Confirm Input Counts for Buttons/Sticks Keywiz

[Joel]

Hello, I am thinking of purchasing a KeyWiz rather than go through the trials of a keyboard hack.  I see that the Keywiz has 32 direct inputs.  I have looked around and do not have a solid answer on how to count the inputs.

Here is my plan:

I want to have a 2 player configuration with six buttons each player and 8 way joysticks. 1P/2P buttons.

I am calculating as such:

2 Joysticks = 8 X 2 = 16 Inputs
12 Action Buttons = 12 Inputs
1P/2P Buttons = 2 Inputs
ESC Key = 1 Input

That is a total of 31 inputs -- would that be correct?

Or I could simple use the KeyWiz Max and hook a keyboard up and then only use 30 Inputs with the configuration I outlined.

Am I correct in my totaling?  And would the Keywiz max serve my needs?

I thank you all for your knowledge and patience with a new guy in the control making game.

[Nyrine]

Joysticks are only 4 each. 8 way refers to the number of directions they can go (4 ways are physically restricted from the diagonals, 8 way's arent)

So your count is 8 too high.

[Spaced Invader]

Should look like this--

2 Joysticks = 4 X 2 = 8 Inputs
12 Action Buttons = 12 Inputs
1P/2P Buttons = 2 Inputs
ESC Key = 1 Input
I would add 2 Credit buttons =2 Inputs
And 1 Pause button = 1 input

For a total of 26 inputs. The credit buttons are necessary unless you are giving buttons double duty (bad idea IMHO) and the pause button makes life MUCH easier--phone, doorbell, etc... Hope this helps.  

[JoyMonkey]

Should look like this--

2 Joysticks = 4 X 2 = 8 Inputs
12 Action Buttons = 12 Inputs
1P/2P Buttons = 2 Inputs
ESC Key = 1 Input
I would add 2 Credit buttons =2 Inputs
And 1 Pause button = 1 input

For a total of 26 inputs. The credit buttons are necessary unless you are giving buttons double duty (bad idea IMHO) and the pause button makes life MUCH easier--phone, doorbell, etc... Hope this helps.  

I'm a fan of the KeyWiz's "Shazaaam!" function - double duty buttons as you put it. If you used one Shazaaam button, you would eliminate the need for buttons for Esc, 1P+2P credits, Pause, etc. So the CP doesn't get cluttered with buttons and there's less wiring involved!
So it'd go like this:

2 Joysticks = 4 X 2 = 8 Inputs
12 Action Buttons = 12 Inputs
1P/2P Buttons = 2 Inputs
And 1 Shazaaam! button = 1 input

[Joel]

Joysticks are only 4 each. 8 way refers to the number of directions they can go (4 ways are physically restricted from the diagonals, 8 way's arent)

So your count is 8 too high.

Ahh, thank you very much, I was not aware that the 8 way stick would only consume 4 inputs.  How does it register the diagonal directions?  Does it send a up and a right if you were to push the stick to the upper right?  Meaning send to keycodes?

[Joel]

Should look like this--

2 Joysticks = 4 X 2 = 8 Inputs
12 Action Buttons = 12 Inputs
1P/2P Buttons = 2 Inputs
ESC Key = 1 Input
I would add 2 Credit buttons =2 Inputs
And 1 Pause button = 1 input

For a total of 26 inputs. The credit buttons are necessary unless you are giving buttons double duty (bad idea IMHO) and the pause button makes life MUCH easier--phone, doorbell, etc... Hope this helps.  

That makes a much lower count so that perhaps I could wire the additional buttons that you mentioned.  That makes things  a lot more convenient.  Thank you for correcting my count!

[Joel]

As a follow up to this question, I was going to make it so that 1P and 2P controls are in separate boxes.  (I am not building a cabinet yet)

I was thinking of housing the keywiz in the 1P box and then having a 25pin Male connector on the side of the box.  Then on the 2P box I would have a 25pin Male connector as well and house of course, the 2P hardware.

Thus, since this is initally a lap/table control box, I could just have the 1P on my table when I am by myself and when a friend comes over for head-to-head, all I need to do it hook up a cable between the two boxes and we are ready to go.

The question would be... would it cause problems in the case where the 2P box was not connected, leaving all those inputs not connected to swtiches, etc.?

This would be a great solution though if this work work.

