What do you think about my CP design?

[santiago]

Hi! I'm going to build an arcade CP, and here you got the design v1.0. What do you think about it? I'm not going to put a trackball because I can't find one in Argentina

[7 action buttons + insert coin + start] per player and 3 admin buttons (enter, exit, pause I think)



It's 75 by 30 cm (30 by 12 inches approximately)

[shponglefan]

Wow, that's almost identical to the first CP I built. 

Only thing I could suggest is possibly adding a fourth admin button (tab for menu).  Also, make sure to do a cardboard mockup to test the feel of it.

[DaveMMR]

Wow, that's almost identical to the first CP I built. 

Only thing I could suggest is possibly adding a fourth admin button (tab for menu).  Also, make sure to do a cardboard mockup to test the feel of it.

I suggest LESS admin buttons. "Enter" and "Tab" just invite others to screw with your settings and they are not needed for gameplay. Hide them or assign them to "shifted" buttons.

Otherwise looks good.

[Nephasth]

I suggest LESS admin buttons. "Enter" and "Tab" just invite others to screw with your settings and they are not needed for gameplay. Hide them or assign them to "shifted" buttons.

Otherwise looks good.

+1 on the shifted admin controls.

[mytymaus007]

Since your not putting in a trackball I would definetly put a 4 way in the middle and what about a spinner otherwise your good!

[shponglefan]

I suggest LESS admin buttons. "Enter" and "Tab" just invite others to screw with your settings and they are not needed for gameplay. Hide them or assign them to "shifted" buttons.

People actually screw with settings?  Never happened to me...

I've always found having all 4 admins handy.  YMMV.

[DaveMMR]

I suggest LESS admin buttons. "Enter" and "Tab" just invite others to screw with your settings and they are not needed for gameplay. Hide them or assign them to "shifted" buttons.

People actually screw with settings?  Never happened to me...

I've always found having all 4 admins handy.  YMMV.

If you like the convenience and never had a problem than all the better.  But, from personal observation, what I've noticed is that if there's a button on your panel, people WILL press it. And when you give it a label like "TAB" or "ENTER" people will press it twice as fast just out of stupid curiosity.

So no, most people aren't looking to screw with your settings on purpose.  But they'll inevitably call you over saying they "messed something up" when they hit TAB instead of EXIT and tried waggling the joystick and hitting other buttons randomly to get out of it and the next thing you know your emulator's UP setting is assigned to button 6.

To a lesser extent, setting buttons (e.g. admin buttons) adds more clutter to the panel that adds nothing to the actual game play and makes it all less visually appealing (and more confusing) to others.

However, you are right about the handiness of having the administration buttons at hand without having to break out a keyboard. That's why I recommend "shifting" them with the encoder so that you have access to them without losing real estate on the panel or making them easily fired by unauthorized users.   

Admin buttons have been debated and discussed to death in other threads though. Sorry for my slight derailment of this one.

[Dawgz Rule]

I used black buttons on a black control panel for TAB and ENTER which seems to work well.  EXIT and PAUSE were less of an issue.

[santiago]

Thanks to all for the replies!

Wow, that's almost identical to the first CP I built. 

Only thing I could suggest is possibly adding a fourth admin button (tab for menu).  Also, make sure to do a cardboard mockup to test the feel of it.

I suggest LESS admin buttons. "Enter" and "Tab" just invite others to screw with your settings and they are not needed for gameplay. Hide them or assign them to "shifted" buttons.

Otherwise looks good.

I forgot to mention that I'll be using a 'gamepad hack' interface, because an IPAC or something like that is way too expensive (plus the international shipping, that never worked for me). I got a couple 10-button pads that seem to be perfect for the job. So, shifted buttons cannot be placed here, right? I was going to put 2 admin buttons, but an even number of buttons in the center... Well, kinda looks bad xD

For the one that suggested the 4-way joystick, I'll be looking for one of those. The spinner is also impossible to get here, d@mn country...

[sirwoogie]

Out of curiosity, why is shipping not an option for you? Obviously the price is up a little for your distance, but are there other restrictions here (tariff, taxes, etc.)?

[santiago]

Out of curiosity, why is shipping not an option for you? Obviously the price is up a little for your distance, but are there other restrictions here (tariff, taxes, etc.)?

Well, mainly because this country have taxes (50% of the price you paid), so a 60 USD I-PAC becomes 90 USD that is around 500 ARS (1/5 of a minimum salary). Pretty expensive. And second, I have never ordered something in the USA and I'd be afraid (is normal to get thing stoled in Argentina's customs)

[paigeoliver]

My main cabinet has that EXACT button curve and I think it was a big mistake. The placement doesn't feel natural at all, and you find yourself having to look at the panel to find the buttons on titles that have more than 2.

