No sound in many games in groovymame? (HD4350 related? CRT_Emu?)

[Endprodukt]

Hi,
I'm in the middle of setting up a new computer for ny cabinet.
I'm using Groovymame 0.146u4, XP32, Radeon HD 4350 with Emu_CRT Driver,  connected to a TV Screen through an UMSA via Scart.
 Long story short:

I have a very strange, stuttered sound (it's more or less just noise bursts) in many games such as MK 1-3. This only happens when Switchres is activated. If deactivated the Sound is normal but the screen is way to small (of course). Even with switchres activated it doesn't happen in ALL games, some seem to work without problems.

I thought this MAY BE driver related. If I understand everything right I shouldn't get a screen through VGA to an PC Screen after installing the hacked driver... but I do. But the UMSA wouldn't work if the output wouldn't be at 15khz and I wouldn't get a picture on the tv screen. VMM also finds the driver.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Calamity]

Try -video d3d

Check this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,122208.msg1297611.html#msg1297611

[Endprodukt]

Tried that, didn't do anything. Sounds still messy. It's like that in almost every game. Just a few seem to work. When I press alt+tab to get to the desktop, the sound get's REALLY fast but is actually playing. Back to game I have the same problem.

[Calamity]

Press F11 during game and check what speed it's really running at.

[Endprodukt]

Game runs at 100,22% average speed  (Mortal Kombat 1). No sound. Pressing F11 says 100, too. Game feels just as it should... no sound though.

[Calamity]

Try enabling -triplebuffer.

[krick]

Do you have a PC monitor and your TV connected at the same time?

Maybe that's causing problems.

[Endprodukt]

Enabled triplebuffer, same problem

No, PC Monitor ist not connected, only the TV through DVI->Vga-> UMSA. Some games work just fine (Mr.Driller) but most have no/stuttering sound. The stutter is not like it's a little... I only get soundbursts.

-> DDRAW + Switchres 0 = Sound, picture too small, game too fast
-> DDRAW + Switchres 1 = No Sound, Picture good, gamespeed good
-> D3D + Switchres 0 = Picture strechted, stuttering sound
-> D3D + Switchres 1 =        "                              "

[Calamity]

That is too odd.

I assume your sound wiring is ok and you have tested this with other sound apps.

The HD 4350 has its own audio built-in hardware that needs its specific drivers, check in the device manager to see if everything is fine.

[Calamity]

Wait a minute Endprodukt, what you mean by "Switchres"?

-switchres option?
-modeline option?

[krick]

That is too odd.

I assume your sound wiring is ok and you have tested this with other sound apps.

The HD 4350 has its own audio built-in hardware that needs its specific drivers, check in the device manager to see if everything is fine.

That's a good point.  If you install the stock ATI drivers, it installs an HDMI audio driver.  This driver is not part of the older Catalyst drivers that CRT_EmuDriver is based off of.  I think you can download the driver separately (or possibly as an optional Windows Update), but once the driver is installed, I think you need to disable the device in Device Manager.

[Endprodukt]

With switchres I mean switchres Modeline is at 1.

Audio works with everything else, just Mame isn't working. Device Manager say's there are missing drivers for HD AUdio Device, I suppose this is for the HD4350. You think this could be connected?

I just tried to hook everything up to the VGA output of the card and it's working. Isn't it supposed to work only through the DVI and not through both? I remember that windows said that the approval failed through installation and if I want to continue. Is that normal?

[Calamity]

Audio works with everything else, just Mame isn't working. Device Manager say's there are missing drivers for HD AUdio Device, I suppose this is for the HD4350. You think this could be connected?

I would definitely try to fix the HD Audio device!

I just tried to hook everything up to the VGA output of the card and it's working. Isn't it supposed to work only through the DVI and not through both? I remember that windows said that the approval failed through installation and if I want to continue. Is that normal?

The VGA output is perfectly functional, the problem is that your monitor won't be detected on boot, defaulting video output to the DVI connector. After boot you can make turn the VGA output on again but you need to do this every time.

