Has anyone tried this before? (XBOX as PC)

[JoeB]

With the cost of XBOX's going down (you should be able to get a used one for dirt cheap) why not use it as the guts for your MAME machine???

Here's some advantages that I can think of:

- Has build in upgradable hard drive
- Already has NTSC/PAL output
- Hacking the controller to the joystick should be a piece of cake
- Already has MAME emulation (MAME-X or MAMEOX)
- Can play CD, MP3, VCD, SVCD, DVD, whatever on your arcade box
- Can play XBOX games on your arcade machine
- other goodies

All you'll need is an XBOX, modchip and off you go.  As far as I know there are legal XBOX mod chips that use a Linux BIOS that allow you to boot Linux on it, or you can do other stuff too...

The alternative is to build a good PC with a good video card with something like the IPAC and you can easily spend a lot more $$$.

What do you think? anyone tried this out?

[shmokes]

Seems like a pretty good idea to me.  A lot of good X-box games would play on it too.

[abrannan]

<sarcasm>
Gee, I don't know...  Most people on this board aren't too comfortable with opening things up and soldering things inside them.

</sarcasm>

Actually, I don't know of any projects of the top of my head that use this, but it is a darn good idea.  It will be even better after the holiday season when the Xbox and PS2 hit their next price drops.  (No, I don't have any insider information. I'm just guessing that Microsoft and Sony will try to milk their current price point through one more holiday season.)  

Actually, I may end up using this idea on a future project.  But seeing as I've got three projects lined up in front of me, Xboxen may be $60 by the time I get around to it.  

[allroy1975]

Xboxen may be $60 by the time I get around to it

is that a brian regan joke?

[eightbit]

Mame on the xbox works pretty good. You can't play all the roms but you can still play most of the favorites.

I'm working on a sit down cab (used to be mach3) that I'm putting an xbox and 19' tv into. It will be designed mostly for xbox racing games but I'm also planning to play mame racing games and other xbox games as well. The xbox lends itself pretty well to this application.

The xbox is small and easy to mount. I think another type of cab that it would work really well in would be a bartop mini cab.

[Dave_K.]

The xbox is small and easy to mount. I think another type of cab that it would work really well in would be a bartop mini cab.

Just a warning, people forget the Xbox is prone of overheating and crashing (hard).  This is what happens to most of the demo xbox displays that do not have proper ventilation (they stick them in this clear plastic display box).  So for bartop projects, make sure to mount the xbox next to a cutout over the fan, and for a standup cab, you'd probably need to add a can in the bottom and vent at the top.

[jerryjanis]

Does anybody know approx. where the XBox stops being fast enough for Mame?

I find with my PIII 600 Mhz that it plays everything up to and including Street Fighter Vs. XMen, SF Alpha 3, the Metal Slug series.  It will not play Street Fighter the Movie, the Mortal Kombat games, NBA Jam, (etc.).  How does the XBox compare?

[Howard_Casto]

I hate to be dragged back into this, but this is why people don't use an xbox.  

A.  It only has 64 mb of memory, which means that 80% of your mame games made after 1984 can't be played.  

B.  Although some will tell you it's legal to put linux on your xbox it's not.  Modchips, any mod chip is illegal because it's circumventing the copy protection of the xbox. Some of the cromwell bioses are "legal", but the act of installing a chip which allows the operation of unsigned code (read ANY mod chip) is illegal.  And although linux is the "least illegal" route the added overhead of linux on the box makes mame run even less games.  The only good emulators for the xbox (including mame ports) are that ones that are stand alone and use the hacked msxdk, which is extremely illegal.  I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just making you aware that you are breaking the law.  Besides, what difference would the legality of modding the box be when 90% of the mame roms out there are illegal to possess?  

C.  The xbox is loud and has overheat issues in some cases.  It's not a big deal, but something you should be aware of.  

D.  Using a xbox for your emulator box means never being able to use keyboard encoders, mice or lightguns.  Your only real option is to hack xbox controllers.  I know a few of your are thinking "but isn't the xbox's ports usb?"  Well, yes they are, but unless your running linux (which I've already explained why you shouldn't)  none of the emulators applications, or xbox games support these input devices.  They may in the future, but by then it'll be cheaper just to buy a little pc.  



To finish up, I think xbox hacking is great and I do it myself  but I'm aware of how illegal it is and how impractical it is for most projects.  The only good use I've found for my hacked xbox is as a media player for the living room.  Just a heads up.... it's an idea, but it's not necessarily a new one, or a good one.  

