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Author Topic: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.  (Read 4669 times)

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oliver

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groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« on: April 21, 2012, 12:49:57 pm »
Hi forum.
First poster here.

I have been testing mame, mame+soft15khz for a moment now and I moved on to groovymame. I think groovymame+calamity patched drivers is great. It gives perfect scrooling for all games.
However, I have a small issue with mortal kombat games (and probable midway games because they were based on the same hardware (smatch tv/nba jam are other examples).

Most of the games run perfect and can be fully displayed using the service menu of the tv I am using. However, mk is missing too many lines at the top and bottom of the screen to be corrected. Characters are missing their feet in mk which is a bit annoying.
 I have read info on the forum about this, but I can not get to it. I tried using arcade_osd to reproduce the centering issue modifying freq/vbp values for the corresponding modeline.

mk used to be fully displayed with mame+soft15khz but I much prefer groovymame smoothness.

My setup is as follow:
early 90s cab with 6 buttons modified panel.
pc with E2160 (comparable to a c2d) running 32bits XP.
ati 4650.
jamma cable with jammasd interface and DIY vga to scart rgb cable.
sony 21lt1b scart tv (european) dropped inside the cab.

I use the default setting for mame and vmmaker generated modelines:
monitor_specs_0 = "15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448"

What is the easyest way to have those few games centered?

Thanks

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2012, 01:20:08 pm »
Hi Oliver, I'm glad to see you already made your own research about this. I'm guessing there's a need for a "256-line games and SCART TVs" thread.

Well, the interesting bit from your post is that with Soft-15KHz mk did show complete. Are you sure of this?? Could you repeat the process? Just install Soft-15Khz over the CRT_Emudrivers, don't worry about that. Then run MAME and make sure you check with video mode is being used. Then use Arcade_OSD to test the modeline being used, probably 400x256, copy it here so we know what's going on.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

oliver

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2012, 05:28:25 pm »
I would be glad to help.

I have run a few more tests.

With soft15khz+latest amd catalysts, mame sets resolution to 400x254@54.706840, which gives a full image in lowres but animation is not perfect. This is what I used before switching to crt_emudriver and groovymame.
I keep 3 separate folders on my machine. One with regular mame, one with groovymame, and a last one with mameui32, pointing to the same rom folder. They are all pretty much setupthe same, and switch resolution (low res). If I run regular mame with the exact same setup (clean XP and crt_emudriver) as groovymame, I get a full image.

With soft15khz on top of crt_emudriver, both regular mame or mameui set resolution to 399x253@54.815170 which gives nothing on the screen (maybe no sync).
I have attached the groovymame output for mk, with soft_15khz on top of emudriver.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 05:43:01 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 05:17:24 pm »
Hi Oliver,

Thanks for the logs. I'm sorry but your results don't make much sense to me. Probably I didn't understand some parts.

There's no point in trying CRT_Emudriver vs Catalyst. You can keep CRT_Emudriver all the time and just run Soft-15Khz vs VMMaker, which are just two programs to add modelines to the registry, and are much the same thing on this regard. It's just that Soft-15Khz will use it's own modelines and according to your tests these produce a full 256-line image.

Quote
With soft15khz+latest amd catalysts, mame sets resolution to 400x254@54.706840

Well that's the requested resolution, not the *actual* resolution MAME will switch to. You can find which one is used by looking at MAME's log. The idea is to find the one used (when with Soft-15Khz installed), say 400x256@60, then run Arcade_OSD and set this resolution to full screen to check that it fits, and possibly copy the modeline values (enter Edit modeline submenu) so we can analize it and compare to what GroovyMAME produces to see why one works and the other doesn't.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2012, 05:40:22 pm »
I installed soft15khz with crt_emudriver. If I run mame -log mk, mame will then try to start the game at 640x480, which does not sync with the TV (I have vnc running at the same time from another computer and it shows black borders around the game screen).

mk shows properly (full image) with:
-official catalyst with soft15khz and mame.
-crt_emudriver, vmmaker and mame (not groovymame where it shows cut image at top and bottom).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 05:56:12 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 06:05:23 pm »
-crt_emudriver, vmmaker and mame (not groovymame where it shows cut image at top and bottom).

