Opinions on microswitches and soldering please

[nakeworks]

So I have the microswitches that came with my Ultimarc buttons and I don't like them.  It's the loud click and how hard they are to depress.  I did a search through old topics and most seemed dated so I was wondering what you guys prefer for a softer, quieter microswitch.  

Also, I have heard that soldering your connections to the MS is a better connection.  It seems so "final" to me.  What is your opinion on soldering vs. quick disconnects.  And do you prefer insulated quick disconnects?

As always, thanks.

PS.  Yes, I tried the FAQ.

[ChadTower]

There is nothing final about soldering to a switch.  A decent solderer can remove them just as quickly as if it were a QD.

I solder to all of mine because it's easier, faster, and I don't have to keep QDs in stock.

[HaRuMaN]

I'm a soldering maniac, but I always use QD's.  I like being able to change things on the fly without having to break out a soldering iron.

[nakeworks]

There is nothing final about soldering to a switch.  A decent solderer can remove them just as quickly as if it were a QD.

Definitely not included in that subset.  Thanks for the advice.  Any opinion on microswitches?

[Nephasth]

There is nothing final about soldering to a switch.  A decent solderer can remove them just as quickly as if it were a QD.
I solder to all of mine because it's easier, faster, and I don't have to keep QDs in stock.

---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. In the time it takes a soldering iron to heat up, I can have all of my QDs removed... And I can install a QD on the end of a wire just as fast as a wire can be soldered to a male QD terminal. Wires soldered to switch terminals is a big pet peeve of mine... But to each his own.

Any opinion on microswitches?

I have 50 gram microswitches on my buttons (because they were the cheapest). I'm pleased with them...

[Mysterioii]

The switches that come with groovy game gear buttons seem nice and quiet to me....  personally I don't mind a little click to my pushbuttons but I like quieter joysticks, so when I get around to redesigning my control panel I plan on moving those switches that came with the buttons onto my Magstik pluses, which are pretty noisy.

Technically soldering is a better electrical connection than crimp connections and quick disconnects in general, but for arcade pushbuttons it really doesn't matter.  Crimps and disconnects can be a source of noise especially if there's any movement or wiggle at all, but it's just not pertinent to this application IMO.  If you were wiring up data lines for a USB port or something, I'd definitely solder.  For buttons and joysticks, meh I'll just crimp on some quick connects.

Solder isn't permanent but it is more persistent of course.  Takes a little more effort but you can always reverse it if you want to.  Don't get me wrong, I solder a lot of stuff when I need to....  I just don't think you need to in this case.

[nakeworks]

I've heard the Groovy Standard Soft-Touch microswitch from Groovy Game Gear is good.  Anybody have a source or seller they prefer for softer, quieter MS.  Details please.

[ChadTower]

---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. In the time it takes a soldering iron to heat up, I can have all of my QDs removed...

It doesn't take a pencil very long to heat up.  We're talking a difference of minutes spread across a whole CP.  Putting 20 QDs on takes about the same amount of time the pencil needs to reach temp.  At that point the soldering is not all that different than slipping on QDs. 

There really isn't much difference either way in time or reliability.  I'm not arguing that soldering is better.  I'm arguing against the idea that it is worse.

[Mysterioii]

the biggest time savings would be if you ever want/need to pull them all off then replace them again.  That being said, my cab is about 7 years old and I haven't had to replace a switch yet.

It also depends on your technique....  I started out working in a civilian engineering department working for the navy many years ago and the guys that taught me were very specific on the technique and it's probably overkill for something like this.  If using stranded wire, when stripping it try to leave the cut piece of insulation on there a little bit then use it as a handle to twist the strands tight before pulling it off....  tin the wire first...  try to make a mechanical connection instead of relying on the solder, so if the eyelets you're attaching to have a hole in them make a hook in your tinned wire and put it through the hole then use needle nose pliers to pinch it closed... oh and we'd be using shrink wrap tubing over each solder joint too, don't wanna leave 'em exposed....  and so on and so forth.  Takes a lot of time to do stuff that way and it's hard to shake old habits.  Sometimes I rush things of course, but more often than not I follow at least an approximation of what was hammered into me.