Hope that puts a few things into perspective.  

[Lilwolf]

1) people have been doing it...

2) XBox doesn't have good support for arcademonitors or vga monitors... makes it a little harder.

3) They aren't cheap... For emulation anyway.  They are a 733mhz processor with a great video card.  But the video card isn't used for emulation... For the 150 you can get a can get a 2.4mhz athlon (99), 256mg ram ($25) and Radeon VE ($11) or cheap TNT card..

And you will get 3x the emulation processing then the xbox.  

IE, GREAT for 3d games... Not so great (but better then most consoles) for emulation purposes...

[djohng]

I guess the real question is, if people are using the XBox, how are they accomplishing emulation with the limitations (ie keyboard, mouse, arcade interface, VGA, etc...)?

Granted; many of the people that visit this message board are way more intelligent when it comes to PC, and arcade games, but I think there is a real misconception about the Xbox.

I need to get my website up, and show you the possiblities, with the XBox and arcade emulation.  Also, everyone knows, that modding an Xbox is not illegal, but using the roms, without owning the games is.  That being said...

The Xbox, I use in my arcade cabinet is loaded.
Hardware:
1) 320G hard-drive; yes it is possible to break the 137G limit with the proper software tools.  I have a programmable modchip,  but you don't need hardware modchips anymore with XBox, there are software mods..but that's a discussion elsewhere.
2) VGA connection for the U-3100 arcade monitor inside the cab. (from www.xboxvga.com)
3) Wireless keyboard and mouse support. (using a xbox controller to USB connection $5.) Xbox controller ports are really USB ports.  I also use a lightgun for the shooters! (recent support in the xbox emulators shows real promise.)
4) True arcade controls using the X-Arcade development board for <$50, and the Xbox X-Arcade interface $19.
5) Wireless on/off switch, wired into the Xbox power, so that I don't have to open the cabinet up. $10 wireless doorbell.
6) Network and FTP access. Dolby 5.1 stereo
 
Common misconception is crashing and overheating as Howard mentioned above.  I have never had these issues.  The software menu, I have installed monitors the temperatures, I have never seen anything to alarm me...maybe others are different??

Software;

1) MameoX version 0.67
2) KawaksX which runs all Neo-Geo/CPS1 and CPS2; no limitation on the 64M; as it uses virtual memory.  Games run at full speed
2a) Modified version of KawaksX running latest Neo games (MS4/ KOF2002/etc.)
3) Daphne Laser games, including Dragon's Lair...totally awesome!!
4) ..and of course a mis-mash of SNES/N64/NES/2600/C-64/AppleII/Genesis/PlayStation/DOS/ etc. emulators.
5) A few XBox racing/arcade games.
6) Media Center with favorite tunes.
6) Customize menu system (MXM) with videos showing each item above in action.

I run every arcade game and more, than I use to run on my PC Cab.  The comment above about the memory limitation is not true, after the latest KawaksX came out.

I learned everything regarding my x-project from www.xbox-scene.com, and their forums, and the experiences from my PC arcade/emulation project.

I need to get a website up, with pictures and a writeup.  I think many of you will be impressed, with the possibilities.  

Overall costs were lower than my PC cabinet project.  Xbox $179; xtra mods/ chip $50, USB-Xbox cable $5, wireless on/off $10, x-arcade board is same as keyboard encoder, but the interface for the encoder is $19. VGA cable $50; Total about $315.

I used the 320G HD, U-3100, wireless keyboard/mouse and arcade buttons from my old project.

Reply or email, if you have questions.

djohng

[eightbit]

I've got 2 modded xbox's. Both are quieter than most pc's and neither has overheating problems. I've also chipped another half dozen boxes for friends and family and those don't over heat or make to much noise. When people say they make to much noise I wonder what they are comparing them to.

Its true theirs no spinners, no lightguns in mame, no trackballs and you can only play a certain percantage of the roms but in my experience it can play the games people want to play.

There are still people that claim Dos is the best OS for a mame cabinet, I say Dos like an xbox can fill a niche for some people. I know I'm excited to convert a sit down cab into a xbox driven cab mostly for xbox driving games but also for mame driving games.

Another thing the xbox does very well is play other console emulators.

Warning Opinion Alert
As far as legality I think its technically more legal to solder a chip into an xbox than it is to play roms that you don't own.

Its not a pc, it has different advantages and limitations.

