Trying to choose buttons, joysticks and interfaces...

[shponglefan]

As discussed in this thread and this thread, I'm thinking about building an arcade stand/cabinet with detachable control panels.  Currently planning for three CPs, including a 2P fighting game controller, 3P beat-em-up, and "classic" gaming CP.

What I need is to narrow down hardware choices.

Controls:

The 3-player CP is the easiest.  It would have three joysticks and 6 buttons each player (including coin/start).  So that's ten inputs per player.  I was thinking Happ Super's plus standard Happ buttons, since I already have most of the parts.

For the 2P CP, I was thinking Sanwa JLF's for the joysticks.  For buttons, I'm less sure.  I was looking at Sanwa buttons, but after doing some research, it seems people prefer Seimitsu.  Seimitsu's would be slightly cheaper (at least if prices here in Canada are an indication), but I'm still not decided.  I also was wondering about the sizes.  I would imagine the 30mm buttons are fairly standard, although I did see some fighting controllers made w/ 24mm buttons.  Despite searching, I can't find anything on the merits of the different sizes.   Plan is to have 7 buttons (w/ two "mirrored"), plus start/coin, plus joystick switches.  So that's 12 per player.

For the classic CP, I've already figured out mostly everything except the 4-way joystick.  Likely only 12 inputs total needed.

Interfaces:

In the past I've used GGG's interface's, so I want to stick with what I know.

I plan to have each interface mounted to the underside of each panel.  Meaning, each control panel will need a seperate interface.  And I'd like to stick with USB to ensure forward compatibility.

The two interfaces I was considering were the LED Wiz+GP and the GP-Wiz40 MAX.  The GP-Wiz40 MAX would probably be ideal for the 3 player CP, since I only need 30 button inputs total (and it supports up to 32).  For the 2P, I was thinking two LED Wiz+GP's.  I haven't decided if I want to go the light-up button/stick route, but this would leave that option available.  And for the classic panel, either controller would do.

I also was planning a seperate "admin" section with 4-5 buttons.  So maybe antoher LED Wiz+GP for that, too.

Any feedback on this?  Alternative selections?  Possible interface concerns?

[PL1]

The 3-player CP is the easiest.  It would have three joysticks and 6 buttons each player (including coin/start).  So that's ten inputs per player.  I was thinking Happ Super's plus standard Happ buttons, since I already have most of the parts.

Umm. . . is that
4(joystick) + 4(buttons) + 2(coin, start) = 10/player or
4(joystick) + 6(buttons)                        = 10/player or
4(joystick) + 6(buttons) + 2(coin, start) = 12/player?

+1 on the Supers.  I modded mine with the LS-32/Zippyy upgrade switches and someone else modded theirs with Randy's Standard Soft Touch switches (with levers installed by Randy IIRC). Much quieter and softer feel to the stick.

If you aren't planning on changing them from 4 to 8-way and back by flipping the actuator, you may want to look at the Happ Competitions instead.

In the past I've used GGG's interface's, so I want to stick with what I know.

Don't be afraid to try something new.  Different companies have carved out their own niche markets for particular applications.  Make sure your application fits.  I use Randy's and Andy's encoders and the good news is that while those two sometimes argue here in the forums , their encoders don't argue with each other or Degenatron's AVR in my CP.   

I plan to have each interface mounted to the underside of each panel.  Meaning, each control panel will need a seperate interface.  And I'd like to stick with USB to ensure forward compatibility.

Sounds like a good plan.

I also was planning a seperate "admin" section with 4-5 buttons.  So maybe antoher LED Wiz+GP for that, too.

Which buttons do you want on the admin panel?


Do you want the Coin and Start buttons for P1, P2, and P3 on the admin panel?

Do you want to use LED admin buttons with inserts?

The LED Wiz+GP seems like overkill for the admin panel.
You could save quite a bit by using Degenatron's AVR encoder for your admin panel.
It is a keyboard-type encoder so you won't run into the potential problems with USB reassigning the gamepad ID.
If the default keymaps don't match your needs, Degenatron can do a custom keymap for you to match your admin panel. (Up to 20 inputs.)  Also, the AVR has a 5v output pin you can use to light the buttons. (No fancy flashing patterns, but it works.)