So for *me* crimping on quick disconnects is a lot faster.  It's really just one of those things where you'll eventually find your own way if you do it enough.

[HaRuMaN]

A good ratcheting crimper makes a huge difference when using QD's. 

[ChadTower]

The biggest issue for me is that if I need 24 QDs I will always have 22 in stock.  Always.

[TOK]

Nearly all of the original arcade games used soldered connections because it was cheaper and less of a chance of them getting accidentally popped off in shipping/service.

I've used quick disconnects on all 3 of my MAME cabs, and just don't think its an issue for home use. I built my original cab in around 2004, and its been moved multiple times and played for hundreds (if not thousands) of hours without ever having to mess with them.

[nakeworks]

Ok, I'm set on soldering vs QD.

Can I get some ideas on switches?  Has anyone used the "Versa-Micro User-Adjustable Arcade Switch from Groovy Game Gear.  Sounds perfect but haven't heard much from anyone about it.   

[Mysterioii]

Haha seems like most people here were advocating crimp on quick disconnects and one guy advocated soldering, so you picked soldering...      No offense to anyone intended, like I said it's really up to you, but I just though that was funny...

I haven't used those "user adjustable switches" but I think the "user adjustable" part means bending the tab?  And I think that's more an issue for joysticks where someone might want a shorter throw or something.  I may be wrong about that.  But really, the ones that come with the GGG buttons seem fine to me.

[Mat]

My player buttons are GGG units with the standard microswitches (all black with"Zippy" on them).  I installed one in a Happ button for comparison.  They're definitely quieter than the Cherry units (mine are labeled KWJA0017).  Another difference is that the actuator on the microswitch is set further away from the button so there's more "take up" before you actually engage the switch.  The difference is minimal, but it's there.  Also, the switches are so light that it's difficult to tell when the transition from take up to actuation occurs.

What this means when compared to Ultimarc buttons, I don't know.  Hope it helps.

By the way, whether you solder or crimp, get a ratcheting wire stripper. 

[brad808]

+1 for solder. The better overall way to connect a wire to a micro switch in my opinion.

Sent from my Desire HD

[nakeworks]

Haha seems like most people here were advocating crimp on quick disconnects and one guy advocated soldering, so you picked soldering...      No offense to anyone intended, like I said it's really up to you, but I just though that was funny...

I don't know where you got that from "Ok, I'm set on soldering vs QD."  For the record, I think I will just stick with QD since I have a ton of those around.

[Mysterioii]

My bad, I interpreted your comment as meaning "I'm dead set on soldering now, as opposed to QD", ie. you had picked soldering as the way to go.  I guess you were just saying "I've got enough info and will mull it over, thanks...."

[nakeworks]

 

Nailed it

[PL1]

Can I get some ideas on switches?  Has anyone used the "Versa-Micro User-Adjustable Arcade Switch from Groovy Game Gear.  Sounds perfect but haven't heard much from anyone about it.   

As part of my research before placing a bulk order, I ordered one of each of GGG's microswitches: Standard Soft Touch, Premium Groovy-Micro Soft-Touch, Versa-Micro, and Micro-Leaf

I set up a test panel with all 4 side by side to test them with GGG's Arcade Prime buttons.  They were all great but I didn't notice any improvement over the Standard Soft Touch, but then I'm not a microswitch and button technique connoisseur.  The price difference sealed the deal for me. YMMV.

Your best bet is probably to set up your own test panel and try all of them. Wire the switches in parallel and play a 1 button game like Galaga w. fast shoot hack. (galagamf)


Scott

[lilshawn]

The biggest issue for me is that if I need 24 QDs I will always have 22 in stock.  Always.

guess i'd solder 1 switch then. 


Given the choice i'd crimp...but I fix arcade machines out in the field so being able to quickly change a switch is a plus.

sadly 90% of the switches out there are soldered. so it's moot for me.

[ChadTower]

sadly 90% of the switches out there are soldered. so it's moot for me.

