Lots of joystick questions

[pointdablame]

Ok, I'm looking to really make a definitve parts list to get this cab off the ground. College may get in the way during the week, but I'm determined to use the weekends wisely now, heh.

So, I have a bunch of questions regarding joysticks, if you guys would be so kind as to help me out with them.

1) I was gonna play around with the CP on my xmen cab, but i cant get the joystick shaft apart. Do I have to remove the plastic/rubber actuator on the bottom in a special way? Just pull it?  Basically... can someone tell me how to take the shaft out of a joystick assembly so I can see what's working on this CP

2) My CP is gonna be a 2p with a 4way stick as well. I'm set on using the Ms. Pac/galaga replacement for the 4way. For an all around 8 way for someone who doesn't really play a lot of fighters, will Competitions be the best bet? Supers? I searched a ton of threads on this and I know its asked all the time, but the funny thing is... I can't really tell if there was ever a decision.

3) Also, I'm debating on whether to put 2 8ways, or maybe one 8way and a specialty stick. Is it really worth it gameplay/number of games wise to put say one competition and a top fire? or a Perfect 360? or something to that effect. I'm not talking yokes, wheels, etc. Just a second "different" type of joy.

That's about it for now. thanks guys.

[Sasquatch!]

1) I was gonna play around with the CP on my xmen cab, but i cant get the joystick shaft apart. Do I have to remove the plastic/rubber actuator on the bottom in a special way? Just pull it?  Basically... can someone tell me how to take the shaft out of a joystick assembly so I can see what's working on this CP

There's usually a "c-clip" on the bottom of the joystick shaft that prevents the stick from being pulled straight up.  (I'm attaching a picture of the c-clip that's on the Super joystick, but I'm pretty sure they're all basically the same.)  You can use a flat-blade screwdriver or a pair of needlenose pliers to pry the c-clip off.  BE CAREFUL when removing it though, because it likes to fling itself across the room once it's loose!

2) My CP is gonna be a 2p with a 4way stick as well. I'm set on using the Ms. Pac/galaga replacement for the 4way. For an all around 8 way for someone who doesn't really play a lot of fighters, will Competitions be the best bet? Supers? I searched a ton of threads on this and I know its asked all the time, but the funny thing is... I can't really tell if there was ever a decision.

3) Also, I'm debating on whether to put 2 8ways, or maybe one 8way and a specialty stick. Is it really worth it gameplay/number of games wise to put say one competition and a top fire? or a Perfect 360? or something to that effect. I'm not talking yokes, wheels, etc. Just a second "different" type of joy.

I still think that OSCAR has the best reviews so far on the matter:
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/joycompare/joyreview1.shtml
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/joycompare/joyreview2.shtml

The consensus seems to be that:
- The Super is the best "all-around" stick.
- The Competition is the best "fighter" stick.
- The Ultimate is POO.

OSCAR has said that the Perfect 360 performs like the Super, only much better (albiet at a higher cost and with more work).  I personally am a fan of Wico leaf sticks for my 8-ways, but it's all about personal choice and what "feels" right to you.

Hope this helps!

[Sasquatch!]

DOH, forgot to attach the picture:

[Nightfalls]

Ultimarc's T-stiks/Industrias Lorenzo's Joystick 4-8w spring action are the best Arcade sticks ever made. The second: Ultimarc's E-stik/Happs Universal Stick/IL's Universal joystick . Happs Supers suck in my humble opinion.

[Apollo]

1. Remove e-clip carefully ( easy to break actuators or microswitches doing this ). Grasp back of clip with needle nose pliers and pull. If the clip is particularly stiff ( the MsPac/Galag one is pretty tough when new ) use a screwdriver to twist one side away from the shaft while you pull on pliers.

2. You will get as many different answers here as there are joysticks so I can only give my personal opinion. I use competitions for my 2 X 8 way sticks and they are fantastic, I totally agree with OSCAR'S review. Great for fighters and even better for classics ( Time Pilot, Scramble etc )

3. Make a list of the games you will play the most ( what were your favourite games etc ). If you will need a different kind of joystick to play one of your favourite games then you have to go with it. Otherwise just use 2 standard 8 ways.

Good luck and have fun.

[jakejake28]

for fighters get a wico eurostyle joystick. for classics get a wico stc 500. thats all you need to know.

 

[paigeoliver]

If you aren't into fighters then there is no reason to buy ANY of the Happ / iL sticks. The best all around joysticks are Wico 8-way leaf sticks (more games shipped with those sticks than with any other stick ever).

