Stiffer spring for Spitfire joystick?

[UncleArgyle]

Has anyone ever replaced the spring in the Spitfire Joystick found at GroovyGameGear.com?

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=370

I'd like to stiffen up the joystick if possible.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Mike

[Nephasth]

Looks like a cross between a JLW and JLF, but since the body and restrictor look like a JLF I would try the custom springs Paradise Arcade sells: https://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/search?orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=spring

Edit: Updated link. Paradise is getting too many new products.

[RandyT]

Has anyone ever replaced the spring in the Spitfire Joystick found at GroovyGameGear.com?

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=370

I'd like to stiffen up the joystick if possible.

A word of caution;

The Spitfire, and those which are similar in design, use a hemispherical part and a socket which it is meant to slide around in.  The spring tension is part of the overall design of the assembly, and is tuned for feel and longevity of the assembly.

Increasing spring tension on this type of design has the net effect of pulling the hemispherical part more tightly into the socket, which increases friction between the two parts.  Too much tension can cause pre-mature wear, centering issues, etc.  Good lubrication is essential, but may be short lived, as the stronger tension will have the effect of pulling the hemispherical part through the lubrication, and displacing it.

Just wanted to make sure you were aware that increasing spring tension on these types of sticks is not without some consequence.

RandyT

[UncleArgyle]

Excellent. Thanks Nephasth for the link. I may just buy a couple different strengths and test them.

RandyT, thanks for the response. I don't play a lot, but the feel is too loose for my liking. If I did end up causing damage to the joystick...I would probably invest in different sticks anyway (does the omni2 have a stiffer throw?).

Thanks,

Mike.

[RandyT]

RandyT, thanks for the response. I don't play a lot, but the feel is too loose for my liking. If I did end up causing damage to the joystick...I would probably invest in different sticks anyway (does the omni2 have a stiffer throw?).

It does.  It also uses a polished, chrome plated hemispherical part, to increase lubricity and deal with the wear factor.

May I ask if the switches on your Spitfire are the "SmoothJoy" variety?  If so, they are much quieter and smoother in operation than the stock switches, but the stock switches are also more "springy".  If you can deal with the clickiness, you may want to consider the heavier switches, as this will increase the resistance on the stick, without changing the dynamic of the pivot.  The Versa-Micro switches could also be an option, as they have a higher spring tension, and are quiet.

RandyT

[Louis Tully]

.

[UncleArgyle]

May I ask if the switches on your Spitfire are the "SmoothJoy" variety?

RandyT

They do have the "SmoothJoy" option.

Interesting. I have some standard switches...maybe I'll swap some in and see if that makes a difference. Thanks for all the help.

Mike.

[armi0024]

Spitfire joysticks are a knock off Sanwa.  They are identical to the knock offs available from several other vendors for a while.  They are the same as "Fight Stick 1" we have been selling since 2009.

Since we also deal in Sanwa products I can tell you some of the differences.  One of the biggest differences is the restrictor plate(fixed restrictor unlike real Sanwa's) and the cheaper micros.  (Real Sanwa's come with Omron's on a pcb).  It is not a cross between the JLW and JLF, it is just a knock off JLF with micros that are not pcb mounted.

As far as tuning and other things.  The guys on Shoryuken tune the crap out of JLF's and other sticks, going for the "right" feel.  Is is true that the increased spring pressure will increase the friction but we are talking going from 1lb to 2-4 lbs in most cases.  Not to mention, the centering force of the spring far out ways the frictional force.

Using Smoothjoy switches, otherwise known as Zippy VM-P1B-00D0-Z Mircro Switches, will actually reduce the noise but also reduce the centering force applied by the micros.  These are maximum 20 gram rated switch, while the originals are much closer to 125.  Most of the modders on Shoryuken are using Zippy's for their sensitivity and don't like the Smoothjoys or Zippys because the lack of response in the corners. 
 