I have found that even shifted admin controls are a no go. Put a couple of kids on the cabinet and they will pull up that config menu and promptly ruin your default configuration within 5 minutes.

I have my two admin buttons on the underside of the control panel where no one can see them.

[Xiaou2]

The Curved button layout is the most repeated mistake that builders make.

 Your Keyboard keys are not curved, and if they were, you would easily lose your place.
Its the same for Arcade buttons.

 It looks like it would be more comfy, fitting your hand better... and even looking nicer... however, it just does not work out well.   I speak from experience.

 The fingers never lay flat, and if they did, it would be hard to push the buttons at all.
Bend the fingers at the 1st knuckle, and they all line up in a near perfect line.

 Again, look at your PC Keyboard, and how comfortable it is to use naturally.


 As for a spinner, you could make one yourself with a hacked mouse. 

 Making an arcade Trackball would be a little more difficult to build, but not impossible.  Just grab a pool ball, and make some custom rollers out of wood or metal bar, and some roller bearings. Use an old ball mouse, and put the optical discs on the roller ends.

[shponglefan]

The Curved button layout is the most repeated mistake that builders make.

 Your Keyboard keys are not curved, and if they were, you would easily lose your place.
Its the same for Arcade buttons.

 It looks like it would be more comfy, fitting your hand better... and even looking nicer... however, it just does not work out well.   I speak from experience.

 The fingers never lay flat, and if they did, it would be hard to push the buttons at all.
Bend the fingers at the 1st knuckle, and they all line up in a near perfect line.

 Again, look at your PC Keyboard, and how comfortable it is to use naturally.

Speaking also from experience, I've found that putting the first row of buttons slightly lower than the rest is the most comfortable.  Since even bent, the index finger lines up below the rest of the fingers.  A lot of arcade controller companies (Qanba, Madcatz, Hori, etc) tend to do this for that very reason.

It does come down to personal preference, though.  Everyone's fingers are different.

But comparisons to keyboards is a bit silly, since ergonomic keyboards do have angled keys.  While most people type on a regular keyboard because that's what we are used to, doesn't mean it's necessarily optimal.

[Xiaou2]

If you look at Most Popular Ergonomic Keyboards, you will see that the buttons are almost always in a perfectly straight line.  

 The only thing that changes for the most part, is a split angle between the individual hands.   Meaning, half of the keyboard is angled to match the angle of that hands arm.

 

A lot of arcade controller companies (Qanba, Madcatz, Hori, etc) tend to do this for that very reason.

 Actually, Im fairly certain is was pretty much done for looks and lack of space.  Japanese control panels are very short and space is cramped.

 As for fingers, my index (2nd), and 4th finger are almost the same height when bent. Only the middle finger is slightly higher.  However, that is solved because of the layout of the fingers and hand.  The shorter fingers point towards the keys from a small angle, while the middle finger is directly vertically above the key.  The result is that all fingers easily conform to the correct shape.  This is even more so, when you are using buttons spaced apart in the typical Streetfighter 2 layout.

 Edit:

 Ok, I can see why you may want to drop only the leftmost buttons a little... and thats ONLY if you are using a 4button layout...

 If you place your fingers on your keyboard, every other key.. Trying to span 4 keys at once is a task for the large handed, and even then, isnt the most comfy.  By shifting the index finger  (1st)  one key below, keeping all the others in a straight line... the reach is lessened, and the angle of the wrist is more natural.

 However, all that said, I would Never curve the rest of the layout.  You middle finger will end up hitting the edge of the button, instead of the middle of the button, and its both uncomfortable, and at times, causes you to missfire.

 Edit 2:

 Posted Pic for reference.
 
 Also, note that even with 6 button SF layouts, that there should be very minimal spacing between the buttons. Basically, you have almost no room to turn the button nut.  Thats helps with wing-spanning all 3 buttons at once... especially if your fingers/hand is smaller... as well as keeping you from accidentally pressing dead space between the buttons.

[Dawgz Rule]

Uh-oh....Feel like I am in the movie Groundhog Day....

[PL1]

Santiago,

The answer to the "What is the best layout?" question is found using this formula:

Slagcoin layouts + printer + tape + cardboard box + buttons ==> YOUR best decision.

Not X2's, not PO's, not shponglefan's, not mine -- your best decision.

Like the eternal admin button/frankenpanel threshold/best joystick debates the question comes down to which layouts meet your requirements and which of those you like best.  DaveMMR would hate being stuck with my admin panel and I would hate being stuck with his, but both of us made the right decision for our unique circumstances. (Even if he IS wrong on this. )


Scott

[santiago]

Thanks for all the replies! I really liked the Xiaou2 layout (although I am going to try some of the Slagcoin's on cardboard)



I've made it less deep (now is around 10 inches), better or worse? Also I'm going to try making the spinner, which games use it? Thanks!