How does that stop you from clipping the wire, crimping on a QD, filing the extra solder off the tab, and slipping the QD on?

[Mysterioii]

Could be an issue if there wasn't much slack in the wires since by cutting it off you're shortening it a bit, but it wouldn't take MUCH slack so I wouldn't expect it to be a problem.  Would just be a hassle though, another hoop to jump through.  And maybe the owner of whatever machine you're field repairing would expect you to be consistent with what was already on there.

I wouldn't have thought of filing off the solder, I'd have used an iron and a solder sucker, but if you didn't have an iron handy then yeah that's a fair compromise.

[BadMouth]

Not quite silent, but probably as good as it gets without going to leaf switches

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=92&products_id=346
or
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/microswitches/3-20-gram-micro.html

You'll still have the button plunger against the housing sound if you slam them.

I have the GGG ones.
They are a little narrower than cherry switches.  
Had to put a shim beside them when using them in a Sanwa JLF joystick.
The width doesn't make much difference for buttons.

The only thing I have to add to solder vs QD is not to use a crappy $5 crimper/wire stripper if you go with QDs.
Pick up a cheap ratcheting one from harbor freight or elsewhere.

[nakeworks]

Thanks for the tip on the ratcheting crimper. 

PL1:  I think it was you who made a thread about your comparison that I read thru but when I talked to GGG I was told that I could only get premium Soft-touch by ordering buttons.  I don't need buttons.  Was there less click with the micro-leaf?

[ChadTower]

The only thing I have to add to solder vs QD is not to use a crappy $5 crimper/wire stripper if you go with QDs.
Pick up a cheap ratcheting one from harbor freight or elsewhere.

 


These two statements do not compute.  Cannot resolve "Do not buy crappy $5 tool" and "pick up a cheap tool from Harbor Freight".

[BadMouth]

These two statements do not compute.  Cannot resolve "Do not buy crappy $5 tool" and "pick up a cheap tool from Harbor Freight".

Use the $13 racheting crimper

http://www.harborfreight.com/ratcheting-crimping-tool-97420.html


Instead of the $3.50 Stripper/Crimper

http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-four-way-crimping-tool-92410.html

You guys have tools that cost more than $15?!  

EDIT: And I didn't say not to buy the $5 tool, I just said not to use it for crimping.  
It works fine for stripping.  Oddly enough it does a decent job of cutting stove bolts also.

[ChadTower]

I've used that ratcheting crimper.  It's not a $13 tool when you have to buy three of them to get the job done.   

[Vigo]

I always find it interesting the point of view that varies on Harbor Freight. If you talk to a fan, HF is for Budget tools, you talk a non-fan, it is a store filled with worthless piles of crap. I like to think I am good enough at knowing which tools are worth getting and which to pass on. I have never had a HF tool break on me, or even one under-perform. I guess I instinctually know what to stay away from.

Thanks for the tip on the ratcheting crimper. 

PL1:  I think it was you who made a thread about your comparison that I read thru but when I talked to GGG I was told that I could only get premium Soft-touch by ordering buttons.  I don't need buttons.  Was there less click with the micro-leaf?

I think you can buy the Paradise arcade 20 grams individually though. I think the Micro-leafs are click-free and smooth, but will change the feel of the button. You might like it better, or it might feel too "empty" of a press for you.

[Nephasth]

I've used that ratcheting crimper.  It's not a $13 tool when you have to buy three of them to get the job done.   

What job are you doing that you need 3? I've used mine for over 3,000 crimps for various projects. Never had a problem...

[ChadTower]

What job are you doing that you need 3? I've used mine for over 3,000 crimps for various projects. Never had a problem...

Harbor Freight hand tools fall apart if you sneeze at them.  I tried using them for a while but too many fell apart on first use.  The rest would last maybe ten uses.

[Nephasth]

Well, you know what they say... you've got to be 10% smarter than what you're working with...

[BadMouth]

I've had mixed results from HF tools.  In the couple cases that I wasn't happy, the reviews were dead-on.  I absolutely hate the $20 laminate trimmer, but then again I was trying to use it as a router.  The $2 bar clamps with plastic ends didn't last long.

