Author Topic: What's Up With Bullet Hell? (Read 15248 times)

Woodshop Flunky · « **on:** April 16, 2012, 08:46:41 pm »

Okay...

Until I finished my son's arcade, I hadn't played any shmups since 'Twin Cobra' back in 1989. Somehow, we got turned on to Raiden, and just loved it. It has been our favorite game since last August.

So, the other day I decided to load a couple of newer games; 'Gunbird 2', and 'Dragon Blaze'. What happened!? In no time at all I was facing a screen with about a zillion bullets flying all over the place.

I'm I just stuck in the 80's, or is there some rhyme and reason behind these games that just flood the screen with bullets? They look like they should be a lot of fun... but I die too fast to find out.

Thanks!

codefenix · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2012, 09:26:53 pm »

I thought the same thing when I started playing the Cave shooters. Just stick with it and you'll start seeing paths through the bullets. Hang in there!

RyogAkari · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2012, 09:36:05 pm »

Different strokes....

Im actually building a cab dedicated to shmups so I can start becoming better at bullet hell/hose/etc games. Cant wait!

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2012, 09:44:58 pm »

I'm going to try and stick it out.

The really disturbing thing is... my son (not quite 6yrs old) has me picking my jaw up off the floor.

On Raiden I can do better than him, but he seems to making some really nice, deliberate maneuvers on these newer games. Maybe his fresh brain can see paths I can't yet.

Jack Burton · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:35:51 pm »

The cave games seem easier to me than the old manic shooters like Twin Cobra.

Gray_Area · « **Reply #5 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:52:03 pm »

Quote from: Woodshop Flunky on April 16, 2012, 09:44:58 pm

I'm going to try and stick it out.

The really disturbing thing is... my son (not quite 6yrs old) has me picking my jaw up off the floor.

On Raiden I can do better than him, but he seems to making some really nice, deliberate maneuvers on these newer games. Maybe his fresh brain can see paths I can't yet.

Probably. Some of these I like, some I don't. I don't think it's that earlier games weren't hard enough. You can see the life drain out of a youngen when you show them an 80s shooter, and the speed (or lack of it) usually does them in pretty quickly.

elkameleon · « **Reply #6 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:19:32 pm »

Love me some DoDonPachi!

opt2not · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:33:01 pm »

Flunky,
Old manic Shmups and bullet-hell Shmups are definitely different beasts.

For one, manic shooters are all about bullets that are fired directly at you at higher speeds. Bullet-hells are all about patterns and tiny "touch movements" through slow blankets of bullets.

In maniacs you have to lead enemy fire a lot, and mainly require more sweeping movements. While bullet-hells are about labyrinth path-finding through a patterned sea of bullets. Small finite movements are better here (prime reason I like the shorter throw, quick actuation joysticks for Shmups).

The jury is out on whether I like manic or bullet-hells more, but in any case they're definitely different and require a bit of a mental shift at playing. That being said, I don't think gunbird or dragon blaze is good examples to jump into the genre. DB for sure, it's waaaay hard to play.

Try out the first donpachi, or dodonpachi...they're a bit easier to ramp up for.
Also, the Strikers series is a good balance between manic and b-hell.

*edit: while you're at it, check out Progear No Arashi. It's difficult'ish, but the game is just absolutely gorgeous looking. I credit feed it just to keep looking at it.

emphatic · « **Reply #8 on:** April 17, 2012, 05:18:56 am »

In old shumps it's more about going around bullets. In bullet hell games, it's about finding a clear path between a shower of bullets. The Psikyo games have very fast bullets and need a lot of memorization for survival alone. CAVE games can be played for survival on basic skills alone, but need some route planning and a good memory when played for score. I recommend trying Do-Donpachi Dai-Ou-Jou Black Label (select New version at boot), ESPGALUDA and Ketsui. These are IMO the very best CAVE games, Ketsui is my #1 shmup easily, and I've been into arcade games since 1986.

Well Fed Games · « **Reply #9 on:** April 17, 2012, 09:43:30 am »

I prefer the manic shooters (usually nothing much newer than Raiden/Strikers, where you only really get bullet hell on the bosses), mostly because I have a horrible memory, and while memorization is key to both kinds, it "feels" like bullet hell is more about memorizing a path.

