Qs Re: CP Buttons and Admin. Buttons

[Ren Hoek]

I am ready to start my CP and order parts.  However, I can't find answers to my specific button queries.

I am looking at a standard set-up (2 player, 6 buttons, trackball and spinner).  Is the 7th button worth it for Neo Geo games - I'm into fighting and shoot/beat-em ups?  Are any buttons required for the trackball and spinner (I want to use the trackball as a mouse if this is a feasible option)?  How many (I've heard up to 3).  Where is best to position them for the trackball and/or spinner?  Above, to the side etc?  I guess my trackball would sit inbetween player 1 and 2, and the spinner somewhere above.  can the trackball and spinner share buttons?

Are pinball buttons worth the effort (are there enough good pinball games to warrant this - each side of CP)?

Apart from Player 1 & 2 buttons (and credit buttons - I am not using a working coin door), how many admin buttons (if any are required).  What are ESC/TAB etc used for (escaping/scrolling through games?) and is a determined shift button a good idea.  i don't have a problem with lining the top of the CP with admin buttons as some people seem to.  I would just liek a run down of the maximum amount of buttons required (for a 6 or 7 button 2 player CP).

I have looked hard around this site but can't find specific details on this - and my internet is so slow that scrolling through every page is a tough task.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[paigeoliver]

You don't need ANY extra buttons besides your 6 buttons for each player and your start buttons. Everything else just adds to panel clutter. Any admin buttons are best put inside the coin door, or simply as shift functions off one of the player start buttons (you do know that you can assign things like TAB to "Player 1 start+Player 2 start" so it only tabs out when you hold down both buttons).

Spinners and trackballs can use the buttons off either player one or two. They DO NOT need dedicated buttons. If you want actual mouse buttons then wire a couple of your other buttons as the mouse buttons (Player 1 and player 2 start are good choices for mouse buttons).

As for the Neo Geo button. Have you extensively played any 4 buttons Neo Geo games in the arcade to an extent that you need the button layout to be the same (only the fighters are 4 button), if so, then go for the Neo Geo layout, otherwise it is just extra cost and extra clutter for no real reason.

The best "secondary" control to add on a budget is a 4-way joystick, or even better a pair of them (one for each player, as they are also better for puzzle games than 8-ways are). They go well directly to the left of each standard joystick, and sharing the same buttons as them.

After a 4-way (hundreds of games use 4-ways) the next best control to add is a trackball (about 60-80 games use trackballs, or at least play well with them). Next up would have to be a spinner (about 20 games).

Of course the sky is the limit when it comes to different controls. The specialty ones are almost endless, 360 wheels, 270 wheels, several kinds of yokes, steering harnesses with buttons, all kinds of shifters and pedals, several kinds of rotary joysticks, 720 spin/joy, Xybots sticks, analog sticks, Wizard of Wor 2x4-Way sticks, positional guns, light guns, up/down spinners, several kinds of top fire sticks, Vindicators controls, Assault sticks, 49-way sticks, several kinds of dance/"Stompin" pads, keyboards, turntables, pressure sensitive buttons (original Street Fighter), several kinds of boxing/arm wrestling controls, 2-way joysticks, 270 spinners (many pre-80 games), levers (Galaxian cocktail and others), bicycle pedals (Prop Cycle), holographic guns (Golly! Ghost!), Frontline spinner (different from others), bowling ball (Hyperbowl), Pinball plunger, roller (Major Havoc), and about a zillion others!

[Ren Hoek]

Paigeoliver  - that response must've been in record time!  Amazing.  Regarding the Neo Geo query on 7 buttons.  You mention 4 buttons.  My memory regarding Neo geo games (I haven't played them in ages) is fighting games.  I may have misinterpreted people here, but I got the general idea that 7 buttons were required for Neo Geo (or is the 7th button just for a row of 4 buttons for a genuine 4 button Neo Geo layout?)  How many buttons (if any) do the trackball/spinner games use?  Are there many newer type games that use the trackball and/or spinner?

[paigeoliver]

The extra Neo Geo button is just so you can have a genuine layout. It is not needed at all to play the games.

I can't think of a spinner game that uses more than 2 buttons.

Likewise I can't think of a trackball game with more than three (many have 3 though).