[OSCAR]

I picked up a monitor from a guy's house, and he showed me his modded xbox that he was running MAME on.  I was actually quite impressed by how well the MAME games ran on it, although he was really into classic games and that's all he had loaded on it.  He was planning on using the xbox to power his MAME cab to play classics, and he also wanted to play his newer xbox games on the cab, too.

I thought it was a very interesting project and I know he was pretty happy with the setup.  Although I agree that you aren't going to be using the xbox to run all the games supported by MAME, I don't see why using it for just playing classics would be a problem.  If you jump into the project realizing that you aren't going to take 100% advantage of the games supported by MAME, I don't think you would be disappointed.  Obviously you wouldn't take an xbox approach if you were mainly interested in Arkanoid, Area51, etc.

[Howard_Casto]

Common misconception is crashing and overheating as Howard mentioned above.  I have never had these issues.  The software menu, I have installed monitors the temperatures, I have never seen anything to alarm me...maybe others are different??

It's not a misconception, the things I wrote are from personal experience.  The emulators crash a lot, particularly if you are storing your roms via a fileshare and it does overheat with extended play depending upon where you put it.  

Also something that you should note:  the way you wrote that you acted like you were actually using the mice and keyboards and lightguns for emulation.  I'm almost positive your not unless your doing it via linux.

As I stated, support isn't here yet, and already at this point it's cheaper to buy a barebones pc with similar specs.  

Again, It's an option, just not a very practical one at least as far as mame cabs go.  I made my mame cab a year or two ago with the idea of putting a modded xbox in it.  I've been waiting patiently until the day that this would be viable, but so far it still isn't.  So that should give others an idea or my perspective, I want it to be possible very badly, it just isn't yet.  

[djohng]

Howard, I don't store any the roms on a fileshare, so I can't comment on your issues, since I have a 320G drive running.  Emulators crashing...yes - I agree, on the early versions, but now many are very stable.  (At least, the ones I'm interested in.)

As far as a mouse and keyboard; I can tell you I'm not running Linux (sorry, yuck...too complicated for my MS brain..   )  I use the keyboard and mouse via a wireless USB and it works fine for the emulators that support keyboards, like the DOS 386 emulator.  

For the "arcade emulators"; I use the x-arcade development board for inputs, also has a serial keyboard input, but this is for a PC.

I feel that setting up a DOS based bare-bones PC, tends to be more difficult, than setting up an XBox Arcade.  And, running a network interface in DOS to transfer files is tricky.  The other option is Windows, but the boot-time..and the hiding the Windows interface is also an issue.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, I need to share pictures and the complete step-by-step guide on a website, and then you can judge for yourself...the old addage...seeing is believing...

Maybe, I can make you feel better that an XBox running arcade emulators in a cabinet, is closer and easier than you think..

Take care...

[Howard_Casto]

I hate to keep arguing with you, but the very latest versions of kawakx and mameox crash on me all the time.  It depends on how hard you push them, my guess is you aren't pushing very hard.

Also dos imo is a useless os and stupid choice for a platform so lets keep it out of the discussion.  Windows on the other hand shouldn't be downplayed because of graphics considering there isn't a multi-emulator front end for the xbox and even if there were, it probably wouldn't have full skinnability.  

[djohng]

I hate to keep arguing with you, but the very latest versions of kawakx and mameox crash on me all the time.  It depends on how hard you push them, my guess is you aren't pushing very hard.

Howard, I would NEVER argue with you!  What games crash KawakX; I tried MS4 and KOF02 in a modified version, and these work flawlessly...?!  I'll have to try the ones you tell me crash..

There are a few games that don't work in MAMEoX because of the 64M limitation, but with the KawakX use of VM, the limitation is going to be removed from MAMEoX EVENTUALLY (I hope =~)  I've tried many of the 90's games and they work...

[JoeB]

You can always add another 64MB of RAM to your XBOX and then all games will load problem free.

The only problem I see with the XBOX is the CPU.. games that require 1Ghz or faster will seem slow (unless you play around with the settings and start dropping frames).

But the advantages of the XBOX are there.. think of it as a Windows machine without windows.  Telnet/ftp for administration is all there.  As far as the gun, why wouldn't the regular TV (non-PC) gun that was just released work???  You can intercept the commands between the RCA NTSC output and your TV (if you use one inside your MAME machine).