 I've been blown away by the titanium nitride coated drill bits.  They cut faster and last longer than the Porter Cable and Dewalt drill bits that cost a lot more.  If you buy the cheap high carbon steel ones, you get what you pay for.

Like Vigo said, you have to know what you're buying.

What has always cracked me up about harbor freight is that everything is made in China specifically for them, but they go to great lengths to give all the products american sounding names.  (Pittsburgh Steel hand tools, American General air tools, Chicago Electric power tools).

[Vigo]

What has always cracked me up about harbor freight is that everything is made in China specifically for them, but they go to great lengths to give all the products american sounding names.  (Pittsburgh Steel hand tools, American General air tools, Chicago Electric power tools).

  I never thought about that one before.

[PL1]

I think the Micro-leafs are click-free and smooth, but will change the feel of the button. You might like it better, or it might feel too "empty" of a press for you.

Well said, Vigo.   

PL1:  I think it was you who made a thread about your comparison that I read thru but when I talked to GGG I was told that I could only get premium Soft-touch by ordering buttons.  I don't need buttons.  Was there less click with the micro-leaf?

If you want to test drive a Premium Soft Touch switch, just order one with an Arcade Prime/Spectralite/Chromalite button along with the other switches you want to compare.

If you like the Premiums and Randy won't work a deal with you to sell them separately, just order them with the Arcade Primes or Spectralites/Chromalites that you can use as admin buttons for this and later builds.

NOTE: Micro Leafs use .110 QDs that point "down"-- could be a concern in a shallow enclosure.

The Premium Soft Touch definitely has more click than the Micro Leaf.

Is the "click" your main concern or the "feel"?

If the click is what you dislike and none of the options above work for you, you might look into the Rollie Leaf Switches for pushbuttons, or look into getting real leaf switches.

In the constant argument over, "Which switch/button/joystick/spinner/trackball is best?" The answer is always filtered through the perceptions and preferences of the eye of the beholder, making "The one you like best." the correct answer.  If you want to be sure, run a comparison and post your results.  Doing this with buttons or switches won't break the bank.


Scott

[nakeworks]

If you want to test drive a Premium Soft Touch switch, just order one with an Arcade Prime/Spectralite/Chromalite button along with the other switches you want to compare.

If you like the Premiums and Randy won't work a deal with you to sell them separately, just order them with the Arcade Primes or Spectralites/Chromalites that you can use as admin buttons for this and later builds.

NOTE: Micro Leafs use .110 QDs that point "down"-- could be a concern in a shallow enclosure.

The Premium Soft Touch definitely has more click than the Micro Leaf.

Is the "click" your main concern or the "feel"?

If the click is what you dislike and none of the options above work for you, you might look into the Rollie Leaf Switches for pushbuttons, or look into getting real leaf switches.

In the constant argument over, "Which switch/button/joystick/spinner/trackball is best?" The answer is always filtered through the perceptions and preferences of the eye of the beholder, making "The one you like best." the correct answer.  If you want to be sure, run a comparison and post your results.  Doing this with buttons or switches won't break the bank.


Scott

Love the details guys, thanks.  While the "click" is a major annoyance, my main concern is how hard it is to depress the plunger.  I'm going to do like you said and order several types to decide what I like the best. 

On a side note, does anyone use the right-angle quick disconnects?  Usually I just use the straight ones but after seeing these at my local electronic store I'm intrigued.  Also, any feelings/opinions on insulated vs non-insulated QDs?

[TopJimmyCooks]

Hey Nake, In your line of work you've obviously got the dexterity for soldering.  Don't be afraid to go for it.  I learned with a huge weller soldering gun when I was a kid and have honed my technique lately by watching youtube instruction videos.  You'll be lifting traces on boards in no time.

I use qd's when the equipment has spade lugs to receive them.  You don't need fully insulated QD's for arcade switches, the terminals are far enough apart that it's not an issue.  I use insulated and non according to the situation. 

I have several different types of microswitch buttons, and I really like my Microleafs from GGG.  +1 for them.  light plunge resistance and basically silent. 