You don't need extra buttons for trackball or spinner as long as you can comfortably reach one of the other button banks (should be no problem unless you have a 4 foot wide panel). Most people tend to use their right hand for trackballs and spinners, allowing you to easily use your left hand on the player one buttons. A lot of cab builders never played these games in the arcade though, and tend to add buttons for these items on the right.

Trackball games have been popular since 1980 and they still make them today.

As for spinner games. There are only a handful newer than 1990 (Puchi Carat, and the last Arkanoid game are the only ones I can think of).

[Ren Hoek]

Puchi Carat?  I have that game on my PSone.  Not a bad little puzzler (cross between Breakout/Arkanoid and Puzzle Bobble).  Taking what you say on board, why do I see so many button layouts with extra designated buttons for the spinner and trackball?  Is it simple to administer multiple commands for one button?  If so, I'll defintely be using a row of player 1 or 2's buttons for the trackball/spinner craeting less clutter, cost and hassle.  How far (distance from centre to centre) between 8 way supers (or is competition the way to go, remebering I will play a mojority of fighting games like SF & MK, beat 'em ups like TMNT/Alien vs Predator, shoot 'em ups like Raiden Fighters, and sports games like soccer and NBA Jam) do you recommend I place the 4 ways (obviously so that the 8 way to the right of the 4 way doesn't get in the way)?

[paigeoliver]

It is nearly impossibly to get the 8-way and the 4-way close enough together that they get in the way of each other. My old machine that was like this had the bases of the sticks less than 1/4" apart. That was absolutely fine. The wildly different handle heights (and length of throw) on the reunion sticks and Happ or Wico 8-ways keeps you from even brushing up against one stick while you use the other.

I can't tell you distance between your player one stick and your player 2 stick. It totally depends on how wide your control panel is (and if you want to play dualjoy games like Robotron). I know they are pretty freaking far apart on the 33" showcase ultracade that I play on regular basis.

If you are going with the following controls, then spacing won't be too much of a problem. The relatively large trackball plate will keep the players from bumping into each other.

4-way,8-way,6-buttons, trackball, 4-way, 8-way, 6 buttons.

With that setup it is not possible to put the controls too close where it is cramped, so just put your trackball dead center and go from there.

If you must use a Happ stick, then go with supers. Final Fight and Streetfighter 2 both shipped with those sticks (or at least every Final Fight I have ever seen including the two I owned had them, as did all 3 Streetfighter 2 machines that I have owned).

Oh, and I prefered the 4-way to the left of the 8-way, and not the other way around. Esecially if they are close together. They work fine with bases nearly touching if the 4-way is on the left, but not if the 4-way is on the right, it is all about the differences in height, and the way the stick is held. If you put a good 1.5" between them, then it won't matter. But I still say stick the 8-way on the right, simply so it is closer to the buttons.

Oops. just realized you may not be clear on my concept.

It is STICK, STICK, BUTTONS.

not STICK, BUTTONS, STICK.

Oh, and finally, some of those games you mentions (like TMNT) came with leaf switch joysticks and not microswitch based ones.

Alternately, if your panel is wide enough (doesn't actually have to be that wide really, lots of extra space between controls is not really needed).

Player one station

STICK, STICK, BUTTONS, TRACKBALL

Player two station

STICK, STICK, BUTTONS, SPINNER

[Ren Hoek]

Thanks, your response was very easy to understand.  I haven't used a trackball at all(but am eager to), and often people say when they see other peoples' CP layout that there is not enough room for serious trackball spinning action (cramped layout/tight squeeze).  How crazy does one need to spin the damn thing?  What is the minimum distance required from the trackball to the nearest button/joystick without jeopardizing the fun?

[paigeoliver]

The only real trackball space issues I have ever seen is not having enough room BEHIND the trackball (whomp, hand hits the glass, common when they stick Capcom Bowling or Golden Tee in the wrong kind of cabinet)..

[Ren Hoek]

Paigeoliver you've been a great help.  Just another thing.  Re: the admin buttons.  How many does MAME use, and what are their functions?  eg. ESC = escape from game, another button = pause, another button = select game, etc. etc.

[Tiger-Heli]

I can't think of a spinner game that uses more than 2 buttons.

I think Blasteroids uses three.

[Tiger-Heli]

Paigeoliver you've been a great help.  Just another thing.  Re: the admin buttons.  How many does MAME use, and what are their functions?  eg. ESC = escape from game, another button = pause, another button = select game, etc. etc.