The two interfaces I was considering were the LED Wiz+GP and the GP-Wiz40 MAX.  The GP-Wiz40 MAX would probably be ideal for the 3 player CP, since I only need 30 button inputs total (and it supports up to 32).  For the 2P, I was thinking two LED Wiz+GP's.  I haven't decided if I want to go the light-up button/stick route, but this would leave that option available.  And for the classic panel, either controller would do.

The AVR encoder would also work perfectly with your "classic" panel. (1 Player MAME Mode.)

The down side is not having the option to do the fancy flashy lighting effects that you're already not sure if you want.

Final thoughts:
I assume you plan on enclosing your swappable panels to prevent wiring damage during handling/storage.

Consider having a small lip jutting out on the admin panel.  The recessed space underneath will allow room for a USB cable to attach to your removable panels via a USB feedthru.

Remov.    Admin Panel/Cab
---------  ------------------------
          |                |
USB F/T  -USB-cable---Hub
          |                |
---------                |
-----------------------------------

These USB A-B feedthrus are great. (Same type that Lizard Lick used to sell.) One per removable panel. Encoder plugs in on the inside. USB cable from hub plugs in on the outside, and excess cable fits into the recessed area when the panel is plugged in and latched down. Of course, you could do a Reverse Cory Bee and change his bartop + pedestal to your panel + cab, respectively.  Feet on the panel fit into recesses to keep it from sliding around.

Bonus round: you can now hook the individual panels up to any computer or take them to a friend's place.


Scott

[paigeoliver]

I don't understand why in the world you would need both a 2 player panel with 7 buttons and a 3 player panel with 6 buttons. 3 player titles are very rare, and none I am aware of use anything close to 6 buttons. It seems to me like those two panels could be combined.

If your panel layout has 2.5 spare inches to the left of any joystick you can toss a Namco reunion 4-way stick in there wired up to be the same stick as the 8-way next to it and the entire need for the classic panel goes away in one fell swoop.

Having built many machines I have found that swappable control panels are more trouble than they are worth. All the moving around of stuff invariably ends up breaking things over time.

Happ supers are a great all around stick that is very balanced in 8-way mode and is easily a better stick than either the ultimate or the competition, which is why it is happ's priciest stick of their base 3. Many resellers price it lower than the others for some reason.

[BadMouth]

To eliminate the joystick ID issues, consider unplugging the controls from the interface instead of unplugging the interface.

I like the way Paul Olson did his wiring although you wouldn't have to take it as far for your setup:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68892.0

I buy most of my stuff non-Japanese parts from GGG and have always been happy with them,
but for this I think you'd be better off using something that can handle more inputs.

Lono http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/mame-arcade-parts/359-lonotm-arcade-to-usb-20-controller-board.html
or Ipac4 http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
Personally, I'd lean toward the ipac4 because it shows up as a single keyboard and some of the oddball emulators I have only accept keyboard input.

The U-HID might have enough inputs to squeak by with one device that can handle everything including spinners and LED outputs.
It's got 50 inputs/outputs to work with.
http://www.u-hid.com/home/index.php

Your joystick selections sound right to me, based on what games each cp will focus on.

I'm putting Seimitsu buttons in my new cab, but haven't had any playing time with them yet.
The 24mm buttons were used as start buttons on original cabs.  I bought some to use as admin buttons.
I considered using them as the primary buttons so they could be closer together and easier to reach,
but they're small enough that they look silly used in that capacity.

[shponglefan]

Umm. . . is that
4(joystick) + 4(buttons) + 2(coin, start) = 10/player or

Yes, as the above.  4 'action' buttons per player, plus start and coin.

If you aren't planning on changing them from 4 to 8-way and back by flipping the actuator, you may want to look at the Happ Competitions instead.

Maybe.  I was thinking the Supers mainly because I already have a couple on hand.

Don't be afraid to try something new.  Different companies have carved out their own niche markets for particular applications.  Make sure your application fits.  I use Randy's and Andy's encoders and the good news is that while those two sometimes argue here in the forums , their encoders don't argue with each other or Degenatron's AVR in my CP.   

True, that's why I was positng to see what other people say about other options.

Which buttons do you want on the admin panel?