[AndyWarne]

That should work as long as the cable distance is not huge. For example, if you had a 50 foot cable, then all of those wires act as a 50 foot aerial because they are open-circuit at the far end until the switch is pressed. These wires could pick up crosstalk from other wires when the switches are pressed, especially if they are all bundled together in a 25-way cable. Connect any unused wires in the cable to ground to minimise this risk.

Or use one I-PAC in each box, with USB and hot-plug as required. The second one programmed to Player 2. A more expensive solution though as you would need two boards.

[RandyT]

...

The question would be... would it cause problems in the case where the 2P box was not connected, leaving all those inputs not connected to swtiches, etc.?

This would be a great solution though if this work work.

This would not be a problem at all.  The KeyWiz pulls up each input internally, so it is never left "open" or "floating".  The only way it will register a keypress is if an input is grounded.

Absolutely, under no circumstances should you ever "ground unused inputs" on the KeyWiz.  This will make your computer think you have a stuck key situation at boot time as well as make it think you are holding down all of those keys!

That should work as long as the cable distance is not huge. For example, if you had a 50 foot cable, then all of those wires act as a 50 foot aerial because they are open-circuit at the far end until the switch is pressed. These wires could pick up crosstalk from other wires when the switches are pressed, especially if they are all bundled together in a 25-way cable. Connect any unused wires in the cable to ground to minimise this risk.

Not sure what you are thinking about here, but "crosstalk" is only an issue in RF (analogue) and High-Frequency applications.  This is about as far from that as you could possibly get.

It is always good practice to keep wire runs as short as possible, but not always for this reason.  Short wires mean less resistance, which is the only consideration in this circumstance.  And even that can be dealt with by upping the wire gauge a notch.

Or use one I-PAC in each box, with USB and hot-plug as required. The second one programmed to Player 2. A more expensive solution though as you would need two boards.

 

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

I wrote "ground unused wires in the cable" NOT unused inputs to the encoder! Some people use for example a parallel printer cable or RS232 cable with 25 wires. Leaving unused wires inside the cable is bad practice. Best use them as grounds. Don't ground unused keyboard encoder inputs of course. That's the same as pressing the button!

Connecting a bunch of very long unterminated wires to a CPU can and does cause problems even if they are pulled high at the CPU end. Resistance has no effect. Even if the wire had an impossibly high resistance of 10 ohms, the input would still be pulled down to about 0.05 volts, easily low enough to activate it.

[RandyT]

I wrote "ground unused wires in the cable" NOT unused inputs to the encoder!

But that's not what the person asked.  Read his question again.

Some people use for example a parallel printer cable or RS232 cable with 25 wires. Leaving unused wires inside the cable is bad practice. Best use them as grounds. Don't ground unused keyboard encoder inputs of course. That's the same as pressing the button!

As I said, High frequency applications.  Even a 300 baud modem moves about 50 times more data.  Apples and oranges.

Aside from that, I've used cables like you describe for those applications for the last 15 years without issue.

Start talking about Video cables (much higher frequencies and analog signals), then you have an issue.

Connecting a bunch of very long unterminated wires to a CPU can and does cause problems even if they are pulled high at the CPU end.Resistance has no effect. Even if the wire had an impossibly high resistance of 10 ohms, the input would still be pulled down to about 0.05 volts, easily low enough to activate it.

You need to re-think this.  A wire that is connected to nothing, as is the case with a normally open switch, is the same as no wire connected at all.  Perhaps you can tell me how an open circuit can ground an input that is being held high?

As for "resistance having no effect", I'm inclined to agree.  But it has a better chance of affecting things than RF in this application.  And it's not impossible to get 10 ohms resistance in wiring. 100' of 30ga Kynar will get you around 13.  Not that it will affect much operation-wise, but it's certainly possible.


RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Blimey, didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

I am not going to continue because to do so would imply arrogance and that's not my bag, and has no place on this forum.

[RandyT]

Blimey, didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms..."  -Monty Python

 

RandyT

[Joel]

Thank you for your inputs.  From what I gathered from this is...

a) I should be able to do my 2 box connected through a cable.  Perhaps using a 15pin connector would be more appropriate.  But I was thinking I would have 1 8 way and 6 buttons and a 2P button that would be 4x2 = 8 + 6x2 = 12 + 1x2 = 2 == 22 wires yes?  Perhaps my 15pin theory is flawed and need to stay with the 25 pin connector.  I believe it is 2 wires per switch.  But then again, I do not know exactly how all this stuff it to be wired up yet.

b) 32 inputs will meet my needs.  And with the shifting key, I can control my emulation interface with the 1P controller.