If you use an arcade monitor.. hmmmm.. a bit more tricky.. get an NTSC -> RGB decoder.  I've seen many of them on eBay (ripped out of Dragon's Lair arcade machines.. since all those laser discs output was NTSC)

As far as any other controlls (spinner, trackball, etc) hacking a real XBOX controller might be the simplest thing.. I mean that's what many people use to play with in the first place.

Then again, this brings another good question.. why go to all the hastle in the first place?? The XBOX looks so nice, all you'll need to do is make a better controller and sit in your sofa in front of your 52" TV enjoying MAME.  

[eightbit]

Your not going to get some people to concede that there is at least a niche for xbox cab's. There are a significant number of people that have used dreamcast's in their cab and I don't remember those people getting bashed like this in this forum.  I don't think anyone could argue that a dreamcast would be a better mame platform.

I haven't seen the problems that others are reporting in this thread at least not to the extent where I consider it a problem. I know for a short period of time MS did not put a fan in their xbox's trying to save money and make them quieter. This was a big mistake because many of those did have heat problems. I've played mame and other emulators for hours at a time and never had it crash with a rom that it works with. I've had it crash on roms but only ones that don't work any way. I don't get my roms from a network path though. I play videos from a network path and have never had it crash doing that either. Could be the mod chips or the version of bios or the version of the programs. There are still a lot of factors that could cause the problems that are being complained about.

As far as heat goes though you shouldn't have to take any more precautions inside of a cab than you would have to with a pc.

[zero-one]

I have nothing important to add to this discussion.

I just look forward to seeing djohng's website. I'm very curious to see what's involved in getting an Xbox into a cab. I'm intrigued by the whole idea.

Power to the people that explore the possibilities!

[IceCold]

There are a significant number of people that have used dreamcast's in their cab and I don't remember those people getting bashed like this in this forum.  I don't think anyone could argue that a dreamcast would be a better mame platform.

In no way am I trying to say that an xbox wouldn't be good in a cab.  But I would like to point out that, when people used dreamcasts in their cab it was for the purpose of playing dreamcast arcade ports(marvel vs. capcom, gauntlet legends, etc.), not running the dreamcast mame emulator.  Often times people would also have a pc in their cab.  If somebody decided to use a dreamcast and wanted to run the dreamcast mame emulator and expected to run some of the newer games, I'm sure they would be told it's not a good idea either.  The point of a dreamcast in the cab is almost never to do anything but play dreamcast games.

[Ghoul]

3) They aren't cheap... For emulation anyway.  They are a 733mhz processor with a great video card.  But the video card isn't used for emulation... For the 150 you can get a can get a 2.4mhz athlon (99), 256mg ram ($25) and Radeon VE ($11) or cheap TNT card..

And you will get 3x the emulation processing then the xbox.  

Here's a nitpick for ya:

Your price doesn't include power supply or motherboard. Tack on quite a bit extra for those two items, plus interfaces.

[Lilwolf]

Actually it did include the motherboard...

But no power supplies... I actually didn't think about it since I have about 10 laying around.

The point being that within the same generic price range.. you are talking a MUCH better system for emulation...

not for 3d gaming though.

[djohng]

I just look forward to seeing djohng's website. I'm very curious to see what's involved in getting an Xbox into a cab. I'm intrigued by the whole idea.

Power to the people that explore the possibilities!

Well, since this discussion thread opened, it looks like a number of people are curious as how to implement an XBox into a cabinet.  Many people have utilized a dreamcast, but it really isn't the same thing, as an XBox is closer to a PC.

And since a number of people think using an XBox as the main "PC" in a cabinet is difficult, if not impossible, I decided to document my "BoxCade" project.

Hopefully, I can convince the nay-sayers, that this a viable; low-cost alternative to putting a high-end PC, and a I-PAC into a cabinet.

I've starting adding to my existing website, that documented the original Rally-X cabinet restoration project.  

I've added a few pages, documenting my frustrations with original PC project, and the reasons to the conversion to an XBox, as well as a simple tutorial for adding remote on/off capabilities with a wireless doorbell solution for $10.  (I couldn't keep opening the cabinet to turn the machine on! like the original restoration).

I'm not a website developer by any means, just a hobbyist like many on this board, so no joking about the site...

http://fp1.centurytel.net/retroarcade

-djohng

[djohng]

 

I just spent some time updating my website with the latest information on my boXcade project (XBox in an Arcade Cabinet).  The real reason for doing this is to explain to everyone that it's very possible with a little engineering and know-how to use an XBox instead of a PC.  