But, also, if the joysticks in your game now aren't broken, then there is no reason to "fix" them. Chances are they are probably Happ / iL sticks anyway, or are already higher quality than anything Happ sells. So I doubt you will get much of an upgrade on them by ordering anything from Happs.

And, everytime I find a post where Apollo mentions that his Happ sticks are good for Time Pilot I chime in and mention that I own a dedicated Time Pilot machine that used to have Happ supers in it, and I pulled them out and put Wico leaf switch sticks in. Night and day man, night and day. My scores went up by around 60 percent almost instantly.

For another comparison.

My local arcade has an ultracade with Competitions in it.

I have a machine at home with Wico long handled red balltop sticks in it (Robotron sticks basically).

My highest Robotron score to date on that Ultracade (3rd highest ever on the machine) 193,xxx

My highest Robotron score to date at home 520,xxx (I probably AVERAGE 250,xxx at home).

Good sticks make all the difference in the world. That is NOT the place to skimp on in the cost area. If anyplace, the place to skimp is in the area of the computer.

[paigeoliver]

Btw. My two cents on actually comparing the Happ sticks. Well, I have owned all 3  (I have owned a LOT of arcade games in the past, and most of those Happ / iL joysticks have been around since the late 80s).

Ultimates and Competitions (any bat handled Happ stick) are always pulled out of a machine almost immediately. Even if I plan on selling the machine I STILL pull them out. It is harder to sell a machine if the joysticks are junk.

Supers I leave in, unless I have something better laying around.

[jcoleman]

If anyone needs the Wico 8-ways that Paige is talking about, I have a bunch of them.  Brand new, still sealed in the box.  $15 each plus exact shipping cost.

John

[rampy]

If you aren't into fighters then there is no reason to buy ANY of the Happ / iL sticks. The best all around joysticks are Wico 8-way leaf sticks (more games shipped with those sticks than with any other stick ever).

But, also, if the joysticks in your game now aren't broken, then there is no reason to "fix" them. Chances are they are probably Happ / iL sticks anyway, or are already higher quality than anything Happ sells. So I doubt you will get much of an upgrade on them by ordering anything from Happs.

And, everytime I find a post where Apollo mentions that his Happ sticks are good for Time Pilot I chime in and mention that I own a dedicated Time Pilot machine that used to have Happ supers in it, and I pulled them out and put Wico leaf switch sticks in. Night and day man, night and day. My scores went up by around 60 percent almost instantly.

For another comparison.

My local arcade has an ultracade with Competitions in it.

I have a machine at home with Wico long handled red balltop sticks in it (Robotron sticks basically).

My highest Robotron score to date on that Ultracade (3rd highest ever on the machine) 193,xxx

My highest Robotron score to date at home 520,xxx (I probably AVERAGE 250,xxx at home).

Good sticks make all the difference in the world. That is NOT the place to skimp on in the cost area. If anyplace, the place to skimp is in the area of the computer.

Just to be nit picky are you sure you were using the same "revision" robotron and the same difficulty settings as in the Ultracade?

ALthough I hear ya, ball tops are the best for robotron (and for asthetics in my opinion)

*Shrug*

rampy

[Radical]

for fighters get a wico eurostyle joystick. for classics get a wico stc 500. thats all you need to know.

What's the motion of the STC 500 like?  Is the 4-way like the J-Stick (square but angled at 45 degrees) or something else?  What's the 8-way motion like? (circular, square, or ... ?)

I haven't been able to find much information on the STC 500's.  Only Wico's page which is barely readable and doesn't provide much info or even a good picture of the mechanism.   A search in this forum didn't turn up anything useful.  

[Tommy Boy]

I think RandyT posted something the other day indicating he was going to start reselling the stc's.  Perhaps he has a rundown of the differences between the stc and others.  I'd be interested myself.  RandyT...?

[Apollo]

That's fine Paige but as I have no experience of anything but the competitions I'm only saying that I find them to be good.
I believe you when you say the WICO 8 ways are the best for Time Pilot but I can't recommend them if I haven't used them now can I?
 

[RandyT]

I think RandyT posted something the other day indicating he was going to start reselling the stc's.  Perhaps he has a rundown of the differences between the stc and others.  I'd be interested myself.  RandyT...?

Heh...I guess I was pretty transparent there .