[nakeworks]

Hey Nake, In your line of work you've obviously got the dexterity for soldering.  Don't be afraid to go for it.  I learned with a huge weller soldering gun when I was a kid and have honed my technique lately by watching youtube instruction videos.  You'll be lifting traces on boards in no time.

I use qd's when the equipment has spade lugs to receive them.  You don't need fully insulated QD's for arcade switches, the terminals are far enough apart that it's not an issue.  I use insulated and non according to the situation. 

I have several different types of microswitch buttons, and I really like my Microleafs from GGG.  +1 for them.  light plunge resistance and basically silent. 

Hey David.  I was wondering where you were hiding.  I probably don't need to tell you that skill levels for doctors/surgeons vary wildly.  That's not to say that my skills are lacking, just not much experience using the soldering iron on my patients.   Yet

I am ordering several types, the microleafs included. 

[CoryBee]

 


[/quote]

just not much experience using the soldering iron on my patients.   Yet

I am ordering several types, the microleafs included. 
[/quote]

I don't have much input on the types of micro switches out there, I have only purchase two types of buttons. But I would weigh heavy on soldering over QD, not for reliability but for pure enjoyment. I have been doing electronics for several years and I love soldering, something about the flowing metal and making things with my hands is quite relaxing. I have created some pretty useless things just to make an excuse to solder away. Not too long ago I put together an mp3 player, amp, and some reed switches on the volume buttons to add music to the bathroom......yea



Anyways, I like to thread the wire through the little holes on the switches and twist then solder. I do this for all my arcade buttons.

[jasonbar]

Quick disconnects for all buttons & sticks on my cab!)

(Though I might be arriving too late to the party to matter...)

[mgb]

I've heard the Groovy Standard Soft-Touch microswitch from Groovy Game Gear is good.  Anybody have a source or seller they prefer for softer, quieter MS.  Details please.

I have the soft touch switches in a Sanwa Jlw and I love them. they are silent. I also have the cherry switches that typically come in a Happ super and they are very nice too.

I agree with alot of the others here too on the soldering thing. I have no problem soldering, I do it all the time but I really don't see much of a need for soldering to the switches. I do alot of arcade work for others and many times the soldered switches are the fault. Crimps are perfectly fine as long as they are the correct size and are tight enough. Also keep a few extra switches because they can fail on you

[brad808]

Some people actually use the correct size quick connects? Hmm must just be all the dumb people around here that do this


Sent from my Desire HD

[TopJimmyCooks]

That QD is the right size for that terminal, it's just bent up. 

[brad808]

That QD is the right size for that terminal, it's just bent up. 

Yea your right. It's still gonna get a repair job using solder though 

[lilshawn]

no, your supposed to get the too small ones and stretch them out with needle nose pliers to make them fit.

oh and can sombody please make them crimpless with a one way friction fit connection so i can plug the wire in and be done?

[nakeworks]

I took the advice of PL1 and ordered a bunch of different switches and will test them out.  Here is what I ordered:

Paradise Arcade:
-Cherry pushbutton MS
-20 gram MS
-50 gram MS
-125 gram MS
-Rollie Leaf swithc

Groovy Game Gear:
-groovy standard soft-touch
-micro leaf
-versa-micro user adjustable

I'll let you know which ones I settle on.  Thanks for all the help guys 

[Mysterioii]

Some people actually use the correct size quick connects? Hmm must just be all the dumb people around here that do this


Sent from my Desire HD

I know I'm gonna get ripped but I actually wired my whole CP (8 years ago) using the wrong sized disconnects.  They were what I had on hand and I wanted to wire it up that night.  I found that I could wedge them on there in such a way that I was satisfied that they weren't going anywhere but I could still take them off if I needed to.

It was a judgement call sort of thing, I was well aware of what I was doing, and if I wasn't satisfied with the connection I wouldn't have gone any further.  BTW I've got my MENG and two PE licenses and at the time had about 10 years or so under my belt doing EE for Naval systems as a civilian so no way would I have done that for a customer or work project, I know the importance of going by the specs in those situations, but when it's for personal consumption sometimes you gotta fly by the seat of your pants.  I've done lots of things around the house that aren't exactly "code" but I still sleep well at night...   