Of course, I am horrible at both types, but can't get enough of them!

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #10 on:** April 17, 2012, 10:02:00 am »

Quote from: opt2not on April 16, 2012, 11:33:01 pm

Flunky,
Old manic Shmups and bullet-hell Shmups are definitely different beasts.

For one, manic shooters are all about bullets that are fired directly at you at higher speeds. Bullet-hells are all about patterns and tiny "touch movements" through slow blankets of bullets.

In maniacs you have to lead enemy fire a lot, and mainly require more sweeping movements. While bullet-hells are about labyrinth path-finding through a patterned sea of bullets. Small finite movements are better here (prime reason I like the shorter throw, quick actuation joysticks for Shmups).

The jury is out on whether I like manic or bullet-hells more, but in any case they're definitely different and require a bit of a mental shift at playing. That being said, I don't think gunbird or dragon blaze is good examples to jump into the genre. DB for sure, it's waaaay hard to play.

Try out the first donpachi, or dodonpachi...they're a bit easier to ramp up for.
Also, the Strikers series is a good balance between manic and b-hell.

*edit: while you're at it, check out Progear No Arashi. It's difficult'ish, but the game is just absolutely gorgeous looking. I credit feed it just to keep looking at it.

Helpful post... I'll check out your suggestions. Yeah, we were playing last night I got to thinking to myself that the joystick response didn't feel suited for these games... could have just been looking for an excuse.

Quote from: emphatic on April 17, 2012, 05:18:56 am

... Ketsui is my #1 shmup easily, and I've been into arcade games since 1986.

See... that game LOOKS awesome. I just need to get my rusty brain thinking different.

BurgerKingDiamond · « **Reply #11 on:** April 17, 2012, 11:34:26 am »

I read the thread title and knew that Opt2not and Emphatic would chime in

I second that you should try Dodonpachi with C type ship (and hold F2 to bring up the service menu and select C button full auto). Play this strictly for survival (don't worry about learning to score yet) and see what you think.

As for Gunbird and Dragonblaze. Both are made by Psykio which has a certain style all of it's own, a lot closer to Raiden than anything by CAVE. I wouldn't recommend anything by Psykio to really get you started on. Especially Dragonblaze. That game is F****** tough.

wp34 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 17, 2012, 11:37:32 am »

Quote from: elkameleon on April 16, 2012, 11:19:32 pm

Love me some DoDonPachi!

+1

I think that is my youngest boys favorite game.

elkameleon · « **Reply #13 on:** April 17, 2012, 11:43:59 am »

Quote from: wp34 on April 17, 2012, 11:37:32 am

Quote from: elkameleon on April 16, 2012, 11:19:32 pm
Love me some DoDonPachi!

+1

I think that is my youngest boys favorite game.

Funny you mention that, I was playing this game with my 13 year old, bastard was beating me (in score), I was like, "how the hell are you not dying? I just ate it big!" Damn Halo reflexes I guess.

Cynicaster · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2012, 10:22:41 am »

I'd never even heard of DoDonPachi until last summer, but it's easily one of my favorite games now. Brilliant!

GigaWing is pretty cool too. I recently started playing some Strikers 1945 which rocks but I'm finding it extremely difficult.

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2012, 07:39:31 pm »

Okay... I tried DoDonPachi... and liked it straight away (no good at it, but I liked it!).

Thanks for pointing this one out.

emphatic · « **Reply #16 on:** April 21, 2012, 05:36:05 am »

Quote from: Woodshop Flunky on April 20, 2012, 07:39:31 pm

Okay... I tried DoDonPachi... and liked it straight away (no good at it, but I liked it!).

Thanks for pointing this one out.

You should try Ketsui too.

Dervacumen · « **Reply #17 on:** April 21, 2012, 06:24:08 am »

I appreciate this thread because I never really "got" the fascination with Bullet Hell. Now I can look at these games with fresh eyes and it appears that they are next gen old school maze games with shooter elements. Try Astro Blaster.