EDIT:



Same depth, the 'fourth' button now is on the right side, for pinky access. Thoughts? Also, there are 3.1 inches between joystick and first button column, should be more?

[MTPPC]

I like a hidden shift button on the underside of the control panel. Out of site, out of mind.

[Xiaou2]

although I am going to try some of the Slagcoin's on cardboard

Just remember to mount actual buttons if you do this.  I once tried putting printouts down, and they felt fine.  But after I cut up wood and put real buttons in.. it didnt feel good at all. (curved layout)

 Because cardboard isnt too strong, and the buttons are close, you might need double sheets thickness... and or possibly some nearby vertical supports in the button area so that it doesnt flex,collapse.

 The depth of the CP looks ok now, but, if you add any other controllers, it might be too short.  You do want enough room to lay your wrists down comfortably.

 I would put the spinner & 4way diagonally to the left of each joystick.  That keeps it easy to reach, and not have to lay your hands over the top of buttons or other things to get at them.

 As for Spinner games, there are tons of great ones.  Also, you can use a spinner to control many driving games as well.

 I have not tried this yet, but I had an idea for a spinner that was simply a laser style mouse, sitting next to a vertical barrel that spins.  Should be an easy build... but Ive never tested it.  You need a mouse that had good tracking, and can read even when hovering slightly off the desk, for best results.  The older Optical mice tend to be less accurate than the newer Laser mice. (thought things may have changed since)

 I also thought about the Pinky layout too.. but Ive never tested it in use.  I think the only game that Id play with 4 buttons in a row is Samuri Showdown.  The Pinky isnt the best digit for pushing buttons as its a bit weaker.  May fatigue faster or lag if its a highly used digit in the game.  Then again, you could always remap certain buttons too.  Depends on the game.

[PL1]

I'm going to try making the spinner, which games use it?

Several favorites:
Tempest
Omega Race
Puzz Loop (1 and 2)
Arkanoid (and related breakout type games)
Off the Wall
Cameltry
Star Trek - Strategic Operations Simulator
Warlords

You can substitute a spinner for these specialized controllers:
Major Havoc - Roller controller
Lunar Lander - Thrust controller

Games that have other requirements:
Tron - Triggerstick
Discs of Tron - Triggerstick, hi/low spinner  (I use a rocker footswitch for the hi/low function)
Zwackery - Triggerstick, hi/low spinner (?)
Racing games that use a 360 degree wheel - Pedals

If you plan on doing a mouse hack, forget about Arkanoid.  You'll need a TT2 or a SpinTrak to get the desired precision, unless X2's lasermouse hack works WAY better than expected.

If you try the laser mouse hack, get one that is intended for gaming.

My first attempt to make a mouse pinball launcher with an old Logitech rated at 20 inches per second (IPS) was total fail.   

When I checked specs, measured and did the math, it made perfect sense that it needed something like this G500. (I bought a used one missing the weights)

A quick twist test on my pinball shooter looks promising. The laser is reading an untreated 3/8" round aluminum shaft from Lowes/Home Depot.


Scott

[Xiaou2]

Ok, I scrolled thru an older version of mame32uifx, and used trackball as a guide... because sadly, mames controller lists is a steaming pile of Dog Crap.

 Running each one, I found the ones with Dial settings.  Even then, some of the games didnt use the dial, and had the wrong controller settings in the menu.   Certain games did however allow a spinner to be used IF you changed a dip-switch, and or a service menu setting.

 Heres the basic Spinner (dial)  list: 
(Im sure Im missing something)

APB
ARKANOID
AZTARAC
BADLANDS
BLASTEROIDS
BLOCK BLOCK
BOXING BUGS
BUGGY BOY
CAMELTRY
CAR POLO
CERBERUS
CHAMPIONSHIP SPRINT
CHANGE LANES
COSMIC CHASM
CRATER RAIDER
DANNY SULLIVANS INDY HEAT
DARK PLANET
DEAD EYE
DEMOLITION DERBY
DRIFT OUT (CHANGE DIPSWITCH)
FIRE TRUCK
FREE KICK
GIGAS
GIGAS MARK II
GRAND CHAMPION
HARD DRIVIN
HOMO
HOTROD
IMOLA GRAND PRIX
IRONMAN STEWARTS SUPER OFF-ROAD
IXION
KICK
KICKMAN
MAJOR HAVOC
MONTE CARLO
MOON WAR (proto frenzy)
MOONWAR
NIGHT DRIVER
OFF THE WALL
OMEGA RACE
PLUMP POP
POLE POSITION
POLE POSITION II
PUCHI CARAT
PUZZ LOOP (SETTINGS)
PUZZ LOOP 2 (SETTINGS)
RAZZMATAZZ
REDLINE RACER
RIDDLE OF PYTHAGORAS
ROAD BLASTERS
ROUGH RACER
SPEED FREAK
SPRINT 1,2,4,8
SQUASH
STAR TREK
STOCKER
STREET HEAT
SUBS
SUPER BUG
SUPER FREE KICK
SUPER SPEED RACE JUNIOR
SUPER SPRINT
TAC SCAN
TEETER TORTURE
TEMPEST
TOP SECRET
TOURNAMENT ARKANOID
TURBO
TWIN SQUASH
TWO TIGERS
TX-1
VICTORY
VS BLOCK BUSTER
VS HOT SMASH
WALL CRASH
WARLOARDS
WHEEL OF FORTUNE
WHEELS RUNNER
WINK
WIZ WARZ
WOLF PACK
WORLD RALLY (SETTING)
ZEKTOR
CRAZY CLOWNS
DOUBLE CHEEZE

