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Author Topic: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver  (Read 11666 times)

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Clark Kent

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I also do not fully understand the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and the GroovyMAME CRT drivers.

Is the crt_emudriver_9.3_1.2a_xp32_multisync.rar driver for my AMD X4 640 processor and ATI Radeon HD 4850 the right one to drive my Hantarex 9110 monitor for all arcade related programs (MAME, PCSX2, Dolphin, Retrogames, etc.) or is it for MAME only?

Or is it the better solution to use soft15kHz with the original drivers?

I'm a little bit confused here...

Edit: By the way - I would like to use the arcade monitor as primary display and the pc-monitor as extended desktop with a higher resolution for configuration purposes. Perfect sync would only be necessary on arcade monitor.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 05:23:43 am by Calamity »

Calamity

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 06:34:08 am »
Yes, there's some confusion about this I'm afraid. So here's a brief explanation for new comers.

Soft-15Khz and CRT_Emudriver use the EXACT same method to install 15Khz modelines in the system, so they're much the same thing. As a matter of fact, I used Sailorsat's excellent documentation on ATI drivers as a reference. This method works by adding the required data to the video driver's registry, so no software needs to be loaded once the modelines are installed.

The main difference is that Soft-15Khz adds the modelines after driver installation (thus, it works for most driver versions), while CRT_Emudriver already includes the modelines in the driver's inf file so they get installed right at the moment the driver is installed.

I didn't create the CRT_Emudriver as a replacement for Soft-15Khz. It started as a replacement for the ArcadeVGA I drivers, to add support for Irem games modelines. At that point neither Soft-15Khz nor Winmodelines had support for the ArcadeVGA. I added a modeline generator that let the user customize the modeline list that would get installed with the driver. The idea was to provide an easy to use method to help ArcadeVGA users customize their setup by just installing new drivers. The modeline generator was a MAME ini generator at the same time because I was unhappy with AVRes and MAME Res Tool. Then of course it became obvious that it was possible to extend this functionallity to other ATI chipsets by using a generic Catalyst driver as the base.

Later the basic original modeline generator grew by adding new options, including the possibility to update the modelines after driver installation, and I renamed it as VMMaker. Unfortunately as new functionallities were added it became more and more complicated to use. But this is the price you have to pay I'm afraid.

In paralell to this, I struggled to override some annoying limitations to the ATI drivers, as increasing the total number of different modelines the drivers can support. Of course, to benefit from this you need to use the specific hacked drivers (CRT_Emudriver).

Some facts:

- If you install CRT_Emudriver, you don't really need Soft-15Khz as you already have 15 Khz modes available right after driver installation.

- Soft-15Khz and VMMaker are modeline INSTALLERS

- VMMaker is a modeline INSTALLER + GENERATOR, and it can create MAME inis too

- Soft-15Khz is MUCH EASIER and NICER to use than VMMaker, but you if you want new modelines you need to add them manually

- You can use VMMaker as a standalone modeline generator to create modelines for Soft-15Khz, including non-ATI cards.

- You can use Soft-15Khz with nearly ANY Catalyst version (probably newer ones than CRT_Emudriver), but will be limited to 60 total modelines

- You can use Soft-15Khz over CRT_Emudriver, to benefit from the extended features (120 total modelines) combined with Soft-15Khz usability

- Soft-15Khz is better for novice users

- VMMaker advantages can only be understood once you have suffered the limitations of the other methods.

- VMMaker creates a mode table that's perfect for GroovyMAME

- Soft-15Khz mode table can be used for GroovyMAME but it won't be that good, and 321x and 401x video modes will fool GroovyMAME (this should get fixed anyway)

Quote
Is the crt_emudriver_9.3_1.2a_xp32_multisync.rar driver for my AMD X4 640 processor and ATI Radeon HD 4850 the right one to drive my Hantarex 9110 monitor for all arcade related programs (MAME, PCSX2, Dolphin, Retrogames, etc.) or is it for MAME only?