Now these aren't Sanwa sticks, they are Chinese knockoffs and there are some differences in construction.  Typically the Chinese products are not noted for diligent tuning, but more known for using low cost options (ie. the microswitches)  However, if you want to pimp a Fight Stick 1 out the way the fighters would you can do the following:
Add an octo plate
replace the micros with Cherry's
Use a 2-4 lb spring (these are available by the link below, before we offered springs most modders would use LS-55 or LS-32 springs, of note Zippyy joysticks are an LS-32 knock off)

Or if you want to really go all out....
SparkCE
Circle restrictor plate
4lb spring

Discussion about tweeking JLF style sticks is rampant on the Shoryuken forums, I can post some links if people are interested.   We had custom springs made (in Nep's link) because people were stacking stock springs and doing other things that didn't make sense to increase the spring force.  The response has been great!

[RandyT]

Springs are selected for given assemblies, by their respective manufacturers, regardless of origin, or upon which stick they are based.  Many things are taken into account, including the physical resistance of the supplied switches.  It's not simply based on cost.  Modders do all kinds of things they often don't understand the ramifications of, but are willing to take a chance on for possibly short term gain.  Changing the switches is a far less drastic means to achieve a similar result, at least where this type of pivoting means is used.

Anyone who reads these forums regularly can find several accounts of the problems I described from using the "stiffer spring option" with one of the more popular sticks out there, that also happens to be constructed  with the same pivot mechanics.  They were also unaware as to the source of their issues, and lament the maintenance requirements.

I am fully aware as to the, sometimes "over-the-top", lengths the fighter game aficionados go to mod their sticks.  They also seem to revel in often cleaning, tweaking and maintaining them .  It's probably safe to say they are not the average "birds" in this flock.

RandyT

[SteveR]

Well since we're on the subject, could one of you explain to me the difference between the spitfire/fightstick1 and the roundhouse/(fightstick2?)?

Thanks!

[armi0024]

While switches do provide resistance, they do not provide this through the whole stroke.  Using micros to make the stick feel stiffer would still leave the "sloppy" feel and is often why sticks feel sloppy.  When a stick is improperly balanced it will feel loose in the middle (relatively light spring) and then it will feel stiffer when  you contact the micros.  This transition can be minimized with light weight micros, but that will leave the stick feeling loose throughout the movement.

The Roundhouse is a knock off JLW.  We elected not to carry this stick in our store, as it's not that different in price from the JLW and the JLW (or J-stick) was a better in many ways.  There are a few other stores that do carry them, http://www.jammaparts.net/joysticks/68-fighting-red-balltop-8-way-joystick.html, is one.  There is another version of these that has a 4/8 way restrictor also(like the base model of the original JLW).

I wanted to add, that all these sticks fit different niches.  The "Roundhouse" is not a bad stick, we just decided we offering enough options in that price range and that the step up to a JLW was low cost for high gain. With joysticks you usually get what you pay for. That being said they are also a "feel" type product, and there are some nice feeling, less expensive sticks.

[UncleArgyle]

Thanks for the information armi0024!

Mike.

[RandyT]

While switches do provide resistance, they do not provide this through the whole stroke.  Using micros to make the stick feel stiffer would still leave the "sloppy" feel and is often why sticks feel sloppy.  When a stick is improperly balanced it will feel loose in the middle (relatively light spring) and then it will feel stiffer when  you contact the micros.  This transition can be minimized with light weight micros, but that will leave the stick feeling loose throughout the movement.

In the case of the Spitfire™ stick, there is very little space between the actuator and the stock switches, so the resistance is felt quickly when a switch starts to be engaged, and the higher tension continues well past the point of switch actuation.  Likewise, that tension assists in forcing the stick back to center.   The center point may not be hard and solid with the stock spring, but it also doesn't need to be.  In fact, some find the initial force required to unseat a stick from a harder center point to be detrimental to gameplay, but it's a preference thing.   As a point of reference, the often lauded WICO leaf joysticks also have a very similar bit of movement at center (especially after being used a bit), but immediately beyond this, the rubber grommet makes it feel like you've run into a wall.  Your use of the word "improperly" when talking about the sticks action, infers that your preference is superior to the desires of others.  Some folks prefer a lighter action on the stick,  while others don't.  Likewise, many want short throw and immediate actuation, while others feel that such a stick has a truncated feel.  That's why there are so many versions out there, with every one being nearly as popular with users as the other.  If this weren't the case, our catalog would be a lot smaller. 