ESC - Exit game
Pause (P) - Pause game
There is no select game in command line MAME.
ENTER - for accepting Menu items
TAB - config menu
TILDE - Settings menu
F3 - Reset game
F7 - Load Save State
F8 - Adjust Frame Skip
F9 - Adjust Frame Skip
F10 - Toggle Speed Throttle
F11 - Toggle Speed display
F12 - Take screenshot

[RedSquirrel]

personally i would say add the neo geo buttons and pinball buttons. The pinball buttons shouldnt be noticeable as it is, and the buttons are hardly gonna cost much just to at 4 more of them.

The neogeo buttons are handy (i find) and if you were to hook say a dreamcast or whatever, you could make use of the 7th button as a button input for playing dc games.

[u_rebelscum]

Ren Hoek, it's good idea to think of the admin stuff as "administration functions", since there doesn't need to be a one to one correlation between a function and a button.  Plus, since you can change the key mapped to any of the functions, it really should be said "the default key for exit (aka UI_Cancel) is the esc key" instead of "esc = exit"; but the latter is much easier to type.

Here's a snip from the ctrlr/std.ini file that lists all the admin functions.

-Most important, IMO:

START1                  "KEYCODE_1 | JOYCODE_1_START"
START2                  "KEYCODE_2 | JOYCODE_2_START"
START3                  "KEYCODE_3 | JOYCODE_3_START"
START4                  "KEYCODE_4 | JOYCODE_4_START"
COIN1                   "KEYCODE_5 | JOYCODE_1_SELECT"
COIN2                   "KEYCODE_6 | JOYCODE_2_SELECT"
COIN3                   "KEYCODE_7 | JOYCODE_3_SELECT"
COIN4                   "KEYCODE_8 | JOYCODE_4_SELECT"

UI_CONFIGURE            "KEYCODE_TAB"
UI_PAUSE                "KEYCODE_P"
UI_CANCEL               "KEYCODE_ESC"

-less important, IMO:

UI_ON_SCREEN_DISPLAY    "KEYCODE_TILDE"
UI_RESET_MACHINE        "KEYCODE_F3"

-least important, IMO:

UI_SHOW_GFX             "KEYCODE_F4"
UI_FRAMESKIP_DEC        "KEYCODE_F8"
UI_FRAMESKIP_INC        "KEYCODE_F9"
UI_THROTTLE             "KEYCODE_F10"
UI_SHOW_FPS             "KEYCODE_F11 ! KEYCODE_LCONTROL ! KEYCODE_LSHIFT"
UI_SHOW_PROFILER        "KEYCODE_F11 KEYCODE_LSHIFT"
UI_SNAPSHOT             "KEYCODE_F12"
UI_TOGGLE_CHEAT         "KEYCODE_F6"
UI_TOGGLE_DEBUG         "KEYCODE_F5"
UI_SAVE_STATE           "KEYCODE_F7 KEYCODE_LSHIFT"
UI_LOAD_STATE           "KEYCODE_F7 ! KEYCODE_LSHIFT"
UI_ADD_CHEAT            "KEYCODE_A"
UI_DELETE_CHEAT         "KEYCODE_D"
UI_SAVE_CHEAT           "KEYCODE_S"
UI_WATCH_VALUE          "KEYCODE_W"
UI_EDIT_CHEAT           "KEYCODE_E"
SERVICE1                "KEYCODE_9"
SERVICE2                "KEYCODE_0"
SERVICE3                "KEYCODE_MINUS"
SERVICE4                "KEYCODE_EQUALS"
TILT                    "KEYCODE_T"

-important, but you should remap it to player 1 button 1, IMO:

UI_SELECT               "KEYCODE_ENTER | JOYCODE_1_BUTTON1"
(change to:  [size=-1]UI_SELECT     "KEYCODE_LCONTROL | JOYCODE_1_BUTTON1"[/size])


There is one and only one "admin key", and that's the F2 key;  it's called the "service" input.  If there's a settings menu in the original game, this key will bring it up.  I rate this the same as the "less important" admin functions.  
Why is this a "key" and not a "function" like the rest?  It boils down to: you can't remap it in the "Input (general)" or the ctrlr ini files; only in the game specific input and thus only effects that one game.