Esc, enter, tab and two pause buttons.

Do you want the Coin and Start buttons for P1, P2, and P3 on the admin panel?

No.

Do you want to use LED admin buttons with inserts?

Maybe, haven't decided.

You could save quite a bit by using Degenatron's AVR encoder for your admin panel.
It is a keyboard-type encoder so you won't run into the potential problems with USB reassigning the gamepad ID.
If the default keymaps don't match your needs, Degenatron can do a custom keymap for you to match your admin panel. (Up to 20 inputs.)  Also, the AVR has a 5v output pin you can use to light the buttons. (No fancy flashing patterns, but it works.)

Cool, I will look into that controller.

I assume you plan on enclosing your swappable panels to prevent wiring damage during handling/storage.

Probably, but haven't figured out all the details yet.

These USB A-B feedthrus are great. (Same type that Lizard Lick used to sell.) One per removable panel. Encoder plugs in on the inside. USB cable from hub plugs in on the outside, and excess cable fits into the recessed area when the panel is plugged in and latched down. Of course, you could do a Reverse Cory Dee and change his bartop + pedestal to your panel + cab, respectively.  Feet on the panel fit into recesses to keep it from sliding around.

Bonus round: you can now hook the individual panels up to any computer or take them to a friend's place.

Awesome, more options to investigate. 

Thanks for the detailed reply.

[shponglefan]

I don't understand why in the world you would need both a 2 player panel with 7 buttons and a 3 player panel with 6 buttons. 3 player titles are very rare, and none I am aware of use anything close to 6 buttons. It seems to me like those two panels could be combined.

no, no, it's 4 action buttons per player for the 3P, plus coin/start (6 total).  Whereas, the 2P panel would have 7 action buttons + coin and start (9 total).  I'm aware that 3-4 player games don't use more than 4 action buttons.

If your panel layout has 2.5 spare inches to the left of any joystick you can toss a Namco reunion 4-way stick in there wired up to be the same stick as the 8-way next to it and the entire need for the classic panel goes away in one fell swoop.

But I also want spinners on the 'classic' panel.  The reality of building a 3 player panel including for 2 player fighting games with optional 4 way joystick and 2 spinners, in 3 feet or less... it would be the Frankenpanel to end all Frankenpanels...

Having built many machines I have found that swappable control panels are more trouble than they are worth. All the moving around of stuff invariably ends up breaking things over time.

That's something I have to consider.  But the reality for the controls and options I want, I don't see any other way either having a giant Frakenpanel or individual panels.

[shponglefan]

To eliminate the joystick ID issues, consider unplugging the controls from the interface instead of unplugging the interface.

I like the way Paul Olson did his wiring although you wouldn't have to take it as far for your setup:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68892.0

Looking through that thread, that's a pretty sweet idea using Cat5 cables.  And I've a ton of them kicking around, too... hmmm, something to definitely consider.

My main concern is trying to make switching panels as simple and painless as possible.  I suppose Cat5 would be more challenging to wire up, but switching Cat5 cables vs USB cables doesn't sound too different at all.

I buy most of my stuff non-Japanese parts from GGG and have always been happy with them,
but for this I think you'd be better off using something that can handle more inputs.

Lono http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/mame-arcade-parts/359-lonotm-arcade-to-usb-20-controller-board.html
or Ipac4 http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
Personally, I'd lean toward the ipac4 because it shows up as a single keyboard and some of the oddball emulators I have only accept keyboard input.
The U-HID might have enough inputs to squeak by with one device that can handle everything including spinners and LED outputs.
It's got 50 inputs/outputs to work with.
http://www.u-hid.com/home/index.php

I've looked into the Ipac's before, but haven't heard about the others.  I'll have to read up on them.  

I'm putting Seimitsu buttons in my new cab, but haven't had any playing time with them yet.
The 24mm buttons were used as start buttons on original cabs.  I bought some to use as admin buttons.
I considered using them as the primary buttons so they could be closer together and easier to reach,
but they're small enough that they look silly used in that capacity.

30mm for action buttons it is.  Thanks for the feedback.

[paigeoliver]

Might want to consider a rotating panel or a double decker panel, to minimize the actual panel swapping.