Hooking an arcade PCB up to a TV

[Grec]

Hi everyone,
I recently picked up a Street Fighter 2, but the monitor was damaged beyond repair during moving. Monitors are exceptionally difficult to find where I live, so I was wondering if there is an easy way to connect a TV to an arcade PCB to use as a replacement monitor?

[rCadeGaming]

There plenty of good ways to do this.  The first thing to be aware is that you do NOT want to use a composite connection, as the picture quality will be very poor.  If you get a good low res CRT TV (tube-type) with either a component input or an RGB SCART input, you can get a very good arcade quality picture out of it.

Where do you live?  If you live in North America, a tv with a component input will be easy to find.  In other parts of the world (especially Europe), one with an RGB SCART input will be easy to find.

[Grec]

I live in North America, and don't think I'll have trouble finding a TV either S-Video or Component. I've been doing some searching and found some references to a PCB that can convert an arcade PCB signal to s-video? Do these exist? Where can I get them?

[amendonz]

Hit up the google for vogatek superguns.  Should do the trick.

[rCadeGaming]

Don't use s-video, it's better than composite, but component will be your best option. 

Your PCB is putting out RGB.  Component is equivalent in quality to RGB, it just communicates colorspace differently, so you need something to convert it.  RGB can be converted to component with relatively no loss.  This isn't the case with s-video or composite.

Something that translates colorspace without affecting resolution (no scaling or bull-crap like that) is called a transcoder, this is what you need.

These are some very high quality transcoders made by an AV enthusiast:

http://www.crescendo-systems.com/transcoder.html

I currently have a Crescendo TC1600 that I use to connect a MAME PC and all of my classic systems outputting RGB to my TV's component input.  These are kind of pricy, but the quality is worth it in my opinion.  Picture is immaculate, and it doesn't introduce any buzz in the audio, as opposed to a cheaper transcoder I have.

Here is something that's less expensive, but pretty popular:

http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html

Notice that the v4.1 encoder has component output.

The main differences between these two are:

-The JROK only accepts RGBS input (RGB and composite sync), but this will be fine with your SF2 pcb
-The JROK only accepts 15kHz resolutions, again no problem with SF2
-With some very simple wiring, a Crescendo will work with any kind of RGB input, whether it's VGA (which is RGB and seperate horizontal vertical sync, or RGBHV), RGBS, or RGB with composite video as sync
-A Crescendo will work with any resolution

Basically, the JROK should be fine for your PCB, but a Crescendo would handle that and a lot more.  Your cabinet could certainly have the ability to play more than one game.

-

As for the TV, for a proper arcade picture it's essential that the TV is a 15kHz CRT, meaning a low res tube type TV.  Make sure that it does NOT support 480p or higher, or else it won't display low resolutions correctly.  It will display a picture, but it will be upscaled and your scanlines and proper arcade picture will be lost.

A TV from the late 90's to early 2000's will be good; new enough to have a component input, but old enough not to support 480p.  I use a Sony "WEGA" KV27-FS120, which is great.  There are similar models from RCA, Toshiba, Samsung, etc.  You can find a good set on Craigslist for free sometimes.  Don't spend more than $50.

-

Oh, and a Supergun is designed to connect a PCB to a TV and handle power and controls.  You don't need all that if you already have a cabinet.

[Jack Burton]

Let's see a picture of this "SF2".  Is it a dynamo cabinet?  Does it look like this one?



If it does then you will be wanting to replace that monitor. Right?

I'm not sure of your skill level, but assuming you are a newbie then I don't recommend you go decasing a tv to install into this.   A 19" PC CRT monitor might be a easier, safer option.

What's your budget?  Do you have a 19" television already? 

RGB and Component are nice, however S-video through a proper RGB encoder can be 98% as good.  And if the difference is 50 dollars between the encoders it's up to you how much you want to spend. 

[rCadeGaming]

98% as good?  No not at all.

A PC monitor won't work with the resolution coming off that PCB.  A scaler would be required, which will tear up the native resolution, ruin the arcade image quality, and add lag, further ruining the arcade experience.

Decasing a TV is not that hard, just know how to discharge the tube.  If that is your cabinet, it looks like you could have enough space to fit a TV without decasing it.

If you want to talk budget, a crappy scaler with tons of lag could cost more than a JROK.  A decent low-lag scaler could be hundreds.   On the other hand, the a TV the could produce excellent arcade quality picture can easily be found for under $50, just need to choose a transcoder.

[Jack Burton]

See this thread for quite a few positive opinions concerning S-video:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=115632.0

Particularly from Mon Mothma, whose opinion on these sorts of matters I value more than any single person at this board.  And of course my own side by side comparisons.

Building a shelf and using a non-decased tv takes away a lot of the beauty and simplicity of using an arcade cabinet with an installed monitor. 

When you decase a tv you often don't really have a good place to put the chassis.  It can quickly become a complicated affair to place a decased tv onto the same mounts that 19" arcade monitors fit. 