Ginsu Victim · « **Reply #18 on:** April 21, 2012, 10:48:17 am »

Every time I'm at my cabinet, I have to fire up DoDonPachi at least once. It's AWESOME.

Louis Tully · « **Reply #19 on:** April 21, 2012, 12:06:02 pm »

Gray_Area · « **Reply #20 on:** April 21, 2012, 05:32:34 pm »

Yeah, my fave 90s shooters are Strikers1945 and Dodonpachi. (I don't go for 3D games much, so Gigawing it out.) I've been playing vert shooters a little lately, especially as Air Gallet is the comp game at Petes-emulation.com, and last night I thought I'd pull out Dodonpachi to compare.

Unstupid · « **Reply #21 on:** April 21, 2012, 05:44:50 pm »

My son loves Aero Fighters 2 on the Neo Geo... but before he starts the game he loads up 99 credits... I was wondering why he needed so many then as I watched him play (he's 6 BTW) he ended up burning through 20 by the time he finished the second level... I know the unlimited credits takes away from the game, but if I were to be dumping quarters in the machine it would seem too much of a money grab!

DCsegaDH · « **Reply #22 on:** April 22, 2012, 03:53:29 am »

I'm a pretty big fan of shmups, not very at them either, but I love playing them. My favorite is Raiden Fighters 2, I like pretty much all shmups, old and new.

BurgerKingDiamond · « **Reply #23 on:** April 22, 2012, 06:19:21 pm »

just to show off some, here's a vid of me clearing Mushihimesama Futari on 1 credit

I would definitely recommend this to anybody interested in trying out some bullet hell games, it's my favorite.

elkameleon · « **Reply #24 on:** April 28, 2012, 02:33:04 pm »

Just wanted to say I found a bullet hell shooter on the ipad/iphone that's worth checking out, it's called Shogun. It only has 4 levels, but they are hard....

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/shogun-bullet-hell-shooter/id485759932?mt=8

hypernova · « **Reply #25 on:** April 28, 2012, 05:46:31 pm »

The irony is that bullet hell is actually heaven!

Le Chuck · « **Reply #26 on:** May 06, 2012, 11:26:53 am »

So I read this thread and looked at some of the other shump stuff and decided I'd really give'em a go. I always make sure I have some shooters on my cab but was never a huge fan. Dodonpachi just flipped my ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I ended up playing for like an hour. Now I've gotta get some more bullet hell games because I think I'm becoming a convert. I haven't had that much fun and been so simultaneously stressed out in a while. Awesome stuff. I like the bullet hells a lot more than the classic 80s style shooters.

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2012, 12:24:01 pm »

Quote from: Le Chuck on May 06, 2012, 11:26:53 am

So I read this thread and looked at some of the other shump stuff and decided I'd really give'em a go. I always make sure I have some shooters on my cab but was never a huge fan. Dodonpachi just flipped my ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I ended up playing for like an hour. Now I've gotta get some more bullet hell games because I think I'm becoming a convert. I haven't had that much fun and been so simultaneously stressed out in a while. Awesome stuff. I like the bullet hells a lot more than the classic 80s style shooters.

Yeah... I've added DoDonPachi, and several others because of the comments on this thread. My son and I are really enjoying them! ...the pattern flying thing is a lot of fun.

Played Xevious the other day, and WOW what difference! I felt like I could have eaten a sandwich while playing... still fun, though, since I've got sooooooo many memories of playing it with my dad as a kid.

harveybirdman · « **Reply #28 on:** May 06, 2012, 12:39:53 pm »

if you haven't yet add ESP Ra.De. and Guwange to the list to try.... They are epic.

Gray_Area · « **Reply #29 on:** May 08, 2012, 02:16:50 am »

Quote from: Woodshop Flunky on May 06, 2012, 12:24:01 pm

Yeah... I've added DoDonPachi, and several others because of the comments on this thread. My son and I are really enjoying them! ...the pattern flying thing is a lot of fun.