The STC 500 (which will be known as the OMNI-Stik (TM) on my site) is a very nice unit.  It can be configured for 2,3,4,5, and 8 ways.  the 2,3 and 5 way configuration requires the use of a couple of extra pieces that will lock the stick into that configuration.  As the stick does 2-way just great in 4-way mode, you'll want to discard those for anything but a dedicated Defender-style application.

The great thing about these, aside from the precise control, is a very well engineered rotating restrictor.  It doesn't just slide grooves past screws, which can lead to wear, but has a metal washer in a race.  This keeps everything perfectly centered, easy to turn and with low wear.

The restrictor is square shaped with rounded corners.  While some might complain about the feel of this, there are a couple of benefits that aren't immediately apparent.  The first is that diagonal based games work great with these in 8-way mode.  The shorter throw and the tactile feedback of the corners lets you hit diagonals perfectly.  The other is that even with an 8-way title, that little bit of extra feedback provided by the corners always lets you know exactly where you are pushing the stick.  Performance was improved on every title, even those where this is supposedly a hinderance.   Does it feel a little different?  Yes.  Is it a bad thing?  In my opinion, not at all.  And the score increases attested to that  .

There are a couple of differences between these sticks and others out there.  
I have heard that some other rotatable restrictor sticks will still allow you to hit 2 switches at the same time in 4-way mode.  Generally, this is not a good thing, and this absolutely can't happen with these.  Oh, and forget about a dedicated 4-way if you have one of these.  You won't need it.

The other is that the throw is shorter.  This is a blessing that you have to experience to appreciate and it only makes sense if you think about it.  Controls with long throws mean slower response times.  You either have to push farther to actuate the switch, or in the case where the stick is still allowed to travel past the point of actuation, move it farther in the opposite direction before it disengages.  Neither of these things reflects well on gaming performance, and is the reason why I can no longer bring myself to use an IL stick.

I hope to have a page devoted to these sticks up on my site in the next couple of days, and they will probably be available for sale even sooner.  I also have some other things in the works for these.  If anyone has any specific questions about the sticks, feel free to drop me a note.

RandyT

[pointdablame]

wow, thanks for all the replies, I have a lot more to think about that I first thought.

I have a question for you paige, or anyone who  may know: Aren't 8-way leaf sticks harder to install/maintain? I remember reading that you had to adjust them so that the buttons actually activate. Do you need to do this constantly? Also is the wiring any different compared to microswitch sticks? Any problems connecting them to an Ipac?

I don't have a whole lot of experience to compare controls (obviously) but I've always felt fairly comfortable with the Happ sticks. I don't know, I'll figure it out by this weekend when i order my parts. I'm thinking I'll go with Supers if I go the Happ route, but you really made me think about those 8-ways Paige.

[Apollo]

If you are going to go for Happs then take the Competitions over the Supers.
Leaf switch joysticks hardly ever need adjusting, you could go for years and possibly never have to adjust them.

[paigeoliver]

Adjusting a leaf switch stick is about a once a year thing, and that is under HEAVY play. The reason you hear about it is because back in the day an operator might have 400 leaf switch stick games on his route, which meant he would be adjusting one every day.

At home, forget about it, once you install it, then you will never have to mess with it again.

[pointdablame]

thanks again paige. One other thing, I saw the other post you made where you said make sure you get the longer stick if I go with the WICO leaf sticks. Does VideoConnection carry the longer stick? Or should I call them?  Anywhere else have them?

[Apollo]

Yeah yeah yeah thank Paige why dont ya, I gave you the answer first. Ingrate!  

[OSCAR]

What's the motion of the STC 500 like?  Is the 4-way like the J-Stick (square but angled at 45 degrees) or something else?  What's the 8-way motion like? (circular, square, or ... ?)

I haven't been able to find much information on the STC 500's.  Only Wico's page which is barely readable and doesn't provide much info or even a good picture of the mechanism.   A search in this forum didn't turn up anything useful.  

Well, not to bash Randy's upcoming offering, but I personally do NOT like the STC 500's.  And believe me, I've tried to like them, but I find them too distracting because of their very truncated feel.

There is a bit of misconception regarding joystick throw and when the actuator actually closes the switch.  It is true that the Happ's have a long throw, but there is still travel left in the stick after the m'switch closes.  The 500 travel stops almost immediately after the switch is closed.  A Wico Eurostick (Happ Comp with different switched & shaped handle) actuates the m'switches with the same amount of travel as the 500's, but it has a longer throw.  This gives you a bit of give and you don't "stop short" after every move against a hard stop like using the 500's.  Obviously if you are watching the gameplay, you can tell when your character moves in the direction you intend, you don't need the joystick to stop to tell you that...  This is why I actually like the Happ & Wico leaf sticks, there is travel left in the stick after you move in the direction you want and you don't feel like you are fighting the stick all the time.