Well since we're on the subject, could one of you explain to me the difference between the spitfire and the roundhouse?

The Roundhouse stick is a well built, very functional and sometimes overlooked option.  It's not fair to relate them to the JLW, as even though they may be similar in appearance, the play dynamic would likely not be the same, due to the engineering choices and stock switch selection made by the manufacturer.

But there are significant differences between the the Spitfire and Roundhouse sticks.  We gave them these names based on the type of game their design felt to be inspired by.  The Spitfire has a loftier, smooth feel like one would envision being well suited to playing a SHMUP, effortlessly floating around shooting it's targets.  The RoundHouse is more of a brute, and built to take serious abuse.  Smooth circular restriction, and tweakable switch actuation makes it a natural for fighters.  Of course, either can be used for all types of games.

But here's the "nitty-gritty";

Restrictors:
Spitfire: Square 8-way restrictor, optional Octagon and 4/8 way (not on the fly) restrictors.
Roundhouse: Perfectly round restriction.

Knobs:
Spitfire: Standard 6mm thread on shaft.  Compatible with the Hand-Candy, and myriad other options, including Bat-Tops.
Roundhouse:  Any color and size, as long as it's red, 35mm in diameter....and the one it comes with.  Not changeable, but nicely made.

Switches:
Spitfire:  Standard pusbutton-style switch.  No adjustment without full replacement of the switch with one having different specs.
Roundhouse:  Blade style switch.  Can be tweaked to increase or decrease sensitivity / deadzone.

Stock Shaft:
Spitfire:  Short, and thinner than most.
Roundhouse:  Longer, and beefier.

Footprint:
Spitfire:  About 20% smaller overall.  Can fit where full size sticks won't.
Roundhouse:  Full-sized, but still a bit smaller than the "American" norm.

Spring Tension:
Spitfire:  Light and smooth through the entire throw.
Roundhouse:  Stiffer, harder center point, and less smooth as a result.

Standard Dust Washer:
Spitfire:  Small diameter, simple lightly textured black finish.  Tight tolerance around shaft
Roundhouse:  Standard sized, raised manufacturers logos, loose fit.

And that about does it for these two.  Each has their place and does an admirable job, which is why they have earned a spot in our catalog.

RandyT

[SteveR]

Thanks Randy, and now that I know the technical differences I'm still not any closer to knowing which I'd prefer for my project(s). I guess I'll just have to try them both. It's interesting that you'd suggest the spitfire for shmups. I would think the "looser" actuation wouldn't be desirable for making small accurate movements. I already have a zippyy for those games, but it's intriguing. Like the man from paradise says, "feel" has a lot to do with it.

[RandyT]

Thanks Randy, and now that I know the technical differences I'm still not any closer to knowing which I'd prefer for my project(s). I guess I'll just have to try them both. It's interesting that you'd suggest the spitfire for shmups. I would think the "looser" actuation wouldn't be desirable for making small accurate movements. I already have a zippyy for those games, but it's intriguing.

Think about it this way;  A stick with hard centering requires more force to unseat the stick from the center position.  Note that I'm not talking about the actual switching center, where no switches are engaged.  I am referring to the mechanical engagement of the shaft itself.  To make a small movement with a hard centering stick, you physically need to do two things; break the centering forces, and then overcome whatever resistance might be inherent to  the switch itself.  This tends to force a playing style where the player needs to give the stick a hard tap, or several, to make such an adjustment.  This is different than the way the player would make larger movements, so there is a constant switching between the actions.  It's even worse when the two resistance points occur at different lengths in the throw of the stick, as would be the case with a Spitfire modified to a hard center with a heavier spring.    A stick with a smoother action removes the initial forces required to break the centering, and leaves only the switch itself, which one can feel in the throw of the stick.  Of course learned playing style plays a big part as well.  If you have played SHMUPS with a tight, short throw stick for the last 10 years, a stick which doesn't have those properties won't feel adequate to you.  You won't be able to use it in the way in which you are accustomed.  It doesn't mean, however, that it's not a good stick for that kind of game, or that you wouldn't excel after an adjustment period.