Played Xevious the other day, and WOW what difference! I felt like I could have eaten a sandwich while playing... still fun, though,

I experienced this during the recent Metrocross comp. Play that, then go back to Donkey Kong. But guess which one I play more. Ditto Xevious, relative to 90s shooters, although the most-played shooter here is 1943.

brad808 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 08, 2012, 06:45:32 am »

I'm also a huge fan of the cave shmups. I find them oddly relaxing after I come home from work. I also love the fact that most people can pick them up without any prior knowledge of the game and get pretty far in them without dying, but the real challenge comes from trying to get massive scores from the chaining and different scoring systems for each game. I've just this week upgraded the pc in my mame cab to be able to play the new sh3 games at full speed. They seem to be cpu hogs, I'm not sure if that's because the drivers got pulled from mame so they haven't been optimized much or what the deal is.

Cynicaster · « **Reply #31 on:** May 08, 2012, 02:59:57 pm »

Quote from: brad808 on May 08, 2012, 06:45:32 am

I've just this week upgraded the pc in my mame cab to be able to play the new sh3 games at full speed. They seem to be cpu hogs, I'm not sure if that's because the drivers got pulled from mame so they haven't been optimized much or what the deal is.

What are sh3 games?

Over the weekend I added DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou, Ketsui, and Espgaluda to my cabinet--pretty wicked! I still think DoDonPachi is my favourite though; it just seems the most balanced.

brad808 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 08, 2012, 03:43:54 pm »

Quote from: Cynicaster on May 08, 2012, 02:59:57 pm

Quote from: brad808 on May 08, 2012, 06:45:32 am
I've just this week upgraded the pc in my mame cab to be able to play the new sh3 games at full speed. They seem to be cpu hogs, I'm not sure if that's because the drivers got pulled from mame so they haven't been optimized much or what the deal is.

What are sh3 games?

Over the weekend I added DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou, Ketsui, and Espgaluda to my cabinet--pretty wicked! I still think DoDonPachi is my favourite though; it just seems the most balanced.

All those are sweet games for sure. The cave sh3 games are some newer shmup games made by cave that run on "cave sh3" hardware. The hardware driver was added to mame but was removed at the request of cave to the mame developers because the system is still new and making them money.

Some notable titles if you want to look them up are muchi muchi pork, pink sweets, ibara, espgaluda 2, death smiles, plus a couple more that slip my mind right now.

Sent from my Desire HD

mo1e · « **Reply #33 on:** May 08, 2012, 04:50:03 pm »

Im not sure if this game is out on pc, But seeing as im building a dreamcast cab i downloaded a bunch of games for it and ive just started playing a game called under defeat. Hell im thinkng about creating a seperate cocktail cab for this game alone. it really is awesome anyone with a dreamcast get this game. also the bullets dont come too fast for the first 2 levels or so.

opt2not · « **Reply #34 on:** May 08, 2012, 05:00:27 pm »

Heh, coincidence. This week is Under Defeat week for me.
I love this game.
Wasn't too impressed with the HD release, but the DC version is the tits!

I love the rotation mechanic, makes sense for a heli, as well as the Option satellite turret weapons. Though I find I get too hung up on proper angle spawning of my turret, which kills me most of the time.
Still, great game and still very impressive looking.

If your PC is fast enough, emulating it is a decent option. I think NullDC does a good job now, though I haven't emulated a DC game for a while now.

emphatic · « **Reply #35 on:** May 08, 2012, 06:43:02 pm »

I played Under Defeat HD just last night!

Yeah, the Dreamcast port is way better, time to put my DreamCast back in the cabinet.

Malenko · « **Reply #36 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:04:52 pm »

I got death smiles on 360, its fun but mega mega tough on the hardest difficulty. like mega not fun. 1 of the achievements is to beat the game on the hardest difficulty WITHOUT GETTING HIT

opt2not · « **Reply #37 on:** May 08, 2012, 07:45:35 pm »

Quote from: emphatic on May 08, 2012, 06:43:02 pm

I played Under Defeat HD just last night! Yeah, the Dreamcast port is way better, time to put my DreamCast back in the cabinet.