Most 19" PC CRT monitors come inside a metal cage that will support the entire monitor without the plastic exterior.  These will often mount directly onto the same mounts as the arcade monitor.  They also only have one input, and either leaving the power switch in the ON position or wiring it to the cab power switch is very easy. 

The scalers will double the native resolution, but will not add any tearing.  It is true that it will look more pixelated.  Input delay is variable.  There are cheap scalers that do not add any more lag than you would find on a good lcd monitor. 

When it comes to these kinds of situations you have to be aware of what serves your own needs.  A 19" PC monitor is going to be much easier, and cleaner, and possibly cheaper than a TV + transcoder. 

Of course, there are many more options.

Replacement arcade monitors aren't impossible to find.  Often you can buy whole cabs with working monitors in them for less than $100.  Then there are RGB pro monitors like Sony PVM's.  And then there are even the replacement LCD's they make these days. 

If this were MY sf2 cab I would definitely be sending straight RGB to a display source that can handle 240p.  No scalers, No encoders, No transcoders. No exceptions.  But it may not be what's best for the OP. 

[rCadeGaming]

S-video isn't horrible, but there's no denying RGB is better.  This is a case where it would be very easy to go with RGB, so why mess with S-video?

An RGB connection will always look at least a little better than s-video

Now, component YPbPr video is functionally identical to RGB.  The conversion can actually be performed losslessly

TL;DR: If you've got an RGB capable monitor/TV, use it.  Otherwise, YMMV when using YPbPr component or S-Video.

When I said a scaler would "tear up" the native resolution I didn't mean it would add refresh tearing, I meant it would F*&# up the native resolution.  A scaler will not "double" the resolution, it will stretch it unevenly and create all kinds of ugliness.  Street Fighter II runs in 392x224, I don't think you're going to find a scaler that can exactly double that.  All scalers have some lag, especially cheap ones, why ruin an arcade cabinet that was lag free?  We're talking about Street Fighter here, control is pretty critical.

Decasing and mounting the TV isn't so impossible, and the cab you pictured looks like it would have enough room to completely hide the case if it was left on.

[Jack Burton]

Go ahead and cherry pick quotes if you want

I've had VERY good luck using quality RGB to S-Video converters with quality televisions (set correctly!) and various sources.  The results are often nearly indistinguishable in anything but a side-by-side comparison.

A scaler can pass 768x448 (SFII runs in 384x224, not 392x224).  Or it can squash the image into 640x480.  It would look worse, on that I agree.  Easy to go with RGB?  Definitely not.  These things are harder for people just getting into the hobby than you think.  When a guy says he just picked up a "Street Fighter 2", not a Dynamo, not even a cabinet, then he's probably a beginner or close to it.  Discharging a tv and relocating a chassis is not a beginner solution. 

It would completely hide the case with the bezel around it.  Might even fit the right distance from the glass if you angled it correctly.  But it would still be a tv sitting on a shelf inside the cabinet.  If you don't understand why that's a bad thing, I'm not sure I can explain it properly. 

[rCadeGaming]

You're right, SFII is 384 not 392, typo; but what scaler can output 768x448?  Serious question.

If it would be completely hidden and even the right distance from the glass, how can consider this to be worse than an upscaled laggy picture.  The TV would look like an arcade monitor, the PC monitor clearly would not.  Both are a deviation from the real cabinet, but we're talking about one that would be hidden, and one that be visually obvious and affect gameplay.

The lag...  it's a Street Fighter cab.  Lag is so important and he has an easy opportunity to keep it lag free.

[Jack Burton]

You're right, SFII is 384 not 392, typo; but what scaler can output 768x448?  Serious question.

If it would be completely hidden and even the right distance from the glass, how can consider this to be worse than an upscaled laggy picture.  The TV would look like an arcade monitor, the PC monitor clearly would not.  Both are a deviation from the real cabinet, but we're talking about one that would be hidden, and one that be visually obvious and affect gameplay.

The lag...  it's a Street Fighter cab.  Lag is so important and he has an easy opportunity to keep it lag free.

I could consider it worse because when I look on the inside of the cabinet from the I'd see a tv sitting on a shelf instead of a monitor properly installed.  When you're a fan of arcade cabs and hardware then that makes as much difference as anything.

I haven't used one, but the Cinemateq Picture Optimizer series is supposed to allow you to set any custom
resolution up to 1360x768.  It also allows you to use nearest neighbor resolutions with letterboxing.  Many of the players on shmups.com use it and they seem to be alright with the amount of lag, which means it must be pretty minimal.  I won't say it's not there because that wouldn't be true.  I also don't think it's that cheap. 

But there are a ton of other scalers out there, and some of them do the same thing for less money.  It's just a matter of research.

What you'd really need for this kind of thing is a vertical scan rate doubler.  That would let you connect a pcb outputting 15khz signals to most any PC CRT and display true 240p.  Sadly, they don't really exist in any useable form for arcade purposes.