Then there is the whole Happ/Wico (leaf) debate.  I would say that Wico 8-ways are very likely the best stick for a dedicated classic cabinet.  I couldn't imagine putting Comp's or P360's in a Robotron cabinet, however I don't mind playing Robotron with P360's in my MAME cabinet, if that makes sense.  I never once even considered putting anything other than Wico leafs in my Williams multigame cab.

I would not use Wico leafs for a MAME cabinet, however, where you intend to randomly play any one of 3000 games.  While I think the Wico leafs are a fantastic joystick, they do have limitations and playing MvsC (or any other recent fighter) just don't work.  A Happ Super or Comp just seems to be the best "do-all" joysticks if you had to pick just one to give decent gameplay in MAME games.  It's no wonder that companies like HanaHo, X-Arcade, SlikStik, etc use them.

[RandyT]

Well, not to bash Randy's upcoming offering, but I personally do NOT like the STC 500's.  And believe me, I've tried to like them, but I find them too distracting because of their very truncated feel.

I guess something like that is always going to be a "personal preference" kind of thing.  In my opinion, a long throw is only good on an analog stick.  My old original Wico leaf switch stick felt a lot closer to these than the sloppy Happ sticks.

There is a bit of misconception regarding joystick throw and when the actuator actually closes the switch.  It is true that the Happ's have a long throw, but there is still travel left in the stick after the m'switch closes.  The 500 travel stops almost immediately after the switch is closed.

Let's just say that this isn't my experience.  With the unit I have sitting on my lap, the microswitch "clicks" at about 1/3 of the travel of the stick.  This leaves the rest of the 2/3 of the travel for slop, which is plenty.

A Wico Eurostick (Happ Comp with different switched & shaped handle) actuates the m'switches with the same amount of travel as the 500's, but it has a longer throw.  This gives you a bit of give and you don't "stop short" after every move against a hard stop like using the 500's.  

Can't comment on the Eurosticks.  Don't have one.  But I do have an Xarcade, Super, Competition and Ultimate.  For "ham-fisted" fighting games, these might be the choice.  But for precision, I'll take the 500's.  I don't "stop short" when playing, but if you are used to using the Happs sticks and making gross movements with the stick, I'm not surprised that this would happen.

Obviously if you are watching the gameplay, you can tell when your character moves in the direction you intend, you don't need the joystick to stop to tell you that...  This is why I actually like the Happ & Wico leaf sticks, there is travel left in the stick after you move in the direction you want and you don't feel like you are fighting the stick all the time.

If this was actually the case, there wouldn't be a market for your restrictors .  Some panels even have "detents" at every one of the 8 positions, just so you could feel where you were moving the stick to.  If you rely totally on sight, the result is usually moving somewhere you didn't intend to in order to notice that you were in a diagonal, instead of moving left.  Most of the time, by the time you notice it, it's too late.  With these you can feel what you are doing.

A Happ Super or Comp just seems to be the best "do-all" joysticks if you had to pick just one to give decent gameplay in MAME games.  It's no wonder that companies like HanaHo, X-Arcade, SlikStik, etc use them.

It looks like we will be disagreeing on this one .  The 500 is 4/8 way switchable.  So unless you are stating that all those classic 4-way games play as well on the sticks you mentioned (without your 4-way restrictors ) as the 500 in 4-way mode, you might want reconsider that statement.  I can tell you for fact that they do not.  These have improved my game by about 50% even on the 8-way titles.

And there are lots of reasons why a company would choose one type over another.  Hanaho was first on the scene and catered to fighters.  Bat handles are a logical choice, because that's what the fighters in the arcade use.  No brainer.  Xarcade and SlikStik?  Well, I can't really speak for any of them, but the Hanaho was successful so why not follow their lead?  Heck, the Xarcade even had Chinese knockoffs made of the Happ sticks used in the HotRod.  While copying may be the sincerest form of flattery, copying a successful product also reduces risk.  But it doesn't mean that it's the best out there.

And here's a final thought.  I've been into this type of stuff since 10 cent pinball.  After installing the 500's in my panel, I offered to give away the Happ sticks they replaced.  I then ordered about $1000 in inventory because they impressed me so much....and I am not easily impressed.  It's time these things start getting the attention they deserve and stop the beating down they get by the "happ crowd".