Check it out! Here's my Dreamcast set-up at work:

I had one of Haruman's controller hacks and a bunch of leftover parts from a couple resto's laying around, so I figured I'd put together a stick for the purpose of having it permanently at the office for the shmuppin' need, as well as using up spare parts. The stick consists of all silent running components: a Wico leaf-stick and IL buttons w/ Randy's silent micro-switches. The box was built a few years ago when I was going to put together a portable Robotron stick, but never got around to it. I will eventually put a second leaf-stick in it, as well as a mini-pac for PC mame, but for now using it for a DC is pretty good.

emphatic · « **Reply #38 on:** May 09, 2012, 02:56:14 am »

Quote from: Malenko on May 08, 2012, 07:04:52 pm

1 of the achievements is to beat the game on the hardest difficulty WITHOUT GETTING HIT

Like this(not me playing)?

spoot · « **Reply #39 on:** May 09, 2012, 10:23:26 am »

Got 999 difficulty problems but a death ain't one?

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #40 on:** May 09, 2012, 10:38:26 am »

Wow! Under Defeat looks really nice! Makes me wish I had one!

HaRuMaN · « **Reply #41 on:** May 09, 2012, 12:06:13 pm »

Radirgy for DC is fun, too.

emphatic · « **Reply #42 on:** May 22, 2012, 07:49:27 am »

Just a heads up for US folk with 360's: http://www.maxim.com/gaming/akai-katana

Of course also available for PAL and NTSC-J.

vidmouse · « **Reply #43 on:** May 22, 2012, 09:54:14 am »

Heh, I read the title of this post and thought there was an actual game called "Bullet Hell"

One that I see missing from this thread is Dangun Feveron. Love that game.

sharpfork · « **Reply #44 on:** May 23, 2012, 10:03:32 pm »

I played video games as a kid in the 80's and early 90's and spend years with old computers in my Mame cab.
I too played Raiden a bunch with my kids and was bitten by the Bullet Hell bug after playing Cave titles in CoinOps on the Xbox. I ended up changing my cabinet around to be better suited for Bullet Hell shmups.

I started by rotating my monitor to to a tate/vertical position.
I needed more horsepower to play newer games so I tried a ballsy PC but ended up moving to a region free (jtag) x360. There are a ton of great ports with cool arrange modes available. They even support tate monitors
I swaped my Happ joysticks for Sanwa JLW based on a recommendation by opt2not for a decent shmup joystick with a classic feel. Everyone including my wife loves the balltop look and gameplay- thanks opt2not

I started messing around with lighter activation pressure switches (than Cherry) for my Happ/IL buttons. I am guessing that I'm going to have some sort of Japanese buttons in there at some point. I'm also keeping my eyes open for a good deal on a local (Denver) Candy Cab with 29" monitor, the main type of cab the newer Cave titles are played in, but I'm not holding my breath.

I now have a second cabinet that has a horizontal 27" CRT in it and I'm thinking the next thing I'm going to explore is StreetFighter II, III, and IV.

opt2not · « **Reply #45 on:** May 24, 2012, 02:19:25 am »

glad the JLW's worked out for you.

emphatic · « **Reply #46 on:** May 26, 2012, 04:28:14 pm »

Really curious about the JLW's. Gonna get one next time I buy parts.

amendonz · « **Reply #47 on:** May 26, 2012, 04:38:10 pm »

hori cave shmup Akai Katana out now on 360 (pal)

eldiau · « **Reply #48 on:** May 26, 2012, 07:39:59 pm »

I got caught in the bullet hell net too! Because of this thread I started playing DoDonPachi and I got hooked!
Unfortunately I have no space for another cab so I'm looking into building something smaller using an old naomi universal control panel with sanwa buttons but I'm opting for Seimitsu LS-56 joysticks, I was told they are the best for shmups... now you guys are talking about JLW, are they any better?

opt2not · « **Reply #49 on:** May 26, 2012, 08:03:58 pm »

Quote from: eldiau on May 26, 2012, 07:39:59 pm

... now you guys are talking about JLW, are they any better?