[krick]

I think this is the universal HDMI audio driver from Microsoft...
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/888111

And here's an older HDMI audio driver from ATI...
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/8-2/Pages/hdmi_xp.aspx?&lang=English


If your card has a VGA port, then you should probably use that.  Most Radeon 4xxx cards have two DVI ports, or a DVI port and an HDMI port.

On most cards, the port that's at the bottom of the card (closest to the motherboard) is usually the primary port.  But this is not always the case.

I have an old Radeon X600XT card that has a DVI-D port and a VGA port.  The VGA port is the top port, but it seems to be the primary port.  If it's not the primary port, it still works correctly with GroovyMAME, so that's all that matters.

Out of curiousity, What's the make/model of your card?  Is it an OEM card (Dell, HP, etc..)?

[Endprodukt]

Installed the HD Audio Driver (from the latest Catalyst!), didn't work. At least the sound in mame is still the same.

VGA output works while booting.

Card is an Radeon HD 4350 Asus - I selected it because it seems to work good with Soft15khz and low resolution modes.

[Calamity]

But did it actually fix the device manager warning?

[Endprodukt]

yes it did! the hdmi output is not listed in the audio options but that's because it's not connected... at least that's how it works with all my HDMI devices.

[krick]

I'm confused.  When you connect to the VGA port, does it fix the sound issues in MAME?

[Endprodukt]

No, connecting the VGA does not fix the sound issue. Until now the only thing that fixed the sound issue was setting "switchres" to "0" in ddraw mode. But then the game is too fast and the screen too small.

[Calamity]

VGA output works while booting.

Probably your UMSA is properly detected by the card as a monitor, that's interesting.

[Endprodukt]

Well or something with the driver is not working as I still can connect my card to a pc monitor. right!?

[Calamity]

No, connecting the VGA does not fix the sound issue. Until now the only thing that fixed the sound issue was setting "switchres" to "0" in ddraw mode. But then the game is too fast and the screen too small.

Please try regular MAME with option -switchres on.

[Calamity]

Well or something with the driver is not working as I still can connect my card to a pc monitor. right!?

If you're getting 15 KHz and you can get more than 60 custom modelines (check Arcade_OSD) then the driver is working. The driver works with any type of monitor, we're not restricting 31 KHz and higher frequencies at all.

However, launch dxdiag and check if both ddraw and d3d acceleration is enabled.

[krick]

Just for the hell of it, you should make sure that you actually have the latest DirectX installed too...

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=35

[Endprodukt]

Do I need to create new videomodes for the regular mame version?

Just tried the regular version:

DDraw and D3D are bent on  top of the screen and have the same sound stutter problems. Only switchres off + hwstretch on gives normal sound but of course a blurred picture.

[Calamity]

Are you using magic resolutions? Can you attach here either your modelines.txt file or a log from groovymame:

groovymame mk -v -md 4 >mk.txt

[Endprodukt]

Sure, there you go, I don't know what exactly magic resolutions does but it's set to auto.

[Calamity]

Thanks. Everything is normal there.

Just tried the regular version:

DDraw and D3D are bent on  top of the screen and have the same sound stutter problems. Only switchres off + hwstretch on gives normal sound but of course a blurred picture.

Well, there's something really odd going on in your system. The sound stuttering is not related to GroovyMAME. The fact that it happens whenever you switch resolutions seems to point to the video card (??!!) and to me the only connection between the video card and the audio is the built in HD sound that might be conflicting with the version of the driver or something. I would try installing the proper version of the audio driver here:

http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/9-3/Pages/radeonaiw_xp.aspx?&lang=English

[krick]

Some other ideas...

Do you have the latest chipset drivers installed for your motherboard?

What CPU do you have?
Is it overclocked?
What kind of cooling?  (stock/aftermarket, air/water, )

Could the CPU be overheating and throttling?

Are you using onboard sound or a discrete video card?

Do you have the latest sound drivers?

Is the sound sharing an IRQ with anything (especially the video)?

For the hell of it, you should try uninstalling all ATI drivers, then running the Catalyst Cleaner....
http://www.ultimarc.com/cat-uninstaller.exe
Then do a clean install of CRT_EmuDriver.