RandyT

[OSCAR]

Let's just say that this isn't my experience.  With the unit I have sitting on my lap, the microswitch "clicks" at about 1/3 of the travel of the stick.  This leaves the rest of the 2/3 of the travel for slop, which is plenty.

I have 2 STC's in front of me right now.  Both click right at the end of their travel.  If they vary that much, I might be a bit concerned about their quality control.

Can't comment on the Eurosticks.  Don't have one.  But I do have an Xarcade, Super, Competition and Ultimate.  For "ham-fisted" fighting games, these might be the choice.  But for precision, I'll take the 500's.  I don't "stop short" when playing, but if you are used to using the Happs sticks and making gross movements with the stick, I'm not surprised that this would happen.

Like I said, with the 500's I have, they click right at the end of their travel, so they "stop short" every time.

These have improved my game by about 50% even on the 8-way titles.

I guess we will be disagreeing, then.  Unless you want to send me one of your 500's and I can compare it to the ones I have...  

My scores decreased by 50% using them.


Like I said, I'm not here to bash a product you plan to offer, it's just been my experience that the 500's would not be on my list of joysticks to use in a MAME project.  Hopefully one of the enhancements you plan to offer include a way to cleanly mount them into a wood panel without a huge hole to accomodate the boss without a dust cover!  

Good luck!


Kelsey

[snowbird]

I would like to jump in and say the the Suzo (STC) 500 can be mounted on a wood panel fairly easily:

- Drill a 1 3/4" hole 1/4" to 1/2" deep from the bottom of the panel with a Forstner bit (be careful not to drill through the panel).
- Drill a second concentric hole 1" or 1 1/8" diameter through the panel.
- Those 2 holes should create perfect a cavity for you to mount the STC 500 from the bottom (you have to remove the handle to fit it through the panel).
From the top you will only see the smaller 1" hole which if you prefer, can be covered by a plastic washer (like Happs).

Stick feel and travel are personal preferences, but I would also add that I have examined closely the build quality of the Happs and the Suzo 500, and the Suzo is clearly a much better build stick than the Happs; not to mention the flexibility of changing it to a 2/4/8 position.

[OSCAR]

I would like to jump in and say the the Suzo (STC) 500 can be mounted on a wood panel fairly easily:

- Drill a 1 3/4" hole 1/4" to 1/2" deep from the bottom of the panel with a Forstner bit (be careful not to drill through the panel).
- Drill a second concentric hole 1" or 1 1/8" diameter through the panel.
- Those 2 holes should create perfect a cavity for you to mount the STC 500 from the bottom (you have to remove the handle to fit it through the panel).
From the top you will only see the smaller 1" hole which if you prefer, can be covered by a plastic washer (like Happs).

This is the method of installation I commented about in my rough review I posted last Decemeber here:  http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3733.  I'm glad that type of installation worked out for you, it's how i had them installed in one of my test panels.

[RandyT]

I have 2 STC's in front of me right now.  Both click right at the end of their travel.  If they vary that much, I might be a bit concerned about their quality control.

I have 100 of them in front of me, and they don't click at the end of their travel like you are saying.  Not even close.  You didn't swap out the micros with a different brand did you?  This could account for the difference.  

As for "quality control", the construction and engineering goes well beyond what I have seen in any other stick.

I guess we will be disagreeing, then.  Unless you want to send me one of your 500's and I can compare it to the ones I have...  

Would a video suffice?

My scores decreased by 50% using them.

Then you would be in the minority from what I have heard around here from people who like them.  But everyone has different play styles based on what they are used to.  I am used to "old school", not modern day fighters.

Like I said, I'm not here to bash a product you plan to offer, it's just been my experience that the 500's would not be on my list of joysticks to use in a MAME project.

If you're not "bashing", then why am I defending ?    Oh, and I place them at the top of my list, and I'm not alone.

Hopefully one of the enhancements you plan to offer include a way to cleanly mount them into a wood panel without a huge hole to accomodate the boss without a dust cover!  

Absolutely.  As well as some other neat stuff .  

But since you brought up mounting, tell me you're not saying that a floppy plastic disc sliding around on top of your panel is "clean".  Just about no-one actually mounts those the way they are supposed to, which is a recess under the overlay for the "dust cover" with a hole above just big enough for the stick to clear.  But you know that, because I saw you do it for your Williams panel.  That is a clean mount

For the 500's, the cleanest wood mount, outside of a mounting plate, can be achieved by recessing the back of the panel leaving 3/8 of material and making a 1.75" hole for the "boss".  This keeps you from having to disassemble the stick to install it (like you do with some other styles) and it looks good.  There is no need for a "dust cover" as these are designed not to allow dust inside.