Yes, you can use it for all your arcade related programs and that card is supported.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Paradroid

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2012, 08:07:56 am »
Excellent write up Calamity! Thanks for taking the time.

Of course, by this stage, I pieced most of this info together for myself but it's great to have all of this in one easy to read post as many people often ask about "Soft 15-kHz vs. CRT_EmuDriver".

Well done. :)
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

Clark Kent

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2012, 08:40:37 am »
Thank you VERY VERY much for that really exact informations! :)

The only thing I'm not totally certain is how to do that with the combination of my arcade-monitor as primary display via the DVI-display port (with a VGA-adapter) for all arcade related stuff and the PC-monitor via second DVI-display port as extended desktop with a higher resolution then on the primary display. Is there any recommended method configuring this?

You know it's very easy with my ArcadeVGA 2-graphics card as display is cloned and I do not have to think about extended desktop or such things but as the new configuration with the CRT_Emudriver is a little bit different it's virgin territory for me...

Thanx again!

Calamity

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2012, 11:15:15 am »
You know it's very easy with my ArcadeVGA 2-graphics card as display is cloned and I do not have to think about extended desktop or such things but as the new configuration with the CRT_Emudriver is a little bit different it's virgin territory for me...

Cloning your display is a *very* bad idea unless you have the same monitor type and resolution attached to each output. Enabling an extended desktop is done through the Windows XP Display Properties dialog, it's really straightforward, just select the right resolution for the secondary monitor (PC monitor).
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Clark Kent

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2012, 05:18:43 pm »
OK, cloning with your drivers is bad. I understand that. I know that I have to use different resolutions and sync rates for each type of monitor. Be sure I'm using a JPAC just to be on the sure side...

Nevertheless ArcadeVGA (at least my version 2) does clone ok. With 15kHz on my arcade monitor and with 31kHz on my PC monitor, same resolution and same picture on both monitors but different sync rates on each one. This is one feature of the ArcadeVGA graphics card I like the most...


Calamity

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 12:32:57 pm »
OK, cloning with your drivers is bad. I understand that. I know that I have to use different resolutions and sync rates for each type of monitor. Be sure I'm using a JPAC just to be on the sure side...

Nevertheless ArcadeVGA (at least my version 2) does clone ok. With 15kHz on my arcade monitor and with 31kHz on my PC monitor, same resolution and same picture on both monitors but different sync rates on each one. This is one feature of the ArcadeVGA graphics card I like the most...

To be honest I haven't given a chance to the cloning feature since years, it seemed to virtualize both displays in a way that made impossible to access individual vsync information for each output. Anyway it's been long since I tested this. I know some users here have succesfully used the cloning feature with perfect vsync support, but they used the same type of monitor in both outputs.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Clark Kent

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 02:52:28 am »
Sure you are right. But in my special case I do not really need separate resolutions for each monitor - only different frequencies. My arcade monitor displays every resolution I set in 15kHz, my PC-monitor always the same resolution as the arcade-monitor but in 31kHz (as my PC monitor can display all low resolutions). That's a good solution for me.

But on the other hand it might be cool to have all arcade resolutions on the arcade monitor only and on the PC monitor always 1280x1024 (native resolution of my screen). I've to try that before I can tell if this is nice for me...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 03:04:41 am by Clark Kent »

arcadeswede

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 01:12:53 pm »
So if I'm just about to start getting my mame PC to do 15khz with a arcade monitor or crt TV,  and I want to use soft 15khz (instead of CRT emu driver) but use vmmaker, groovymame+switchres for the rest.

How would that installation process look like?


Calamity

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 02:24:28 pm »
and I want to use soft 15khz (instead of CRT emu driver) but use vmmaker,

You either use Soft-15khz or VMMaker, not both. There are more things that can fail than you imagine, keep friction low and follow the guides.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

arcadeswede

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2015, 04:36:07 pm »
Ok, thank you!
The reason I ask is because there's this soft 15khz EDID dongel. Will this adapter work as well with CRT emu drivers and vmmaker?