EDIT:   I also wanted to mention that I had an issue where I got an error at the end of the CRT_EmuDriver installation mentioned in this thread...
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121216.0.html

Basically, it didn't install the resolutions properly, so I had to run VMMaker and restart for it to work.

[Endprodukt]

Latest chipset drivers are installed,

CPU is intel duel core quad, air cooled without overclocking. I don't think the cpu is the problem.

I'm using onboard sound. It's a Realtek ALC888s Chip with the latest driver.

How can I check if the IRQ is sharing anything?

I allready reinstalled the system today and I was the same as before... this is getting really frustrating.

[krick]

Hmmm.  Onboard sound shouldn't share with video.

If you uninstall the HDMI audio device, reboot, refuse to install the driver, then disable it in Device Manager?  Does it make any difference?

Is this a standard XP installation or one of the hacked "tinyXP" installs?

I'm running out of ideas at this point.

[Endprodukt]

It's just Windows XP professional. I try to delete all HDMI drivers and clean the registry... we'll see what happens.

[Calamity]

At any moment did you try using the version 9.3 of the HDMI driver I linked above?

[Endprodukt]

Yes but windows refused to take it. right now I hooked up my computer to a pc monitor again to install all net. frameworks to make ONE software working to delete all registrys connected to the newer driver...

[krick]

I think most software only requires .NET 2.0.  I know that the ATI Catalyst Control Center only requires that.

I wouldn't bother installing higher than 2.0 unless you need to.

[Endprodukt]

No matter what I do I can't deinstall the old drivers. Windows automaticly installs the new driver and I can't find it in the registry...

Also the old driver 9.3 comes with two WDM drivers (RIO and AVS_T200) and both give me an exclamation mark.

[Calamity]

No matter what I do I can't deinstall the old drivers. Windows automaticly installs the new driver and I can't find it in the registry...

Sometimes you need to uninstall it manually from device manager, right-clicking on the concerned device, until Windows doesn't find any compatible driver on boot.

[Endprodukt]

I did that a couple of times now. Question is... which WDM driver would be the right one anyway...

[Calamity]

I did that a couple of times now. Question is... which WDM driver would be the right one anyway...

I would try the one in the link above.

[krick]

Did you use the Catalyst Cleaner that I linked to earlier?

Sometimes, you need to uninstall the drivers and remove the devices in device manager, then boot into safe mode (tap F8 while booting), before running the Catalyst Cleaner to really get rid of them.

[Endprodukt]

I will try the cat uninstaller. Which driver should I install afterwards?!

[krick]

I would just install the CRT_EmuDriver 9.3 first to see how sound behaves.  If that works.  Don't mess with the HDMI audio driver.

If that doesn't work, I'd run windows update and check to see if there's a driver for the HDMI Audio in the "optional" section.

If not, then I'd probably download the latest ATI/AMD driver package for your card, unpack it, and manually install the HDMI driver through Device Manager.

If that doesn't work, I think I have a stand-alone HDMI audio driver for my Radeon HD 4xxx card somewhere that worked for me.  I'll see if I can find it tonight.

[Endprodukt]

Yeah but that's pretty much what I already did. I reinstalled everything today including windows. After windows I installed the emudriver and the soundcard driver. directx and that's pretty much it.

[Calamity]

I think I disagree Krick on his last post. I'd do a fresh install of all the components from the link I passed, to make sure they all are from the same version (9.3). My guess is that there's a version conflict in there.

[Endprodukt]

So should I install the 9.3 version from your link and THEN install the emu driver?

edit: the cat uninstaller didn't do anything to the wdm audiodriver... I can't get rid of it.

[krick]

I agree.   Follow Calamity's instructions over mine.  He has more experience at this than I do.

[Calamity]

First CRT_Emudriver 9.3. Then the other individual packages from the link: HDMI and WDM.

The problem with updated Windows XP distributions is that they ship drivers which versions are newer than the CRT_Emudriver's. Windows has some sort of driver cache which makes it very hard to get rid of those. Windows insists on reinstalling its own version just because it's newer and that's all that seems to matter.