Which video mode does MAME (not groovymame) pick here? Get it from the log and try it with Arcade_OSD to check if it shows full screen.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 06:12:29 pm »
here is the log for regular mame, using crt_emudriver and vmmaker:
I am not sure which one to choose, as the log reports:
DirectDraw: Mode selected =  400x 272@ 55Hz
DirectDraw: primary surface created: 400x272x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000FF)
DirectDraw: New blit size = 399x253
DirectDraw: blit surface created: 399x253x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000FF)

whereas, the mame output to the command prompts spits this towards the end:
DirectDraw: New blit size = 400x254
DirectDraw: primary surface created: 400x272x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000F
F)
DirectDraw: blit surface created: 400x254x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000FF)
Average speed: 100.24% (3 seconds)
Sound: buffer overflows=1 underflows=1
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 06:32:57 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 06:39:11 pm »
Ah, interesting, it's picking this one: 400x272@55

Also, try running: mame mk -resolution 400x256@59
(will probably be cut)
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 05:51:08 pm »
yes, cut.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 06:02:54 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 06:04:41 pm »
So, what's going on here? At 59 Hz it's cut but at 55 Hz there's a full image? If that's the case, perhaps the TV is switching between PAL and NTSC mode automatically like the Loewes do...
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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2012, 06:26:09 pm »
So, what's going on here? At 59 Hz it's cut but at 55 Hz there's a full image? If that's the case, perhaps the TV is switching between PAL and NTSC mode automatically like the Loewes do...

It's definitely the dreaded PAL/NTSC mode switching issue but there's something more. On the Loewes the trigger factor seems to be the vertical refresh but here I think it's the total number of lines. In the first log he posted GroovyMAME was creating a 400x256@55 video mode and it was cut too. But when regular MAME accidentally picks 400x272@55 it turns out that the Sony TV adjusts the vertical size so the 256 lines do fit in the screen. That's very interesting. So Oliver, did you need to use the service menu at all?
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2012, 06:45:32 pm »
I know how to acces the service menu, but for now, all values are set to default. Even better, At 400x272, I can see a few spare black lines at the bottom of the screen (I believe).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 07:07:43 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 09:23:51 pm »
So, the TV is definitely omitting those extra vertical lines? It's not just a matter of overscan? Experimenting with the vertical size in the Service Menu will confirm this.

The trick will be, as Calamity has alluded to, to discover the logic your TV is using each modeline.
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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2012, 05:02:06 am »
So, the TV is definitely omitting those extra vertical lines? It's not just a matter of overscan?

Well it's not omitting them because he's seeing black bands up and down. What happens is that MAME automatically centers the 256 active lines in the middle of the 272 usable lines, leaving 8 black lines above and below.

Basically, we have 2 situations:

- Input signal: 400x256@55Hz (256 active lines + 21 blanking = 277 total lines). The TV thinks: hey, this must be a NTSC signal (262,5 lines, 224 active), let's set v-size very wide so the picture covers the screen. Result -> our 256 lines are cut.

- Input signal: 400x272@55Hz (272 active lines + 21 blanking = 292 total lines). The TV thinks: mmmm, this looks like PAL (312,5 lines, 288 active), let's apply my v-size PAL preset so that the picture fits the screen. Result -> black lines up and down.

Of course there could be some intermediate cases, it's a matter of testing.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2012, 05:34:32 am »
So, the TV is definitely omitting those extra vertical lines? It's not just a matter of overscan? Experimenting with the vertical size in the Service Menu will confirm this.

The trick will be, as Calamity has alluded to, to discover the logic your TV is using each modeline.


I would say there are too many missing lines to be an overscan problem. I tried using the service menu to modify vsize and vcenter and even with the lowest values, there is a lot missing at the top and bonntom of the screen.

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2012, 05:42:46 am »
I would agree with the first situation.

However, for the second situation, the game covers the screen nearly entirely. I only get a tiny black bar at the bottom.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 05:54:05 am by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2012, 08:20:32 am »
I would say there are too many missing lines to be an overscan problem.

Okay, cool. So it sounds like you're pretty certain about that.

Have you had a play with Arcade_OSD? Sometimes you have to experiment and find the values that will enable your TV to show 256 lines. I've noticed that with many digital chassis TVs that it's necessary to create a different set of monitor_specs for 256 line games versus the 224 and 240 line resolutions. That part isn't that complicated but working out how the PAL/NTSC business fits into the equation can be...
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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2012, 01:53:37 pm »
I have tried arcade_osd and can not seem to find any setting in the vertical geometry that will allow proper display. I have also tried on another tv and it looks the same.