Calamity

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2015, 04:44:42 pm »
Ok, thank you!
The reason I ask is because there's this soft 15khz EDID dongel. Will this adapter work as well with CRT emu drivers and vmmaker?

The dongle works regardless of the driver, but it doesn't work as you may be expecting with ATI cards. It won't allow you to use modern ATI cards with Soft-15khz/VMMaker/GroovyMAME if that's what you want.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

arcadeswede

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2015, 05:15:57 pm »

Quote
The dongle works regardless of the driver, but it doesn't work as you may be expecting with ATI cards. It won't allow you to use modern ATI cards with Soft-15khz/VMMaker/GroovyMAME if that's what you want.

I have a ASUS EB1501 mini PC (NVIDIA ION graphics) and I was hoping that I could use the 15khz EDID dongle and somehow get it to display 15khz.

But I'm guessing I'm better of with a desktop computer with a dedicated ATI graphics card?

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2015, 05:31:04 pm »
Getting a 15 kHz output is actually the easiest part of the problem, you can achieve it in several ways. What we need is on-the-fly custom video, and there's now way to do it through EDID tricks.
 
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 05:42:45 pm »
Thank you so much for all the answers.
Really appreciate it!

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2017, 09:56:28 am »
Hi everyone!

Been scouring this forum from time to time (and mostly ended up more confused then to begin with) :P 

So. I have a short question (and this looks like a newest topic!

I have CRT TV (Sony 29")  And it has an RGB SCART input.   I've already connected my Raspberry Pi 3 with it, but the composite is just awful.  To make sure it's the connection and not the TV I've tried with SCART RGB connecting a DVB-T and also a DVD player and picture look perfect (the only really bad part of the composite was constant "strobe" effect on some colors on some content. While some games look awesome, some look like crap lol because of it.


So, my question is.    I have an S1155 motherboard with a Intel G530 (I can always upgrade to something more speedy, but almost everything works now anyway).

So I'm waiting for this card to arrive
http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/products/graphics_cards/p_series/p690pciex16/

And I've also ordered
http://arcadeforge.net/UMSA/UMSA-Ultimate-SCART-Adapter::57.html

together with:
Soft15KhzDongle:


Will this work to properly show in the best quality the picture in 15KHz?     I'm afraid I jumped on a great offer for the graphics card automatically because I remember from long ago that Matrox is absolutely the king when it comes to VGA analog output.

buttersoft

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Re: What's the difference between Sailorsat's soft15kHz and CRT_Emudriver
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2017, 08:54:02 pm »
Might not be the right forum, given there's nothing about crt_emudriver in your question, so let's change that and give it a plug :)

I reckon that ancient card + dongle will work. But that's a guess. Installing soft15kHz is no guarantee the modes will actually output. It's really up to the Matrox drivers, and whoo boy those must be an arcane subject.

IMO the easiest way to get 15kHz RGBHV out of a windows PC (highest quality signal available here) is using crt_emudriver and a compatible AMD Radeon HD 5000, 6000 or 7000 series card. RE Matrox quality: at low resolutions any difference will be negligible, though I will admit to getting dull colours out of one particular 4350 I have. No one else has complained, and my other cards are great.

Have a read of this thread here - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,152969.0.html (You don't need a J-PAC, your VGA cable just plugs into the VGA-to-SCART doohickey you've ordered. Power concerns may be relevant when picking a card. Your G530 will do fine for MAME or GM though.)

Quote
...Calamity is in the process of updating the driver to work with up-to-date cards, but right now an HD 5000 or 6000 series Radeon card is great. You can pick them up second-hand pretty easily on Ebay or Gumtree/CL/Kijiji...And MAME is entirely CPU dependent; the GPU is merely needed to push a video mode. Other emulators and games can be quite different, of course. If you do go the crt_emudriver route, follow the guides for the 5000 (and up) cards here - http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewforum.php?id=2
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 12:27:26 am by buttersoft »