[Nephasth]

I know the importance of going by the specs in those situations, but when it's for personal consumption sometimes you gotta fly by the seat of your pants.  I've done lots of things around the house that aren't exactly "code" but I still sleep well at night...   

Damn. I have a pretty high standard for the work I do for other people, but when it comes to the work I do for myself, I go above and beyond that standard...

[Mysterioii]

I know the importance of going by the specs in those situations, but when it's for personal consumption sometimes you gotta fly by the seat of your pants.  I've done lots of things around the house that aren't exactly "code" but I still sleep well at night...  

Damn. I have a pretty high standard for the work I do for other people, but when it comes to the work I do for myself, I go above and beyond that standard...

Hey now let's not read this wrong, I have a VERY high standard for the work that I do for myself.  And that's why I had to be satisfied that those connections weren't coming loose.  I am perfectly satisfied, and in 8 years have had no issues at all with them.  Now, when I rebuild it (hopefully soon) I will have the correct ones on hand to begin with.  To give a little more backstory, I got my cabinet kit AND a poker table kit from mameroom.com about a week before we were having a huge Christmas party at my house, and I wanted to have both of them assembled before the party (while taking care of all the other crap too).  Some concessions had to be made, but not to a level I was dissatisfied with.  I was satisfied.  I feel that I have enough training and experience to know when something is electrically sound and when it is not.  Remember, I'm the guy who shrinkwraps everything and hooks all my tinned wires before soldering them together to improve the mechanical connection whenever possible.  

I'll give another example....  in my state, it is electrical code that any wire junctions inside a wall cavity have to be capped by a removable outlet cover.  In my current home, the previous homeowner thought it would be a great idea to have a power outlet 6 feet off the ground right in the center of the wall behind where his entertainment center was.  Well, my entertainment center was not the same as his, and if I left that outlet or capped it with a cover it would have been right in the middle of everyone's eye line.  I pulled the wires from the outlet, covered each wire with it's own wire nut, electrical taped the hell out of each one, rolled it up, tucked it all in the wall and patched the hole completely.  It's invisible.  It's not remotely up to code, and I'm perfectly happy.  Those things are not coming loose and I sleep well at night, without having to look at an outlet cover floating in the middle of the wall.

Previous owners at my old house were an old couple who felt the need for a corded phone in the main bathroom.  I didn't share that need, so that one got removed and patched over too.  Again, not code in my neck of the woods.  Will never be a problem.

[BadMouth]

TWIST AND TAPE BABY!!! 

[TopJimmyCooks]

 . . .  covered each wire with it's own wire nut, electrical taped the hell out of each one, rolled it up, tucked it all in the wall and patched the hole completely.  It's invisible.  It's not remotely up to code, and I'm perfectly happy.  Those things are not coming loose and I sleep well at night, without having to look at an outlet cover floating in the middle of the wall.

I think you're fine by code (NEC/IBC based) if you just go into the crawlspace or attic and kill the feed to that wire.  OK to abandon and cover wiring in place.  just go to the next box or whatever that it connects to, or to the panel if its a home run, pull it out and label it as abandoned and you'll sleep even better. 

[CheffoJeffo]

I'll give another example....  in my state, it is electrical code that any wire junctions inside a wall cavity have to be capped by a removable outlet cover.  In my current home, the previous homeowner thought it would be a great idea to have a power outlet 6 feet off the ground right in the center of the wall behind where his entertainment center was.  Well, my entertainment center was not the same as his, and if I left that outlet or capped it with a cover it would have been right in the middle of everyone's eye line.  I pulled the wires from the outlet, covered each wire with it's own wire nut, electrical taped the hell out of each one, rolled it up, tucked it all in the wall and patched the hole completely.  It's invisible.  It's not remotely up to code, and I'm perfectly happy.  Those things are not coming loose and I sleep well at night, without having to look at an outlet cover floating in the middle of the wall.

Problem is that you have now left yourself open to a potential liability when you resell ... or are potentially being a dick to the next buyer.

