We need to bail on EPS and AI filetypes for distribution

[Jakobud]

There are just too many people who want to download and use these great pieces of work that we are submitting who don't have easy access to any software that opens EPS or AI files. People need to be able to open and print this stuff.  

Yeah people can try gimp but most the time EPS's dont really come up in it.  Obviously lots of people can't afford Illustrator. Even the trial version is like 100megs to download or something.  I don't think there are that many other viable alternatives.  We need an open and free alternative that will give people quick and easy access to the graphics.

Lately, I have been doing a lot of research on the SVG filetype.  It's called a Scalable Vector Graphic.  They are a non-proprietary filetype (i.e. free), they match the quality of EPS's and AI's and are equivalent in filesize to AI files.  They are open source XML based graphics so free viewers are emerging and SVG importers for editing software is beginning to appear.

SVG Advantages
1. Open source XML based...so its freely viewable for anyone
2. Equal quality to AI's and EPS's
3. Equal filesize to AI's and way smaller than EPS's
4. Free plugins and importers readily available
5. Interoperability with all Adobe products

SVG Disadvantages
1. Honestly I really don't see any disadvantages

Here are some image quality comparisons files for you to download and examine.  This is some Missle Command sideart I recently finished.  Note the filesizes...

http://www.jakobud.com/svg/missileCommandSideartLeft.svg  117kb
http://www.jakobud.com/svg/missileCommandSideartLeft.ai  242kb
http://www.jakobud.com/svg/missileCommandSideartLeft.eps  939kb
http://www.jakobud.com/svg/missileCommandSideartLeft.pdf  241kb

Excellent Adobe SVG browser plugins available here:
http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html
(available for all Windows OS's, Mac OS's, Linux, and Solaris in over a dozen languages for all browsers)

Adobe's SVG information
http://www.adobe.com/svg/main.html

What is SVG?
http://www.adobe.com/svg/overview/svg.html

Why use SVG?
http://www.adobe.com/svg/overview/whyuse.html

Anyways guys take a look at this.  This is obviously just a suggestion but I would highly suggest moving away from the AI and EPS thing.  We can already see that these vector graphics everyone is making are getting used a lot by people and if we used something more readily available than AI and EPS I think that even more people would be able and encouraged to use them

[Zzap]

Viewing is one thing, but editing is another...I'm not sure how far they've come in a year, but last year free SVG editors sucked ass, and Illustrator was still required for any decent editing.

[3dmacman]

In the newest version of illustrator (cs) svg is all but dropped from that application. The whole reason to use ai and eps is a compatibility issue. ai and eps formats have been around for a long time. If someone is serious about using illustrator or what not to open these files then just look on ebay and buy an old used copy of illustrator or photoshop. You don't have to use the latest software to open these files. I personally saves these files back to illustrator 5.0 for compatibility.  The whole reason for these formats is scaleability and editability.  SVG does have some advantages but it is pretty much fading from use.

[Nannuu]

I use Coreldraw for all of my vector graphics and it works great.  It's much cheaper than illustrator too.
It also imports EPS and AI files.

[Jakobud]

In the newest version of illustrator (cs) svg is all but dropped from that application.

Then how come you can save out SVG files from Illustrator?

How come Adobe has a big part of their website talking about the benefits of SVG and why people should use them if they are letting it die off at the same time?

Regarding the editing, first of all I'd really like to see how many people are really taking the artwork from that webpage and truely editing them.  I'm talking about going in and changing the colors or the vector paths.  I guarantee that 99% of the time, people are only wanting to take one or several of the vector images and put them into a single document, scale and place the pictures and then print out the final revision.....

Are people really "editing" the vector graphics?  I doubt it.  SVG is an "end result" format and unless I am mistaken, all the vector graphics on Mametrixreloaded archive are "end result" images.  We are not uploaded out 'works-in-progress' for people to edit and print....

I just want to make sure that as many people have access to use these vector graphics as possible. As long as we are distributing in a propietary format that requires $400 software we greatly limit our audience....  Not everyone has graphic design software to open and view these things.  The SVG thing is just a suggestion, but after a little research it is by far the best option out there.  Any other suggestions?

[tbombaci]

suggestion, but after a little research it is by far the best option out there.  Any other suggestions?

I found some shareware Vector Apps. See this thread.

[2600]

It's good that you are keeping an eye out on things like this, but seriously stick with EPS and AI.  SVG is just a little too new right now and from someone who has used it, the compatibility between programs is herendous.  The SVG can look totally different between programs.  Maybe in a couple years the switch would be good, but not now.  Plus, people would be switching from what is commonly used in the industry to the latest and greatest format, but the latest format is just not being as widely used right now.