ZWACKERY
TRON
MAD PLANETS (TS)
GHOX
DISCS OF TRON
KOSMIK KROOZER (PUSH SPINNER+TRIGGER STICK)


 Some of these games require Trigger sticks, or Pedals, & possibly shifters.

You could make pedals plug into the control panel via a wire+jack system.  Pedals could also double as buttons, however, game which require fast fire, would probably be out of the question for the slower foot presses.  (though, autofire might solve that)


 These are some of the games that use Pots, which can also be controlled with a spinner:

BLUE SHARK 
BOMB BEE
CASCADE
CIRCUS
CITY BOMBER
CLOWNS
CRUIS'N USA
CUTIE Q
D-DAY
DATSUN 280 ZZZAP
DAYTONA USA
DRIVERS EDGE
ENDURO RACER
F-1 GRAND PRIX STAR II
F1 EXAUST NOTE
FINAL LAP
FINAL LAP 2
FINAL LAP 3
FINAL LAP R
FIRE ONE
GEE BEE
GP RIDER
GREAT 1000 MILES RALLY (SETTINGS)
GRUDGE MATCH
GYPSY JUGGLER
HANG-ON
HYPER CHASE
KONOMI GT
LAGUNA RACER
LIMITED EDITION HAND-ON
M79 AMBUSH
MAX RPM
OUTRUN
OUTRUNNERS
PAPERBOY
POCKET RACER
RIDGE RACER
RIDGER RACER 2
RIP CORD
SARU-KANI-HAMU-ZOU (GREAT GAME)
SPACE WALK
STRAIGHT FLUSH
SUPER BREAKOUT
TOURNAMENT TABLE
UP SCOPE
CALIFORNIA SPEED
CHASE HQ
CHEQUERED FLAG
CISCO HEAT
CONTENENTAL CIRCUS
DIRT FOX
DOIBLE AXLE
FOUR TRAX
GRAND PRIX STAR
POWER DRIFT
ROAD RIOT
ROUND UP 5 - SUPER DELTA FORCE
SANFRANCISCO RUSH
SIDE BY SIDE
SIDE BYT SIDE 2
SLIP STREAM
SPECIAL CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION
SPEED RACER
SPEED UP
STADIUM CROSS
SUPER CHASE - CRIMINAL TERMINATION
SUPER HANGON
SUPER MONACO GP
SUZUKA 8 HOURS
SUZUKE 8 HOURS 2
TOP SPEED
TURBO OUTRUN
VIRTUA RACING
WEC LE MANS 24
WINDING HEAT
SPY HUNTER
SPY HUNTER 2
RACING HERO
CYBER CYCLES
RAD MOBILE
RAD RALLY
RADICAL BIKERS
RAVE RACER


 Some of my Fav spinner games, in no particular order:

 Star Trek
 Tac Scan
 Mad Planets
 Zektor
 kick
 Pole Position
 TX-1
 Supersprint
 Championship Spring
 Major Havok
 Turbo
 Tron

And yes, the G500 mouse is exactly the kind of mouse you would want.  At 5700dpi, its probably able to match (or exceed) Arkanoids sensitivity with ease.   And nicely enough, Logitech has the ability to increase or decrease the sensitivity via button presses / hotkeys... which you would need if you wanted to play both low-res optical games, and high-res games.

[santiago]

The guy that sells me the 8-way joystick told me that it could be use as a 4-way. I dont think he even knows about 4-way's. Nevermind.

About the spinner, thanks for all the replies, but I'm gonna leave it as 'maybe-in-the-future addon'. Maybe in the next week I'll be posting in the Projects announcements page!

[Xiaou2]

A lot of 8way sticks can be made to work as a 4way, by inverting the bottom actuator...
However... even if you do that, it wont feel or react the same as a true 'restricted' 4way.