I have had to deal with a bunch of these stupid "I know code, but this is fine" issues since I bought this most recent house some time ago (12 years).

Apparently these arcade machine things may require upgrades to your electrical system ...mine is an older home and I wanted some extra lines, so I upgraded the panel.

When I upgraded the panel, I had some unpleasant surprises hidden within the walls. All of which are, by my judgement, safe, but fail code, so *I* had to repair his "perfectly-safe-but-not-up-to-code" work in order to proceed with the real stuff I wanted to do.

Guess who had to do the work and pay for the parts of the work that I didn't do ?

Yep, not the guy who slept fine knowing that things would work the way he wanted them.

[Mysterioii]

Hi Chef.  First off, I have not dealt with you directly before, but I have read lots of your posts and have a general respect for your knowledge and opinions.  Not looking to cross swords with anyone, and of course you're entitled to your opinion.

I am, however, completely comfortable with what I have done, and can honestly say that my house is much improved from where it started.  We have no plans to sell, but if we do, I'll be fine.  I can always track down the distal end of those wires and disconnect them, but that might require cutting a few holes in my wall.  Didn't wanna do that at this time, and I'm comfortable.  There's more insulation on the ends of those wires than there is along the length of them, and it's not going anywhere.

There are so many things that should have been taken care of by OUR previous owner, that we have since corrected (or have identified and will soon correct).  Our ---smurfy--- home inspector missed several things; some small, some fairly big dollar issues.  Our previous owner was a 40ish mother of two little girls who had recently lost her husband to cancer...  we probably could have pursued some compensation for some "undisclosed issues" but out of the goodness of our hearts we just let things go, even though we're out thousands on a couple of the bigger problems.  Yes, if we ever sell I'm sure our buyer won't be as understanding, but again, I'm comfortable.  I've got one plumbing modification that I know is probably not up to code, but knowing that I designed it so it can easily be cut out, capped and brought up to code when/if it becomes necessary.  And I'm fully prepared to do it myself.  In my opinion this modification is crucial...  the water/sewer dept in our area should never have allowed our home to be built at the elevation it is because we're too low with respect to the pump station across from us so we are at risk of "backflow" whenever there are heavy rains...  My mod is almost assuredly not "code" but I had to take proactive steps to protect my family and my home because I simply will not allow my little girl to have a risk of being exposed to other people's waste water just because the sewer district and the builder cocked things up.  Like most engineers, I over-engineer pretty much everything.  Throw in a rebuilt roof to eliminate some chronic leaking issues, a new deck 4 times as big as the old one (put in by pros, not by me), and hardwood floors on the whole first level replacing some crummy old tile, and I guarantee my home is in far better condition than when we started.

Because of said plumbing issues I even built a home monitor/water detector system that monitors for leakage in 8 different places in the basement and will send me a text and emails to multiple accounts whenever an issue is detected...  And acts as a server so I can check the status on a web page from anywhere in the world whenever I need to.  It connects directly to the internet, no PC needed.  As long as my cable modem and router are on, I'm good.  The whole thing is on a battery backup, and I hacked one input line to the signal for the "on battery" buzzer on the UPS so I get an alert whenever the system is running on backup.  We have an emergency shutoff valve on the main sewer line in case of flooding issues and I put tilt switches on that, so I can cut power to the basement sewage ejector pump whenever the valve is closed to keep from pumping poop water into a closed sewer system (otherwise it's coming out the drains... not good).  Got an RGB LED indicator by the garage door to tell me when water is detected, or the valve is closed, or both, or everything is A-OK.  Got a buzzer in the cold air return right by the master bedroom to wake me up at night in case we get a leak while we're asleep.  Got a temp and humidity sensor on there too... mostly just for fun but since it's located right next to the hot water heaters it should see a temp and humidity spike if one of the pressure-temp valves decides to dump.  It's tight.  And I sleep much better knowing that I've got that in place.