EPS is a pretty common format. There are many programs that read it.  If people need a free viewer I suggest gsview  or ghostview amongst others.  This program has never failed me, also excellent for convertng any file to a pdf by the way just print to a file, open in gsview and convert.

[Frostillicus]

Looks promising, but to be honest I don't know a single person that uses that format.

If all people really do is just use the end-result of our vectorizing, then any decent layout program they use for their overlay, sideart, etc, will be able to import EPS and probably even AI.  I use photoshop, but doesn't PSP import EPS? And I bet a ton of other programs can use EPS - it's the industry standard, universal, catch-all, generic format for any graphics at all (but mainly vector).  Yeah it's huge file size, but it's highly compatible.

I like the attraction of the small file size of SVG, but it just hasn't caught on yet.  I'm willing to submit SVG's if that's what people want,  the file size of the SVGZ (compressed SVG) of that missile command artwork was only 68KB.  I can get behind that.

EDIT:  I just tried dragging that svg (and svgz) file into the photoshop space and it couldn't open it - if it doesn't open up in photoshop I wouldn't want to use it.

[zorg]

I fully agree with the fact that we should use free and open file format
SVG look's great and promising.  I'm volunter to batch produce the svg file for all the vector library if you ask me

but keep in mind that eps is a "de facto" standard and used by a lot of graphical programs.

and furthermore even if postcript / encapsulated postcript / pdf are proprietary language / file format file
descriptions for both of them are freely and publicly available from adobe
eg: url]http://partners.adobe.com/asn/developer/pdfs/tn/5002.EPSF_Spec.pdf

this is acceptable for me (even if I'm a free software zelote).
 
and last but not least as you pointed, most of us are using the vector library files "as is" but don't tweak them.
The main concern is to be abble to use those files in order to produce nice side art, marques etc.
know how can you  do this if you can't import the file in your favorite image editing program ?
without loosing quality  I don't know much about programs importing SVG files

that's why instead of dropping ai AND eps file FOR svg i suggest to add svg files to the cart and let
the users to choose wich format he wants to use.

[Captain Rotundo]

My 2c:  Stick with EPS.  I love SVG and there is lots of progress on SVG apps every day, (I run GNU/Linux exclusively and the two major desktops are slowly switching entirely to SVG for icons and what not, this will increase the availablity of SVG program I would think.  But EPS is a standard format that has good support cross platforms, and much more reliable support between programs, at least now.

I would avoid AI (obviously not being a windows or mac user I can't open it) but it is entirely proprietary and requires a very expensive program.

[3dmacman]

[quote author=Jakobud

 As long as we are distributing in a propietary format that requires $400 software we greatly limit our audience....  Not everyone has graphic design software to open and view these things.  The SVG thing is just a suggestion, but after a little research it is by far the best option out there.  Any other suggestions?

If someone is serious in using the vector artwork for their own, then they should invest some money in good software. I'm not talking illustrator or corel draw, just some decent shareware or abandonware. $30 for software isn't that bad when it comes right down to it. Besides look at the total investment in a cab and that is a drop in the bucket. If a lot of people prefer svg I would upload svg files too. But the whole reason to use eps and ai is the industry standard for software and printing too. Don't forget some print companies may not accept the svg format. Svg format is more for the web than it is print. Besides everyone should be able to open these files and not have any weird colorization or similar problems. That and SVG is sort of an end all result and we need to keep these graphics files for the !% that want to be able to edit the files.  

[Frostillicus]

Anyone else have trouble importing SVG files into photoshop (or other raster programs)??  Yes or now let me know, I haven't messed with it much.  

[Jakobud]

I agree with zorg that perhaps its better to simply add SVG files to the archive instead of replace the others.

I have figured out how to get SVG into Photoshop.  After reading stuff several different places it seems like Adobe hasn't made an SVG plugin for photoshop because Photosop is made to work with Raster formats instead of vector.  That sort of surprises me considering that EPS's can go in fine (of course they are rasterized in the process). Anyways, here's what I have figured out so far:

Open the SVG in your browser. Zoom in however much you want to (btw zoom in using, CTRL, zoom out using CTRL+SHIFT and pan using ALT). Then right click on the SVG and click "Copy SVG".  Then open photoshop create a new blank canvas and then paste.  There you go.  

However the SVG is rasterized in the process so I'm not totally sure as to why you would want to do this.  Also it seems that when you zoom in different amounts, it will change #1 what you copy/paste (you only get what you have on the screen at the time maybe?) and #2 what quality you are gonna rasterize it at.  I'm gonna keep playing with this and try to make some sense of it.