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2012, 02:22:25 pm »
Hi oliver,

Try adding this line into mame.ini

   monitor_specs0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.576, 0.160, 1.568, 0, 0, 288, 400

Then try any of the 256-line games with GroovyMAME. Let's see if this works, and then will figure out how to deal with the others (224-line etc.) separately.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2012, 03:01:32 pm »
Hi calamity.
Thanks.
MK now shows complete. It also has an effect on vertical games, "pushing"them up about 2-3 centimeters towards the top of the screen, which makes them now playable.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 03:20:18 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2012, 03:41:36 pm »
Good to hear that. I'm curious of what happens now to 224-line games. I'm guessing they will be narrower in the vertical.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2012, 03:46:57 pm »
yes, 1942 is a bit norrowed for example. Packman has more lines so it covers the screen with a few missing lines at the top and bottom that could probably be fixed through the tv service menu.
Does it have any effect on other games? Rtype leo scrolling seems less smooth.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 03:51:24 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2012, 03:51:31 pm »
I mean horizontal games, like sf2, goldnaxe, toki, etc. Anyway, try this:

monitor_specs0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 248, 400
monitor_specs1  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.576, 0.160, 1.568, 0, 0, 288, 400

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2012, 04:19:03 pm »
sf2 toki and golden axe were actually not narrowed.
The few horizontal games I have tried are perfect (mk, sf3.3, kof98, rtype leo). However, vertical are now aparently run interlaced.

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2012, 04:26:22 pm »
Ah that's good. So probably you can stay with the first settings. Anyway the new settings shouldn't produce interlaced modes for 1942, pacman, etc. unless there's a duplicated label for monitor_specs1 inside mame.ini.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2012, 04:33:38 pm »
I have just checked and there is only one monitor_specs1 line in mame.ini.

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2012, 04:39:40 pm »
Please post a log of 1942 so I can check.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2012, 04:47:08 pm »
yes, here it is.

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2012, 05:00:41 pm »
Thanks for the log. Yes, you're right. The second range is not being considered because GroovyMAME's modeline scoring system needs some adjustment. Hopefully I get some free time in the near future because there's a pile of little issues like this one that need to get fixed.

Anyway by now you can do with the previous settings, I thought that it would make 224-line games to get narrow on the vertical but fortunately it seems they are still as treated NTSC modes by your TV.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2012, 05:10:22 pm »
sure, no problem.
I keep both lines in my mame.ini file. My cab is running an horizontal tv anyway, and I keep grovvymame as it gives the best results.

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2012, 06:05:52 pm »
I found a solution. I copied mame.ini to ini\vertical.ini and put the monitor_specs from your above post (the one that had the vertical games working). This improves a bit. I now get everything perfect, plus vertical games are now complete as well :).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 06:16:56 pm by oliver »

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2012, 09:52:13 am »
I have a log fron donpachi that is run interlaced:

SwitchRes: Monitor: custom Orientation: horizontal Aspect 4:3
SwitchRes: MonitorLimits 15625.00-16200.00,49.50-65.00,2.000,4.700,8.000,0.576,0.160,1.568,0,0,288.0,448
SwitchRes: Raw limits (57.5506Hz)-> YresMin= 235p, YresMax= 244p(488i)
SwitchRes: Logical limit YresMin (448/2) = 224p
SwitchRes: Setup monitor limits min=184x224 max=0x488
SwitchRes: Virtualized to 640x480@57.55 15.9415Khz
SwitchRes: Starting with Horizontal freq of 15.924 and Vertical refresh of 57.55
SwitchRes: # 15.625Khz -> 16.200Khz: ( | Interlace | Virtualize | )
SwitchRes: # donpachi [9] 640x480@57.55 15.9703Khz
SwitchRes: ModeLine          "640x480x57.55" 13.287292 640 664 728 832 480 498 503 555 -HSync -VSync interlace

SwitchRes v0.013f: [donpachi] (1) vertical (320x240@57.55)->(432x320@57.55)->(640x480@57.55)
SwitchRes: # donpachi 640x480@57.55 15.9703Khz
SwitchRes:    ModeLine          "640x480x57.55" 13.287292 640 664 728 832 480 498 503 555 -HSync -VSync interlace
SwitchRes: DefaultVideo 'System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\{C229F72B-8C44-4F84-A8B1-9143A5A74B56}\0000'

Games that are 320x240@60 run progressive. Games that are 320x240@57 run interlaced.
Does it come fomr the same scoring problem?

Calamity

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2012, 11:05:12 am »
donpachi is a vertical game, so once rotated in becomes 320-line tall, impossible to show as progressive:

SwitchRes v0.013f: [donpachi] (1) vertical (320x240@57.55)->(432x320@57.55)->(640x480@57.55)

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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oliver

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Re: groovymame and midway/mk games screen centering on TV.
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2012, 12:07:55 pm »
good point :)).

I compared with batsugun ,and although it does not look like interlaced, it actually is. It is just that switchres selects (320x240@60.00)->(432x320@60.00)->(624x464@60.00) for batsu, which looks a bit better than the one it chooses for donpachi.

I will have them run at 512x288 plus hwstretch=1 through seperate ini files for those few vertical games at the cost of a few missing lines. Interlaced mode makes me go blind too much :).