

Do you mind sharing those various reasons  

[cyro]

Hello snekse, Sorry I was in a hurry the night I wrote that so I didn't post any reasons.  I knew someone would ask  My original intent when building my MAME machine was to buy an X-Arcade, strip it and use the controls so I didn't  have to go through the hassle (so I thought) of programming my own controls.  At this stage I obviously didn't understand how the keyboard encoders interfaced with the computer and MAME.  When I came across Randy T's site (www.groovygamegear.com) i'll admit, I was pulled in by the colorful site and nifty graphics.  This got me reading and he did a really good job of explaining how the KeyWiz keyboard emulator worked and how it would integrate into my build.  I was no longer intimidated by putting together my own controls and immediately started researching all the available emulators.  My cousin and I who are doing simultaneous MAME builds debated the different emulators and finally decided on the KeyWiz for various reasons.  

1.  Price
2.  Number of inputs (32)
3.  The Shizaaam! feature
4.  Quality of the KeyWiz programming software
5.  The pictures of the product almost do it justice in that it looks like a quality board.  In reality it is THE VERY BEST quality.  Very heavy duty, very small size.  Everything is professionally done here, no cut corners, cobble jobs, no sloppy soldering and the wire connectors are the best you could ask for.  push your wire in, lightly tighten the set screw and it'll hold tight enough to swing from.

Price is listed first and is what initially got us seriously looking at it but it was a combination of price and inputs that really made it attractive.  The thing that made me say I need a KeyWiz and wouldn't use another keyboard emulator if they paid me to use it was the fact that I could wire up the Shizaaam! function to be used with a single keypress instead of having to hold a key to perform a shift function.  Essentially that gives you another 24 direct buttons.  Sure, they really shouldn't be used for gameplay buttons (due to reasons I won't go into, check www.groovygamegear.com for more info) but they are perfect for administration purposes.  I used 10 Shizaaam! keys in total along with 31 direct inputs.  My dedicated Shizaaam! keys are as follows:   2 for 1 and 2 player coin door, 2 for 1 and 2 player start and 6 for administrative buttons (esc, tab etc).  Another plus was that Randy was REALLY helpful and answered my questions quickly.  He offers EXCELLENT customer service.  Let me know if you have any questions.

[Dexter]

From personal experience I can recommed Ultimarc. I've had a few orders from Andy, and they've been delivered fast, packaged well and all working perfectly.

Also, his after sales support is second to none.

Dexter

[hazydave]

As I'm building my own controller, I can only comment on what I looked for (and didn't find). I'm only really interested in a 2-player setup, and I'm building in a keyboard drawer (a quasi-clever hide-away thing). So I need the basic support for two players. For 100% compatibility (especially given than many MAME computers are hand-me-downs), as well as latency issues (my real job is doing digital radio control stuff, latency matters), I want PS/2 interfacing, so that's three PS/2 ports: one in, two out.


For each player, I have a joystick and 8 buttons. All these need to be totally independent, and if possible, interrupt driven, though polling will probably work.

Next, I like pinball games, so that's two more buttons, for flippers on the side.

Now, for the non-gaming buttons, I have real coin drops, player 1/2 select, a pause button, a "cheat" coin drop, etc.  So I put in 8 buttons that might block each other, but have no effect on the gaming buttons. One of these could function as a shift, if I decide that's useful.

The kicker was the opticals... I love tempest. I had to have a spinner, and if a spinner, why not a trackball too. So my controller supports one each of these. To do these right, you either need wicked fast polling or hardware counters, or you'll get aliasing (the ball/spinner going backwards, that old "wheel on film" thing). So I'm doing these in hardware. I can't comment on the performance of other optical interfaces for MAME cabinets, but pretty much every mouse chip is not going to sample fast enough.

Cost wise, I didn't do this to save money, really. But I'm coming out at about $20-$25 each to build six controllers. Two are used immediately -- I'm doing this with a friend of mine (I'm doing the HW and firmware, he's providing the MAME on Linux setup).

Hopefully I haven't missed anything...

[RandyT]

Ummm....not that it makes much difference or anything, but if you are going to set up a poll, it's not very accurate to add choices *after* everyone voted already.  I'm surprised the board allows one to even do that.

If you are going to ask which is the better between 2 choices and then add 2 more after 25 people answer, those 25 answers probably would have been different.

RandyT

[snekse]

Ummm....not that it makes much difference or anything, but if you are going to set up a poll, it's not very accurate to add choices *after* everyone voted already.  I'm surprised the board allows one to even do that.

If you are going to ask which is the better between 2 choices and then add 2 more after 25 people answer, those 25 answers probably would have been different.

RandyT

  Good point.  I'm going to clear the results.  I think the thread itself gives enough info to help people.

[Joel]

I truly enjoy my keywiz.  I looked about and saw that a lot of the other manufacturers were very expensive.  Not to knock them, I have no experience with them but I found that my purchase of the keywiz to be a great experience.  The 'wiz is small, easy to configure and well constructed.  I created a two player with 2 8 way joysticks, 1 4 way joystick, 6 buttons each and 4 utility buttons.  All works top notch and it was a BREEZE to hookup and setup.  Love the Shaazaam key and I then have all my other utility functions at my fingertips.
My only suggestion would be the configuration software, unless I missed something, I did not like the fact that it installs itself on your C: drive no matter what.  Sorry, I am a developer myself and would just like a installer.    That is really not a problem, just a preference.
I love this thing and would recommend it.  I got it promptly, it was well packed, and works like a champ!