The major drawback with switch based sticks which use a standard, pushbutton-type micro is that the size of the deadzone cannot be changed without swapping out or physically modifying components of the stick.  This is why you see so many doing these types of mods.  The Spitfire is such a stick and has what I would consider a medium deadzone, with the stock switches, and was likely tuned this way by the manufacturer.  But I dug through my collection of switches and found a set which not only reduced the deadzone, but it also tightened up the centering considerably, all with the same spring and without altering the smoothness of the motion, as I expected.  The only caveat is a strong switch like this, is going to be louder, but after I modded it "Versa-Micro" stye, it went nearly silent while keeping the other positive aspects.  I personally like what it did for the stick, so I will see if I can get some of these as an option.  I'm going to also temporarily remove the "SmoothJoy" option for these sticks until I can offer the just mentioned approach.

If anyone, including the OP, wishes to swap the SmoothJoy switches ordered with the Spitfire, for the modified, heavier type, I will do this for a minimal shipping charge.  Just email me.

RandyT

[armi0024]

I will try to keep this civil as I'm trying to help answer a question about joysticks.  And this is an issue that our company is very invested in and spends a great deal of time working with several stick builders and manufacturers on.  This is not a personal debate, it should be informative, and statements like this:

"Your use of the word "improperly" when talking about the sticks action, infers that your preference is superior to the desires of others."

do not add to the discussion and are probably best left out of these dialogues.  I know most people would prefer a professional, even if spirited discussion that does not digress to this level.  I personally get enough of people dissecting arguments to make talking points out of insiginificant statements from watching the news and having to deal with the upcoming elections.  I would appreciate if we could keep this on topic. 

Now, onto the juicy part.

We have been doing a lot of work with some of the stick builders at Shoryuken on this issue.
Joystick selection is mostly about feel, and there are a ton of mods people try to get that feel.
To make things easier I am going to use brand names, instead of the names assigned to the Chinese knock off joysticks by vendors. For the sake of this discussion, backed up by the detailed description above, Roundhouses are similar to JLW joysticks, Spitfire/fight stick 1 are simulate to JLF joysticks, and Zippyy's are similar to LS-32 joysticks. 

I personally do not believe the Chinese manufacturers spend a great deal of time optimizing (or tuning) a design, I believe they spend more time trying to emulate an existing product, however this is my opinion and should not be taken as fact.

Ok, back, sorry I'm in Chicago... if anyone wants to catch up at Galloping ghost tomorrow

So my understanding of the history.  Sanwa JLW's and Seimitsu LS-32's were the fight sticks of choice until Sanwa came out with the JLF and it now dominates the market in fight sticks. 

In the fighting community the JLF is known as a lighter, precise, and nimble stick.  While it is by far the most popular and used by the majority of stick makers in their high end sticks, it is also the most common to be modded. 

Most of the buzz I hear from the SHMUPS community is that they like the stiffer LS-32 and some of the other Seimitsu Sticks like the LS-40 or LS-55's.  I know this is not what was said in another post but everything I have seen is that the JLF is not preferred here.  In fact, some of the most ingenious mods to increase sensitivity and increase stiffness have come from hard core SHMUPS players.  Based on my feel of the Seimitsu sticks we carry and the JLW, I would think that the SHMUPS community would be more inclined towards a JLW.

Before I go onto mods, my personal bias for an all around stick is the JLW.  I think it has the best of all worlds. 4/8 way adjustment combined with the other feel and stick throw are my favorite.  I think it feels good on classics and handles the fighters well.  This stick is available in a few different places with some modifications.  We offer the JLW, Ultimarc has their J-stick(with is a JLW), and GGG has the Omni 2(I am not sure if this is an original, or a nice imitation, but Randy added some springs and stand offs to make the restrictor rotate easily)