I'm not gonna go jacking things up for myself or anyone else.  I'm not putting pennies in the fuse box, figuratively or literally.  I'm not replacing the ground fault interrupt outlets in the bathrooms with regular ones.  Believe me, I am actually PARANOID about things going wrong.  In this one thing, I am comfortable.  I know how to contain 120V sir.  Just the wire nuts themselves would really have sufficed but out of paranoia they have been mummified within about a third of a roll of electrical tape...  No harm is being done.

[CheffoJeffo]

Slow down a minute ... I am not questioning the safety aspect in any way.

 I agree that you are safe, although I might have chipped enough wallboard out so I could seal the box.

I'm not gonna go jacking things up for myself or anyone else.  I'm not putting pennies in the fuse box, figuratively or literally.  I'm not replacing the ground fault interrupt outlets in the bathrooms with regular ones.  Believe me, I am actually PARANOID about things going wrong.  In this one thing, I am comfortable.  I know how to contain 120V sir.  Just the wire nuts themselves would really have sufficed but out of paranoia they have been mummified within about a third of a roll of electrical tape...  No harm is being done.

At this point, the harm is purely potential and, to my mind is entirely monetary for the next owner in the event that an overzealous inspector finds the hidden circuit. That happened to me and I had to trace every ---smurfing--- wire in the house to every ---smurfing--- termination point. The previous owner was actually a friend of the family and we had doen electrical work together before. I know what he did was safe ... it just wasn't what was required to keep from ---smurfing--- me over with respect to the authorities.

I am not making a judgement on your knowledge or the safety of your work ... just pointing out that you could be ---smurfing--- somebody else by not doing the "proper" thing and killing and capping the entire circuit.

In a nation where restaurants can be sued for serving hot coffee, you might want to think about the legal aspects -- you already have the safety aspects covered.

Here it is against the rules to sell a house if you have knowingly modified against code ... I suspect you have the same, likely harsher, laws down there.

[nakeworks]

If your electrical wiring isn't humming you don't have enough games plugged in.

now you're talking

[Mysterioii]

Slow down a minute ... I am not questioning the safety aspect in any way.

 I agree that you are safe, although I might have chipped enough wallboard out so I could seal the box.

I'm not gonna go jacking things up for myself or anyone else.  I'm not putting pennies in the fuse box, figuratively or literally.  I'm not replacing the ground fault interrupt outlets in the bathrooms with regular ones.  Believe me, I am actually PARANOID about things going wrong.  In this one thing, I am comfortable.  I know how to contain 120V sir.  Just the wire nuts themselves would really have sufficed but out of paranoia they have been mummified within about a third of a roll of electrical tape...  No harm is being done.

At this point, the harm is purely potential and, to my mind is entirely monetary for the next owner in the event that an overzealous inspector finds the hidden circuit. That happened to me and I had to trace every ---smurfing--- wire in the house to every ---smurfing--- termination point. The previous owner was actually a friend of the family and we had doen electrical work together before. I know what he did was safe ... it just wasn't what was required to keep from ---smurfing--- me over with respect to the authorities.

I am not making a judgement on your knowledge or the safety of your work ... just pointing out that you could be ---smurfing--- somebody else by not doing the "proper" thing and killing and capping the entire circuit.

In a nation where restaurants can be sued for serving hot coffee, you might want to think about the legal aspects -- you already have the safety aspects covered.

Here it is against the rules to sell a house if you have knowingly modified against code ... I suspect you have the same, likely harsher, laws down there.

Well Chef, I suppose I will concede that you are probably technically correct.  At this point in time I am not particularly worried about it.  I'm fully prepared to remove and cap my "plumbing customizations" if we ever sell (on a positive note our sewer district is supposedly building a new pump station far down a hill from us to which we will be connected in 2015, eliminating our pump station altogether and remedying that unpleasant situation... just have to wait out a few more years there...)  We have no plans to sell but if we ever do I might try to find the other end of that wire.  No promises though.     It is in the basement and there is no attic/crawlspace access...  I *suspect* it's tied to one of two nearby outlets, but if I pull them and find no connection then it would be a matter of knocking holes in the wall.  Not gonna tackle that one now.

I appreciate your POV though.   

[CheffoJeffo]