The question is, how much does the OP care about a few ms of lag from a scaler?  If that gets a monitor that looks properly and cleanly fitted into the cab then I might make the sacrifice.  And ST is my favorite game of all time.  I'm a bit jaded though because I've played on and owned a ton of RGB 240p setups.  If the OP really wants to go for the nuts then have at it. 

If he's REALLY gonna go whole hog you can always RGB mod the TV itself! 
that was a joke

[rCadeGaming]

I could consider it worse because when I look on the inside of the cabinet from the I'd see a tv sitting on a shelf instead of a monitor properly installed.  When you're a fan of arcade cabs and hardware then that makes as much difference as anything.

I'm sorry but this is the part that just doesn't make sense.  What I'm saying is that it looks like there could be enough room to hide the TV case; and if it was decased, then even better.  All that you would be able to see is the tube of the TV.

We're talking about looking at the tube of a TV, which would have a pretty similar dot pitch and scanline thickness to a real arcade monitor, versus the tube of a PC monitor, which would be nowhere close. 

"If you're a fan of arcade hardware" the PC monitor is what's going to be very different, not the TV.

I haven't used one, but the Cinemateq Picture Optimizer series is supposed to allow you to set any custom
resolution up to 1360x768.  It also allows you to use nearest neighbor resolutions with letterboxing.  Many of the players on shmups.com use it and they seem to be alright with the amount of lag, which means it must be pretty minimal.  I won't say it's not there because that wouldn't be true.  I also don't think it's that cheap. 

You're right, I think I read about that one on Fudoh's site, but as you say it's not cheap.  I don't think you'd get one for less than a JROK and a good TV.  It doesn't make sense to pay more money to deviate further from the arcade picture and add lag.

But there are a ton of other scalers out there, and some of them do the same thing for less money.  It's just a matter of research.

You won't find a cheap one that can exactly double like that, nor will you find a cheap one under 2 frames lag.  "If you're a fan of arcade hardware" then you understand the importance of ZERO lag.

What you'd really need for this kind of thing is a vertical scan rate doubler.  That would let you connect a pcb outputting 15khz signals to most any PC CRT and display true 240p.  Sadly, they don't really exist in any useable form for arcade purposes.

Hmm... that's interesting.  I hadn't thought of this, but theoretically it would work if the monitor supports 120Hz.  Dot pitch would still be too high though; maybe you could semi-fix it by reducing sharpness; not sure how the scanlines would look.

[Jack Burton]

Man, I'm pretty aware of the differences of of dot pitches, scanline thickness, lag, etc.  Spent the last five years or so chasing down all manner of RGB monitors, fiddling with advancemame and soft 15khz, and comparing the images between all kinds of sources.  I've seen games running side by side in 240p on arcade monitors, RGB pro monitors, and PC CRT monitors at the same time.  You can kind of assume that most of the guys in the monitor section of this forum have done that stuff.

But like I said, there gets to be a point where you'd honestly prefer to have a clean mount for a monitor than ZERO LAG and a TV on a shelf.  Yes, even for SF2. Maybe you haven't gotten there, maybe you won't.  A decased tv installed right onto a arcade monitor chassis would be nice, but as I've said, that's not an easy thing to do for a beginner.

You can't reduce the sharpness on most PC CRT monitors.  There's just no setting for it.  And you should already have sharpness turned all the way down on your displays.

The image in 240p/120hz is very good.  I use it everyday on my desktop pc to play console games and the only thing I'd take over it is an arcade or pro monitor.

Now, one point you forgot to mention, is that even if a guy did get a nice line doubler, it would still be big piece of equipment to install on the wall of the cab.  Kinda ruins the image of opening up the back and just seeing monitor+pcb+power supply/transformer.  I think I could live with it.

Then there's the issue of -finding- a 19" PC monitor.  Most of them were 20" and won't fit without modifying the brackets a 19" sat in. 

[rCadeGaming]

But like I said, there gets to be a point where you'd honestly prefer to have a clean mount for a monitor than ZERO LAG and a TV on a shelf.  Yes, even for SF2. Maybe you haven't gotten there, maybe you won't.

That's entirely a preference.  I'm about five years into my cabinet build and I've gone the other direction.  Originally, I just wanted convenience, but the deeper I got into it the more I wanted the authenticity of native resolutions and no lag; even considering the large amount involved in getting this out of MAME, and allowing for MAME and consoles and real PCB's all in one cabinet.  My earlier plan was to use an LCD TV on a rotating bracket for convenience, now I'm to the point of building two different cabinet with TVs so I can have one horizontal and one vertical.

You can't reduce the sharpness on most PC CRT monitors.  There's just no setting for it.  And you should already have sharpness turned all the way down on your displays.

Right.  I forgot that it's kind of rare since I've had a few that do have a sharpness control, but you're right, most don't.

And you should already have sharpness turned all the way down on your displays.

Well, that's a preference too, and it depends on the monitor.

I think we've argued enough to show both sides pretty well; enjoyable debate.  It'll be up to the OP now.