They can get removed in fact, it's difficult but possible, it may require to boot on safe mode and remove the driver manually from device manager.

Just focus on the HDMI and WDM stuff, the Emudriver is fine.

[Endprodukt]

Problem is: I can't get rid of the newer driver no matter how often I go to the device manager in safe mode and delete the driver. It's reinstalling on the next boot. Second problem is I don't know which driver in the package you send me is actually the right one. Third problem is: Is it normal that I get prompted by windows that there could be an compatibility issue when installing the emu_driver?

[krick]

The error at the end of the CRT_EmuDriver install is normal.  There's two that I've personally seen...

The the first is a "copy file" error.  From my research, this error is caused by the missing Catalyst Control Panel software in the CRT_EmuDriver package.

The second error I've seen is a "thunk.exe" error, which is what I think your seeing.  There error says something like...

"'Setup did not find a driver compatible with your current hardware or operating system. Setup will now exit."

This second error only happens to me with with 9.3 CRT_EmuDriver, and from my research, it's related to something called "Smart Gart" that is supposed to pick the best resolution for the next restart at the end of the driver install.  For some reason, it chokes when trying to set the resolution.  I think it's because none of the newly installed CRT_EmuDriver resolutions are appropriate for a PC monitor.  What happened to me what that when I rebooted with my arcade monitor attached, it was trying to start up in 640x480 but not interlaced, which won't work on an low res arcade monitor.

So in my case, I had to run VMMaker after installing CRT_EmuDriver on my PC before rebooting and attaching the arcade monitor and then everything was cool.

[Calamity]

These are the links:

http://www2.ati.com/drivers/9-3_xp32-64_wdm.exe
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/hdmi_xp2.aspx?&lang=English

Third problem is: Is it normal that I get prompted by windows that there could be an compatibility issue when installing the emu_driver?

If you mean Windows complaining about the driver not being signed, then that's fine. If it's something else, then I haven't ever seen it.

It's been long since I run into issues with the driver and it was never because of the WDM thing, I believe it should be possible to replace the existing version with the ones I linked, but I'm not sure how. It might require to uninstall several devices at a time to get it to work.

Sorry for this. If this method doesn't work try Krick's idea.

[Endprodukt]

That second link is to version 12.8 of the HDMI driver that I'm trying to get rid of. We want the hdmi driver for version 9.3, right?

[Calamity]

That second link is to version 12.8 of the HDMI driver that I'm trying to get rid of. We want the hdmi driver for version 9.3, right?

That's interesting, the link in the 9.3 page is to the updated HDMI driver... so I wouldn't touch that one.

That seems to point to the WDM driver as the possible problem.

[Endprodukt]

And which device is actually using the wdm driver? because I have installed the 12.8 hdmi driver.

[Calamity]

I think the WDM is used by the whole thing, don't know if there's any specific device linked to it.

Another idea, unistall the video driver, install the whole 9.3 catalyst package:
http://www2.ati.com/drivers/9-3_xp32_dd_ccc_wdm_enu.exe

This will install the WDM driver probably.

Then *only*uninstall the display driver and reinstall CRT_Emudriver.

[Endprodukt]

I'll give it a try.

[Endprodukt]

well... now I can't delete the video driver without windows reinstalling it on an instant. I hate my life.

[Calamity]

Don't know if you've tried this already. Once you uninstall, don't reboot into normal mode to give Windows a chance to reinstall things, reboot in safe mode instead and install drivers from there. Not sure if it'll work though.

[Endprodukt]

Safe Mode installs drivers on it's own. Tried that several times.

[Calamity]

I've run out of ideas, sorry

Won't you have an older copy of Windows XP?

[Endprodukt]

Can get one. You think that will fix anything? I'm running out of motivation.

I just did everything hooked up to my lcd screen... ran mk2 with all the same settings and had sound (no picture because of 15khz). switched over to my cabinet... no sound...

[Endprodukt]

What would you suggest? Get a new graphic card, soundcard, mainboard, computer!? What should I do?