I'm not sure why there are no SVG plugins for photoshop yet.  Maybe there is a third party one out there somewhere.  It's an open XML format so I figure it is only a matter of time.

[SirPoonga]

Interesting, there are alot of things going to xml.  I know there is a 3D model format that is in XML.

[Frostillicus]

Open the SVG in your browser. Zoom in however much you want to (btw zoom in using, CTRL, zoom out using CTRL+SHIFT and pan using ALT). Then right click on the SVG and click "Copy SVG".  Then open photoshop create a new blank canvas and then paste.  There you go.  

However the SVG is rasterized in the process so I'm not totally sure as to why you would want to do this.  Also it seems that when you zoom in different amounts, it will change #1 what you copy/paste (you only get what you have on the screen at the time maybe?) and #2 what quality you are gonna rasterize it at.  I'm gonna keep playing with this and try to make some sense of it.

Not trying to sound argumentative here, but that's already way too many steps for my spoiled self to do.  All I have to do with EPS is drag it into photoshop, tell it at what size/dpi and bingo it rasterizes it ready for the layout.  I hardly ever do graphic layouts in illustrator, so I eventually need to bring them into photoshop - hence my desire to just drag and drop.

Although most of the time I work on something in illustrator and hit ctrl c, and then ctrl v in my open photoshop file.  scale to correct size and it automatically renders it at the correct dpi and looks perfect.   I likes the flexibility.

[Jakobud]

Okay, well I was just trying to give those without access to Photoshop or Illustrator a viable alternative.  I mean EPS and AI are better in the end just simply because they are standards but since they are proprietary (at least AI is...not sure about EPS cause a lot of programs can open EPS's) it just limits those who can actually use the vector artwork.

[Nannuu]

Not trying to harp on Coreldraw too much but you can get version 7 for 9.99 now, it will open, edit and export any .eps file.

[Grasshopper]

I totally agree with what Jacobud is saying. Illustrator is far too expensive for many people (myself included), especially if you're only going to use it once for designing your control panel graphics.

I'm not aware of any freeware or shareware program that can import EPS files and keep the drawing in vector format. The reason for this is that writing a proper Postscript interpreter is very difficult, and basically not worth the hassle for someone developing a low-end program.

There are several freeware programs that use the Ghostscript library to allow importation of EPS images but what Ghostcrript actually does is convert the image to raster format. This really defeats the purpose of using a vector format.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that some EPS files are embedded with a low-res bitmap image for previewing purposes. Some programs will import the low-res bitmap but not the main EPS image.

From my own personal perspective, I'd like the images to be available in TurboCAD 4 format becase that is the program that I used to design my button layout. Also TurboCAD 4 is available for free download on the web.

However the most accessible format (IMHO) would be the Windows clipboard format (can't remember the file extension off hand). Almost all vector programs can use the Windows clipboard.

[Beley]

.....However the most accessible format (IMHO) would be the Windows clipboard format (can't remember the file extension off hand). Almost all vector programs can use the Windows clipboard.

Its .WMF (windoes meta file) or .EMF (enhanced meta file)

paint shop pro, which is avalabable as fully functional sharware (for 30 days) can open and save both formats (and keep them in vector the whole time)

[tbombaci]

Sometimes an AI to a WMF files becomes tweaked. I have had it happen in the past.

Also, if there are any blends in the AI file, it will seriously barf when converted to WMF.

-Tom

[neuromancer]

There's some mis-information in this thread.

Illustrator's reads and writes .pdf files natively, and has for some time. Anyone using Windows, Mac, or Linux ought to be able to open and print pdf files.

Photoshop can rasterize pdf files. Can't Corel and PSP do likewise?

Anyone on any platform should be able to use EPS files, by placing them in their wordprocessor or page layout software, and then using ghost script to convert the output to .pdf.

By providing eps and Illustrator pdf, almost everyone's needs can be addressed, even if they don't have Illustrator.

Bob

[Frostillicus]

There's some mis-information in this thread.

Illustrator's reads and writes .pdf files natively, and has for some time. Anyone using Windows, Mac, or Linux ought to be able to open and print pdf files.

Photoshop can rasterize pdf files. Can't Corel and PSP do likewise?

Anyone on any platform should be able to use EPS files, by placing them in their wordprocessor or page layout software, and then using ghost script to convert the output to .pdf.

By providing eps and Illustrator pdf, almost everyone's needs can be addressed, even if they don't have Illustrator.

Bob

What is the misinformation?