Question about difference of 4-way and 8-way sticks

[BoLt]

So I searched the forum for a bit on why you need a joystick that can be switched to 4-way and came up short on an answer.  I saw that some people said 4 way is really only needed for certain games, but why is that?  That really is my question, why do you need a 4-way stick?

[dfmaverick]

For instance, in a game such as Pac-Man, being able to hit two switches at once in the corners with an 8-way joystick can make you go the wrong direction than intended while on a 4-way, you can only hit one switch at a time.

[ABACABB]

Yes, I couldn't really understand this either when I started my build, but it becomes quite clear when trying to play a 4-way game with an 8-way joystick.  I thought I could make it work with my Tankstick on 8-way mode but the 4-way games don't like diagonal movements. This is all fine and good when you nail the perfectly vertical and horizontal movements, but in the heat of the game when things get fast/intense, you'll inevitably bump one of these diagonal movements and your guy on the screen while either go the opposite direction or sometimes not respond to the movement and do nothing at all. It gets frustrating quickly. 

[Vigo]

Yeah, some 4-way games sometimes respond funny when you hit a diagonal, but it is livable. IMO, you don't need 4-way, but for 4-way classics is it a great improvement in feel. The physical restriction on the joystick feels more natural to the real arcade game. The real arcade machine only allowed you to go up/down/left/right; it feels closer to the real thing with a stick that has those same restrictions.

[Cynicaster]

The important thing to remember is that these old arcade games were designed and built as unique, integrated products--in other words, the game code was written with a specific input device in mind, not a generic universal joystick like many of us use on our cabinets today.  So when, say, Nibbler was being coded, the programmer did not even have to give consideration to how to handle an input of LEFT+DOWN, because the joystick on the machine would never allow those switches to be pressed simultaneously.  Fast forward to the glorious world of MAME, and joysticks are now sending diagonals to those games, and the code simply does not know what to do with it, leading to unpredictable and erratic results. 

 

[CheffoJeffo]

More here ...

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116970.0

For my part, I like the classics and want the controls to feel "right", so having a physically restricted 4-way is my choice. But, I actually have a cab dedicated for those games (and a cab dedicated for classics that use an 8-way), so there is no clutter added to the control panel.

[BoLt]

That really clears it up for me.  Thanks for the info guys.

[EightBySix]

I still say (apart from the entirely understandable argument about the physical feel of the thing) that this could be compensated for in the encoder software. At an electrical signal level one of the switches must be closed first. Then if another closes, just ignore it. Maybe some special cases for when the joystick is rolled through the directions.... I'm gonna have a play at it when I get my project built.... One day!

[RandyT]

I still say (apart from the entirely understandable argument about the physical feel of the thing) that this could be compensated for in the encoder software. At an electrical signal level one of the switches must be closed first. Then if another closes, just ignore it. Maybe some special cases for when the joystick is rolled through the directions.... I'm gonna have a play at it when I get my project built.... One day!

So what happens when the switch you want to act upon isn't the one which is closed first?  It's a fruitless endeavor, IMHO, which is why you don't see a "feature" like this on existing encoders.  Folks have been looking at this issue for a decade, and no real success stories.

BTW, with the exception of the special cases, I'm pretty sure you can simulate what you are referring to with some MAME input acrobatics. 

RandyT

[CheffoJeffo]

I still say (apart from the entirely understandable argument about the physical feel of the thing) that this could be compensated for in the encoder software. At an electrical signal level one of the switches must be closed first. Then if another closes, just ignore it. Maybe some special cases for when the joystick is rolled through the directions.... I'm gonna have a play at it when I get my project built.... One day!

So what happens when the switch you want to act upon isn't the one which is closed first?  It's a fruitless endeavor, IMHO, which is why you don't see a "feature" like this on existing encoders.  Folks have been looking at this issue for a decade, and no real success stories.

BTW, with the exception of the special cases, I'm pretty sure you can simulate what you are referring to with some MAME input acrobatics. 

RandyT

This.

[Xiaou2]

I still say (apart from the entirely understandable argument about the physical feel of the thing) that this could be compensated for in the encoder software. At an electrical signal level one of the switches must be closed first. Then if another closes, just ignore it. Maybe some special cases for when the joystick is rolled through the directions.... I'm gonna have a play at it when I get my project built.... One day!

 The real problem  IS  the Physical,  not the electrical.

 Think of a Baseball Diamond.  You bat the ball... and instead of running to first base... you cut straight through the field... and go to 2nd instead.   

 That saves a lot of time, as well as vector-directional / momentum shifts.  (No stop and starts / pauses  ...etc.)

 So with a 4way, its more than just about non-activation... its about more efficient paths to the switches,
which creates a faster, and more fluid response.  Thats a lot more than just  "Feel".

[molton]

The only way to play 4-way games on an 8-way joystick is to restrict yourself from hitting the corners, and thats just no fun at all.  Nobody wants to play pacman like that IMO.

I use groovygamegears omni-2 switchable joysticks, they are great.  My girlfriend's friend who is apparently a lot better at arcade games than me got to the 3rd level in Raiden Fighters 2, a really hard Shmup without needing a second quarter with the omni-2 in 8-way mode, I got 96000 in Donkey Kong in 4-way mode, which is like 50000 better than i did with an 8-way controller, the day that I installed the things! Games like popeye are practically unplayable with 8-way controls also IMO.

[pinballjim]

I've found on 4 way joysticks with a square shaped restrictor I can still get diagonals. 

For instance, I've got a Zippyy set on 4 way.  The nubs have been removed so you can slide it from corner to corner.  At about 45 degrees between any two directions, I still hit both switches at once.  It makes stuff like Don Pachi barely playable without having to rotate anything.

Another cabinet has some Ultimarc E-stick (that's really a relabeled HAPPS) and it's the same situation.

[Gray_Area]

...........when I got into MAME, despite not having played vids for years, I knew before even ordering an X-arcade that 4-way games would be problematic with an 8-way stick. Um, why? Because if you press diagonally, and the opportunity comes to go the other direction included in that 'combo' movement, you're going to go that direction. And die. And smash the control panel.

But hey maybe I'm wrong I thought. Ahh, no.

Really, this is not obvious??

[bradx]

i am someone who loves the classics, but i have to admit, personally, unless i am playing a pac man game or a handful of other classics, the 8 way works fine.  for the vast majority of games in mame an 8 way stick works best.  actually, i built one cab with a 4 way wico leaf switch stick just for a hundred or so classics, but 95% of the time friends and myself play the cab with all the games and the 8 way sticks. 

i also decided from the get go that i would rather have multiple cabs than some frankenpanel trying to cram every imaginable control scheme onto a single piece of wood...

[molton]

Gray Area, I have a thread on here where i install Omni 2 switchable joysticks into an X-Arcade among other things, its not hard, you just have to make the mounting holes on the omni-2 joysticks a little bigger.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120271.msg1275188.html#msg1275188