Anything that I am off on, please correct me.  I really appreciate all of your knowledge and experience.

[paigeoliver]

Man, I really wish the other encoder guy would have jumped into this arguement too. That would have been pretty funny.  

[Tiger-Heli]

Thank you for your inputs.  From what I gathered from this is...

a) I should be able to do my 2 box connected through a cable.  Perhaps using a 15pin connector would be more appropriate.  But I was thinking I would have 1 8 way and 6 buttons and a 2P button that would be 4x2 = 8 + 6x2 = 12 + 1x2 = 2 == 22 wires yes?  Perhaps my 15pin theory is flawed and need to stay with the 25 pin connector.  I believe it is 2 wires per switch.  But then again, I do not know exactly how all this stuff it to be wired up yet.

Your math is off again, 1 Joystick is 4 inputs, 6 buttons is 6 inputs, 2P start is one input.  You can use the same GND input for all switches, so 1 more input.

So 12 wire inputs for what you require.  However, you might want to add Coin 2 and maybe Esc and Pause on the P2 panel, which would take you to 15 inputs.

However, DB25's are cheaper than DB15's.  Check on www.pricewatch.com for RS-232 extension cables, and you should be able to find 10' cables for around  $1-$2 each.

Also, I was (am) planning something very similar to what you are doing.  I was going to have the 1P panel with a 2P panel also, then I was going to add a 2-Player Hotrod style panel with rotary joysticks, and a 1P dual trigger-stick panel for assault.

I decided that I didn't want to have to plug in the 1P panel along with the HotRod panel to play rotary games on the HotRod panel, so I modified the plans to mount the encoder in a project box with 2 (4 in my case) DB25 ports that I can plug any panel into.

This also freed up more space inside the P1 panel.  Just a thought . . .

Details are at http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/arcadepanels/

E-mail me if you have questions.

BTW, you should be fine with DB25 cables.  No need for a 50' cable anyway unless you plan on playing against someone with real bad body odor.

[Joel]

Your math is off again, 1 Joystick is 4 inputs, 6 buttons is 6 inputs, 2P start is one input.  You can use the same GND input for all switches, so 1 more input.

So 12 wire inputs for what you require.  However, you might want to add Coin 2 and maybe Esc and Pause on the P2 panel, which would take you to 15 inputs.

However, DB25's are cheaper than DB15's.  Check on www.pricewatch.com for RS-232 extension cables, and you should be able to find 10' cables for around  $1-$2 each.

Also, I was (am) planning something very similar to what you are doing.  I was going to have the 1P panel with a 2P panel also, then I was going to add a 2-Player Hotrod style panel with rotary joysticks, and a 1P dual trigger-stick panel for assault.

I decided that I didn't want to have to plug in the 1P panel along with the HotRod panel to play rotary games on the HotRod panel, so I modified the plans to mount the encoder in a project box with 2 (4 in my case) DB25 ports that I can plug any panel into.

This also freed up more space inside the P1 panel.  Just a thought . . .

Details are at http://www.fraggersxtreme.com/arcadepanels/

E-mail me if you have questions.

BTW, you should be fine with DB25 cables.  No need for a 50' cable anyway unless you plan on playing against someone with real bad body odor.

Thanks for the link, I found the pages very informative.  As you mention, that I could use 1 ground wire.  So I could wire that up to all of my items in the 2P box and also use that 1 ground in the 1P box as well, carrying the ground on one of the pins of my connection cable?  That way I would only use 1 wite for all the grounds?  Would there be an issue with leaving the ground unconnected on the DB25 connection if the 2P box was not hooked up?

Thanks for your time!

[Tiger-Heli]

>So I could wire that up to all of my items in the 2P box and also use >that 1 ground in the 1P box as well, carrying the ground on one of >the pins of my connection cable?

Correct.

>That way I would only use 1 wite for all the grounds?

Correct.  (Technically 2, one in the 1P box, and one in the 2P box, but you get the idea.)  Also, in the 2P box, you could run separate ground wires to each button, and connect them to a terminal block and to the one pin of the connection cable.

>Would there be an issue with leaving the ground unconnected on >the DB25 connection if the 2P box was not hooked up?

No, not a issue anyway, but the ground is not unconnected.  Say you are running the ground on Pin 1 of the DB25 connection.  Then DB25 Pin 1 is connected to all the button grounds in the P1 panel and also back to the KeyWiz Ground.  It is connected, in the same sense that the Button 1 ground is connected, even though the non-depressed button is creating an open.