The website isn't as "crisp" as I would like it, but it gets the point across.

I'm still working on more pics of the cabinet and testing frame rates with the XBox emulators. (A few people have asked questions, like does "x or y game work..etc."

http://fp1.centurytel.net/retroarcade

BTW; if anyone wants the graphics/menu program or further details on "how to do -something-etc." please email me.

-Happy Holidays!
-Regards
djohng@centurytel.net

[Sprucemoose]

Link not working

[djohng]

I know.  It's the correct link, damn centurytel...their looking at it today 12/17...I should have it back online this evening.

Everything was working fine...then after posting on the board the link went down...go figure...phase of the moon thing...

[DeathMonk]

Why go through all the trouble of modding, finding all the software, having everything run without crashing, etc. when you could just put together a cheap PC for roughly the same price?

[djohng]

Why go through all the trouble of modding, finding all the software, having everything run without crashing, etc. when you could just put together a cheap PC for roughly the same price?

The same question could be asked of anyone who buys an encoder (I-PAC), hacks a bunch of controllers, etc. and tries to run it all the emulators on a PC in a cab.

All I'm offering is a different, cheap, and stable alternative.

Besides, the cost was the about the same as buying a new "cheap" PC, an encoder, etc.   Modding your XBOX is so easy, my 3 year old could do it, and all of the software I use is available on one FTP site.

....and there's always the obvious....because I can....

The WEBSITE is back up for the rest of the people who are curious.

[DeathMonk]

I just built a complete computer on a pricewatch site for $196.75 shipped that can do more things and outperform an xbox when it comes to mame games.  Add the price of an I-PAC or hacking two 10 dollar gamepads..

Price:  $236.75 or $216.75

Xbox + modchip + extra controller = ~$230

END OF THREAD

[eightbit]

I just built a complete computer on a pricewatch site for $196.75 shipped that can do more things and outperform an xbox when it comes to mame games.  Add the price of an I-PAC or hacking two 10 dollar gamepads..

Price:  $236.75 or $216.75

Xbox + modchip + extra controller = ~$230

END OF THREAD

Its not really a PC vs. xbox thing as to which is better or which is cheaper. Many people already have xbox's that can serve multiple purposes. They can swap it in and out of the arcade cabinet a lot easier than you could move a PC.

You also need to compare apples to apples if you want to make comparisons. Does this PC of yours output to a tv? If not then you need to add the additional cost of a tv out card.

When you say complete do you mean with EVERYTHING. Keyboard, mouse, floppy, hard drive, memory and the 20 other peices that you need.

Your PC can not do everything that a xbox can. It won't play xbox games. Your PC will not output to a tv with as nice a picture as the xbox does even with a tv out card. Does your $200 PC play dvd's?

The Xbox can't do everything your PC can either.

[IceCold]

Your PC can not do everything that a xbox can. It won't play xbox games.

I definitely agree.  There are some xbox games that would play very good with arcade controls.  If you were going to put an xbox in there anyways, why not also use it instead of  a PC.  I(personally) wouldn't put an xbox in an arcade JUST for emulation, but I would consider using one for xbox games and emulation.  In fact, I've even thought of just using a Dreamcast for emulation and Dreamcast games(maybe to put together a super cheap  cab).  And xbox is a much better emulation machine.(though my dreamcast solution would be MUCH cheaper)

[eightbit]

Another option is to forget emulation entirely and just play xbox games. Thats what I'm planning to do in this cab.

[DeathMonk]

Its not really a PC vs. xbox thing as to which is better or which is cheaper. Many people already have xbox's that can serve multiple purposes. They can swap it in and out of the arcade cabinet a lot easier than you could move a PC.

You also need to compare apples to apples if you want to make comparisons. Does this PC of yours output to a tv? If not then you need to add the additional cost of a tv out card.

When you say complete do you mean with EVERYTHING. Keyboard, mouse, floppy, hard drive, memory and the 20 other peices that you need.

Your PC can not do everything that a xbox can. It won't play xbox games. Your PC will not output to a tv with as nice a picture as the xbox does even with a tv out card. Does your $200 PC play dvd's?

The Xbox can't do everything your PC can either.

You're absolutely right..  But read the title of the thread "XBOX as PC".  So I was comparing an XBOX to a PC as a mame machine only.  The xbox in a driving cabinet is a great idea, though.

ps - The computer was complete but with no keyboard and mouse.