Now onto JLF mods, I want to touch on the possibilities, hard to capture because they are almost endless:
There are dozens of youtube videos, threads and products for modding the JLF.  Contrary to previous statements made about actuation distance this is something that can be tweaked in several different ways.  This icludes dead zone modifications. 
Start with just the micros, while the distance to contact the micro remains pretty constant regardless of who's microswitch you use, the depth of actuation is variable.  Omrons and Cherry micros tend to actuate quickly after contact, while Smooth Joy/Zippy microswtiches tend to have more throw after contact with the plunger.  Swapping the stock JLF micros out for Cherry switches is a very popular mod, and could be done on the fight sticks.  Modding micros is not benign to game play.  While this is less of an issue with primary directions, it can reduce sensitivity in the corners. 
There are also modified actuators on the market, that add 1-2 mm to the diameter of the actuator contacting the micro, thus decreasing the throw.  We are actually working on a series of these in different sizes to "dial in" peoples offset.
If you don't like micros you can go with the SparkCE or way for project Magento.  These devices eliminate the need for micros and have adjustable sensitivity based on optics or magnets. 
You want to get down and dirty? Some fighters will tweak their joystick by adding small shims to the inside of the microswitches to decrease the distance the plunger needs to be pressed befrore actuating, or you can go with a reed switch micro like the Omron reeds used in the silent JLF's (However these will generally run about 6 per microswitch).  There is also a well known Akishop mod showing how to tune your stick with electrical tape around the actuator.  This does even include the three different restrictors 4/8, ocotagon, and circle that you can do, or the line up of springs.
I'm not suggesting these are the best options for everyone, and personally I don't go for the electrical tape mod, but there is an entire world out there of ways to make these sticks feel "better". 

How does this help you decide? It doesn't, but if give you your options.  I look at this like shoes.  This is a personal fit thing, you are likely not going to get the perfect fit the first time.  Also the pair you friend thinks are the best in the world, might not fit you perfectly. 
If you ask me, I would say on a mame cabinet, with a bazillion games, go with teh JLW or LS-32, which are in my mind the best all around sticks.  If you are building a mame to play Street Fighter, I would say a JLF is for you, don't like the center play, go with a 3lb spring.  What a stick the plays MS. Pac like a champ... Get the JLW bat top, and a Wico red 10mm threaded ball top, smooth as silk.  But remember, my shoes may not fit you, and hell I have plantar fasciitis right now, so I may not know what I'm talking about at all  
My suggestion is, if you want to tweak joysticks, check out the Shoryuken forums, ask questions, and play,mod,play,mod....  Until you find what you want and make the process something fun.

[kowal]

3 months ago i buy this stick (the same like spitfire) for some test. I dont wont destroy original JLF base.
I pay for this stick 1,79$ world shipping 5,99$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-8-Way-Joystick-Fighting-Stick-Repair-Parts-for-Arcade-Gaming-/130724206953?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6fc51969

and this stick i terrible too many bug on construction
bad centring position, stick is bend on one direction,  joystick on this bug is not not playable,
is the fault pivot and shaft, hole on pivot is too large and shaft is too tiny.
ABS washer for spring It also twists the joystick,  modeled all parts on this stick is bad.
clips on base are too stiff, if you need change restrictor is regular fighting
engagement tragical, switches are tragical all is tragical on this stick
rubish!
foucs attack sell some parts for JLF and next test is on oryginal JLF base I only lose 8$

some china knockoff is still pleyable like copy super joystick/competition but i never seen good JLF clone (only ASCII)


if someone need cheap sanwa parts this guy is OK
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sanwa-Joystick-JLF-TP-8YT-with-6-Buttons-OBSF-30-arcade-jamma-game-kit-Gray-/270932112676?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f14cff524

[RandyT]

While I disagree with Kowal's final assessment, which I tend to do more often than not, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Virtually all joysticks, with some glaring exceptions, are fully functional and do the job they were intended to do just fine.  It's only when the construction or design is so poor as to physically interfere with the player and/or not function accurately, that they should be universally avoided.  There is no such thing as a "perfect joystick" simply because there are too many specialized applications, and too many personal preferences.  What works great for one player on a specific game, may not do the same for a different player or a different game.