[Calamity]

As I said, I'd try an older copy of Windows, older enough to accept our drivers as something new. Can't promise you anything, but this has worked for hundreds of people, why should your system be different.

[Endprodukt]

Which Windows version would you actually recommend?

[krick]

Safe Mode installs drivers on it's own. Tried that several times.

The only drivers that should get installed in safe mode are generic VGA drivers.  This is normal.

Have you tried booting into safe mode and running Catalyst Cleaner, then installing CRT_EmuDriver?

Also, have you looked in your control panel under the audio settings?...

[Endprodukt]

Well... no... it's installing the AMD High Def Audio Drivers that came with the latest catalyst for win xp. I'm starting to think it has something to do with the monitor, sync or something. It's really strange.

IF it was really about the drivers, why would ANY game work at all? I mean... there are some games in groovymame that work just fine.

[krick]

Well... no... it's installing the AMD High Def Audio Drivers that came with the latest catalyst for win xp.

Oh, OK.  I don't think that's a problem.  Boot into windows normally, go into Device manager, right click on the AMD HDMI audio device and select "disable".  Then go into control panel and make sure that your normal onboard sound is set as the default.

[Endprodukt]

I have sound... windows, all the other emulators... it's just mame. What the ---fudgesicle--- is going on there

[krick]

The only thing that's *different* about your situation from most people is the UMSA.  I don't recall anyone here using one.

Could there be a problem there?  Is it getting the proper voltage at the right amps?

[Endprodukt]

It's this one:


It needs 5v and 15khz.

I connected my VGA directly to an LCD and the sound as well... just as it is. Same problem. Sound is stuttering. Means, it's not the UMSA.

It's really strange. Why would ANY game work at all with sound?

Crypt Killer works with sound, Mr. Driller aswell.

[krick]

OK, here's an idea.  How about you make two lists of games.  One list is games that have no sound problems, the other list is games with sound problems.  Maybe there's a commonality between games that will help indicate what the problem is.

I also just thought of something.  Could it be an issue with the audio volume level?  Maybe it's overdriving something and clipping or cutting out.  Does it make any difference if you play with headphones plugged directly into your motherboard line out (usually the green plug)

[Endprodukt]

No difference. Mortal Kombat starts with real low sound levels usually so nothing is overdriven and I would have no sound wiith switchres = 0. I think that the reason why some games work is that they start at 640x480 and don't have to switch resolution or something...

EDIT: It seems like the games that work with sound run at 60hz while the others don't . Does that make any sense? I could send a txt file from one of the working games if that helps?

Thanks for all your help!

[Calamity]

Let's try something:

mame mk -wavwrite mk.wav

Then play the resulting recorded wav with Windows Media Player. That will let us know if it's either a driver problem or something wrong about MAME.

[Endprodukt]

Result: MK.WAV plays absolutely fine in the windows media player.

[Calamity]

Interesting. So the sound is properly mixed and the problem must come at the point when it's transferred to the hardware 

Try setting the option -audio_latency 2 or 3 to see if that makes any difference.

BTW you should be doing all these tests with regular MAME, are you?

[Endprodukt]

No, I was testing with Groovymame. Normal Mame gave me a distorted picture in Mortal Kombat (bent on the top to the left). Changing latency to 3 didn't help in both versions.

[Calamity]

The other option that comes to my mind is the -samplerate, but I don't think it will affect either.

Only test on regular MAME from now on. Create a fresh mame.ini (mame -cc).

Now, you're saying that 60 Hz games run fine. Let's try forcing mk to run at 60 Hz:

mame mk -speed 1.09

[Endprodukt]

I will do that when I'm back home. Any specific settings I should do to the fresh Mame.Ini?

I'm asking because normal mame without additional settings runs fine.

[Calamity]

Just the -switchres option, because the sound problems only happen when running full screen, wasn't it? Remind to create a fresh ini for this.

[Endprodukt]

Totally screws the screen and sound is like before.

[Calamity]

Well the distorted screen is not relevant, probably the base modelines installed by the driver are a bit off for your monitor, you can check this in Arcade_OSD selecting the same resolution which MAME is using here (probably 400x256).