I recommended the JLW to sharpfork because he wanted a compromise between a stick that works well with shmups, as well as classic games.
The JLW's are pretty much on par with the LS-32's, except the JLW's have a lesser "dead-activation" zone and a bit stiffer in throw. IMO they're the overall best stick for a wide variety of games. But if you're looking for just a great shmuppin' stick, the Seimitsu LS-56 is your stick.

eldiau · « **Reply #50 on:** May 26, 2012, 08:24:25 pm »

opt2not thanks for your advice, I'll post picture of the project... in the mean time I'll keep up trying to chain in dodonpachi on my "woody" cab

mgb · « **Reply #51 on:** May 28, 2012, 09:25:21 am »

Quote from: opt2not on May 26, 2012, 08:03:58 pm

Quote from: eldiau on May 26, 2012, 07:39:59 pm
... now you guys are talking about JLW, are they any better?
I recommended the JLW to sharpfork because he wanted a compromise between a stick that works well with shmups, as well as classic games.
The JLW's are pretty much on par with the LS-32's, except the JLW's have a lesser "dead-activation" zone and a bit stiffer in throw. IMO they're the overall best stick for a wide variety of games. But if you're looking for just a great shmuppin' stick, the Seimitsu LS-56 is your stick.

I completely agree the Jlw is a great all around stick.
My player 1 stick is a Jlw with cherry switches from a super and a round restrictor and I love it for shmups and the like. Its quiet and smooth. One vertical game that I really like it for is Gyruss (not a shmup, but one of the greatest games ever)
I do prefer the older shmups over the bullet hells. My cab has a vertical 27" monitor so vertical shooters are a pretty big part of my machine.

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #52 on:** May 29, 2012, 11:48:29 am »

What stick is the U360 based on?

opt2not · « **Reply #53 on:** May 29, 2012, 02:20:47 pm »

Quote from: Woodshop Flunky on May 29, 2012, 11:48:29 am

What stick is the U360 based on?

The JLW

Which is why you can buy Andy's (ultimarc) octo-gate for the U360 and it'll fit on a standard JLW.
Like I did:

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #54 on:** May 29, 2012, 02:41:09 pm »

We've got the U360 with an octo-gate on my son's cab. I like the play action, but sometimes the stick has "mechanical" feel to it. I don't know how else to describe it. I've played other sticks (long ago) that didn't register any mechanical feeling to my hand. I think they might have had rubber grommets, but I really have no idea. I'd love to have that feeling again on my son's cab.

opt2not · « **Reply #55 on:** May 29, 2012, 05:00:14 pm »

I'm trying to picture what you mean by mechanical.

Are you referring to the clickiness of it?
Or how much strength it takes to move the stick around, the "throw"?

Woodshop Flunky · « **Reply #56 on:** May 29, 2012, 05:25:14 pm »

Quote from: opt2not on May 29, 2012, 05:00:14 pm

I'm trying to picture what you mean by mechanical.

Are you referring to the clickiness of it?
Or how much strength it takes to move the stick around, the "throw"?

It's hard to describe... but when I'm playing, sometimes I can feel the mechanics of the thing. When I"m playing a game really fast, I can't feel it so much, but when I'm trying to make slow movements, then it feels "sticky". It's most noticeable when I'm just navigating the front end. Also, when I'm playing a game that doesn't require a lot of fast direction changes, like Donkey Kong, or even older shmups like Xevious.

It may just be that I need to lube the joystick... but I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

I'd like the pressure required to go from dead center to any extreme to be constant... regardless of the speed I'm moving.

I may be asking for too much.

Los Abrazos Rotos · « **Reply #57 on:** May 29, 2012, 05:40:55 pm »

Totally know what you mean with that mechanical feeling. I find the U360 sticky too, even after lube. I love the many functions but absolutely hate the way it doesn't go back to dead centre... I wouldn't buy another thats for sure.

mgb · « **Reply #58 on:** May 29, 2012, 07:25:36 pm »

It sounds to me a bit like maybe your stick is grinding a little?

Los Abrazos Rotos · « **Reply #59 on:** May 30, 2012, 03:10:22 pm »

Its just the way that stick is designed I think - it doesn't feel like its grinding. Its just personal preference, sticks that dont centre are not cool


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Author Topic: What's Up With Bullet Hell? (Read 15248 times)

Los Abrazos Rotos

Los Abrazos Rotos