Asessments and opinions are generally based on user experience (what one is accustomed to), and personal bias (what one prefers).  Someone who has used a WICO leaf joystick extensively and is interested in mostly classic titles, is likely to find issue with all other types, while someone who has extensively used Competition joysticks with a focus on MK or SF, would probably not be as enamored by the WICO.  It's the opinions and feedback from the customer which rules at the end of the day.  The Spitfire is a popular choice, and I have had a number of positive comments from those who have purchased it.  The nice thing about these sticks is that they are solidly constructed and can be tuned to a users's preference by doing little more than swapping some switches, if necessary, to get the desired performance.  Whether one replaces the actuator with one of a larger diameter, or uses switches with taller nubs (they are not all the same), the result is virtually the same.  The difference is that the former may not be as simple to find, or based on other design aspects of the base, may not actually be achievable.

Further, the spring can be taken out and given a small stretch to increase the centering tension, without needing to replace it.  It's far simpler to increase than to decrease tension using this method, so being that it is softer gives it a good starting point for tuning. 

Personally,  I  consider the statement questioning as to whether the Chinese manufacturers put much thought into the design of their products as something which isn't clearly thought out in itself.  They have design criterion which may or may not coincide with that of a particular individual, who is probably not privy to the reasoning, but that is not an indication that none exists.  Like anywhere in the world, there are broad differences between companies in the goals, manufacturing capabilities and talent pool behind their respective offerings.

[Nephasth]

A word of caution;

Increasing spring tension on this type of design has the net effect of pulling the hemispherical part more tightly into the socket, which increases friction between the two parts.  Too much tension can cause pre-mature wear, centering issues, etc.  Good lubrication is essential, but may be short lived, as the stronger tension will have the effect of pulling the hemispherical part through the lubrication, and displacing it.

Just wanted to make sure you were aware that increasing spring tension on these types of sticks is not without some consequence.

RandyT

Further, the spring can be taken out and given a small stretch to increase the centering tension, without needing to replace it.  It's far simpler to increase than to decrease tension using this method, so being that it is softer gives it a good starting point for tuning. 

[RandyT]

A word of caution;

Increasing spring tension on this type of design has the net effect of pulling the hemispherical part more tightly into the socket, which increases friction between the two parts.  Too much tension can cause pre-mature wear, centering issues, etc.  Good lubrication is essential, but may be short lived, as the stronger tension will have the effect of pulling the hemispherical part through the lubrication, and displacing it.

Just wanted to make sure you were aware that increasing spring tension on these types of sticks is not without some consequence.

RandyT

Further, the spring can be taken out and given a small stretch to increase the centering tension, without needing to replace it.  It's far simpler to increase than to decrease tension using this method, so being that it is softer gives it a good starting point for tuning. 

These are small adjustments.  You won't be adding the pounds of force by doing this which could create problems.  Thus, the inclusion of the words "too much" in my statement above.

[kowal]

first laws of friction

as usual... you talking a lot without any sense.
it is not gameplay preferences
 it is not problem "copy" or "original".
 it is problem "act"  or "not act"

what do you want to prove? this is still china crap for 2$ and change name on spitfire will not alter him to JLF or halfJLF

The Spitfire is a popular choice, and I have had a number of positive comments from those who have purchased it.

probably... they earlier played on brake from roundabout

The nice thing about these sticks is that they are solidly constructed and can be tuned

spitfire tuned?
OK fine!  I exchange all bad thing for correct (from JLF)
spitfire for 8$
 and tune kit:
omron PCB micro 12$
bearning 1$
shaft 3$
centring washer 1$

what I get? 
- tuned stick for 25$
now I get JLF?
- no! work better but still work strange

I can bay JLF for 24$

[RandyT]

Except that all of that isn't necessary.  If the major complaint is a loose feel, the heavier switches I installed took care of that very nicely.  They were not expensive.

This is a basic stick, that many seem to like.  It's not a JLF, regardless of the comparisons being made, and if you want a JLF, you should simply buy one.  It's much easier than trying to convert a different stick to one.

[armi0024]

Kowal, where is the love, our jlfs are less expensive than fa

I think the take away message is that this is about personal preference.

If anyone cares to do the force calculations you will find 1-2 lbs of force is insignificant when you consider the forces seen during active game play.