So the facts are that regular MAME, when running full screen, without any sort of vsync or other special feature, and a capable CPU, produces sound stuttering in your system.

Now, if this has any relation to the CRT_Emudriver, is something that is beyond my understanding.

[Endprodukt]

And it only happens with switchres on. Works without. What should I do!?

[Calamity]

And it only happens with switchres on. Works without. What should I do!?

Yes that's what I mean by running full screen.

You may try updating the video drivers with a more recent version, to discard the CRT_Emudriver.

[Endprodukt]

You mean switching to soft 15khz?

[Calamity]

You mean switching to soft 15khz?

Yes. But before it would be interesting to see if the problem happens with a normal monitor, 31 KHz, full screen.

[Endprodukt]

Ok, I'll try that! Thanks for you patience and all your help. You should get money for that. 

[Endprodukt]

Tried to install the latest catalyst... now my sound isn't working at all. Maybe the onboard sound is just utter ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I'll get a soundcard and try again.

[Calamity]

Look at this: http://forum.novatech.co.uk/showthread.php?4658-No-Sound-Realtek-ALC888

[Endprodukt]

did that several times, even bought a new soundcard today and disabled the onboard sound. doesn't work.

[Endprodukt]

Okay one last thing I want to try... I will make my own VGA-Scart cable... let's be SURE that the umsa isn't the problem.

[krick]

Did you ever look at the control panel sound properties "audio" tab?

Was everything set to use your on-board sound?

The fact that you installed a new sound card and it still doesn't work, leads me to believe that something is wrong in windows, either in the control panel setting for your audio, or possibly some sort of mixer settings.

When you test, you should be plugging headphones directly into the green line-out port each time to rule out any other possible interference.

Are you positive that your CPU or motherboard isn't being overclocked, even unintentionally?  Sometimes, when a motherboard is overclocked, it raises the speed of the PCI bus, which will cause problems with onboard devices and/or add-in cards.

I would try going into your motherboard BIOS and resetting everything to default just to be sure.
Also, are you using the latest BIOS for your motherboard?  Maybe there's a know problem with the version you're using.

[Endprodukt]

Of couse... that's the first thing I did and I wouldn't have ANY sound at all.

I found something interesting though... while the computer vga was connected to the pc monitor but the sound to the umsa (sound from the cab) the sound in windows was stuttering. interesting. I'll see what happens If I connect an external sound source.

[Endprodukt]

Okay I just found the problem. It's the UMSA. I connected my heaphones to the soundcard and got normal sound.

[krick]

Okay I just found the problem. It's the UMSA. I connected my heaphones to the soundcard and got normal sound.

I thought you tried that earlier.

How are you supplying power to the UMSA?

[Endprodukt]

It came with a 5v power supply. And yes, I've tested it but the other way around. I hooked it up in different ways. But my testing failed because I've tested all in 60hz mode. It works on that.

 I mean... sound works with severel resolutions but not with others? Seems like it's not getting enough power or something.

[krick]

Is there a support forum for the UMSA?  You can't be the only person having this problem unless it's just a random defective part (or defective power supply).

[Endprodukt]

I will get in touch with the people who made my UMSA.

Thanks for all the support... whish I would have tested with my headphones earlier... 

[Endprodukt]

So, THEY say, the UMSA can't be the problem because it's just sending the sound to the TV without touching it. So... the last piece in the chain would be the TV itself. Is this even possible?

[krick]

I guess it's possible.

Do you have access to an other SCART capable TV to test with?

It could also the cable between the UMSA and your TV.

Do you have access to another cable, possibly from a different manufacturer for testing purposes?

[Endprodukt]

Got a new cable today, tested with another TV set and it seems to be the TV causing the problem. That's why I couldn't identify the UMSA as the problem in the beginning. I guess I can't do much about that but have to get a new TV.

[Calamity]

Got a new cable today, tested with another TV set and it seems to be the TV causing the problem. That's why I couldn't identify the UMSA as the problem in the beginning. I guess I can't do much about that but have to get a new TV.

 

That's the most unexpected result ever. I'm glad to see that at least you could find the source of the problem.