There are a number of other methods for mounting these and they will be discussed on my site.  

RandyT

*edit*
spelling

[OSCAR]

I have 100 of them in front of me, and they don't click at the end of their travel like you are saying.  Not even close.  You didn't swap out the micros with a different brand did you?  This could account for the difference.

Nope.  Both are stock.

Would a video suffice?

That's not exactly "hands-on", now is it?  

I am used to "old school", not modern day fighters.

So am I.  Funny I never saw Suzo 500's on a Pac-Man, Robotron, Berzerk, etc cabinet, though....

I will respectively bow out of this thread since this is a product you will be offering and obviously nothing I say will be "right" anyway.  You like these joysticks, and I don't; that's fine.  We know each other's feelings on the subject, and we won't be changing each other's minds with a few words here.

[RandyT]

I have 100 of them in front of me, and they don't click at the end of their travel like you are saying.  Not even close.  You didn't swap out the micros with a different brand did you?  This could account for the difference.

Nope.  Both are stock.

Then I don't understand, because I don't see what you do.

Ok,  I know you are going to hate me and accuse me of setting you up (like you did last time   ) but I just read your preliminary review and I'm going to quote you in a couple places:

"I mentioned the short travel of these sticks already, and now you can see that the actuator is designed for immediate action, as well.  A microswitch is activated almost immediately after the joystick is moved off-center."

and

"Since the Suzo 500 has a short throw and the actuator activates the microswitches almost immediately upon movement of the joystick shaft, the extra force in the spring helps to keep the joystick centered and prevent accidental contact of adjacent microswitches; i.e., hitting Up-Left when Up was intended.  This gives the Suzo 500 a higher degree of precision."

Neither of the above sound like the switches are actuating at the end of the travel, rather at the beginning.  So the question is, what has changed with your sticks that make your above statements no longer true?

I am used to "old school", not modern day fighters.

So am I.  Funny I never saw Suzo 500's on a Pac-Man, Robotron, Berzerk, etc cabinet, though....

At least the 500 has a ball top, 4 or 8 way and a shorter throw more reminiscent of the older sticks.  Are you saying an 8way only bat handle stick is better for these?

I will respectively bow out of this thread since this is a product you will be offering and obviously nothing I say will be "right" anyway.  You like these joysticks, and I don't; that's fine.  We know each other's feelings on the subject, and we won't be changing each other's minds with a few words here.

Fair enough, but I would be defending these regardless of whether I am offering them or not.  But now you have made contradictory statements that we need to get to the bottom of .

RandyT

[hooded_paladin]

I will respectively bow out of this thread since this is a product you will be offering and obviously nothing I say will be "right" anyway.  You like these joysticks, and I don't; that's fine.  We know each other's feelings on the subject, and we won't be changing each other's minds with a few words here.

Aww, we love watching arcade parts suppliers duking it out...
just kidding.  I'm so glad cool heads always prevail on these forums.

[AndyWarne]

I'm confused!

I have been wondering whether to resell the System 500 sticks for a while. Easy to do as the manufacturers are 2 miles from my house. They are just so "different" though, as attested to here, and now I am even further away from deciding whether or not to stock them.
Nobody has mentioned one unique feature of these, when you rotate the restrictor the microswitches move in or out slightly. Hence the difference in the travel.

At the end of the day, it's totally down to personal preference, rather like a thread recommending someone which car to buy, no firm conclusion will ever be reached.

[OSCAR]

Then I don't understand, because I don't see what you do.

Ok,  I know you are going to hate me and accuse me of setting you up (like you did last time   ) but I just read your preliminary review and I'm going to quote you in a couple places:

I don't hate anybody, but I do find your "gotcha's" amusing...  

Let me explain as clearly as I can...  The stick I had about a year ago that I used to jot down my initial findings I no longer have.  About 6 mos ago, I purchased 2 more STC sticks from Wico, and I have those now.  The new sticks have black m'switches on them, and the first one I had used red/white switches.  As you said yourself, changing the switches is likely to cause a difference in the actuation point, which is apparently what the manufacturer did.

At least the 500 has a ball top, 4 or 8 way and a shorter throw more reminiscent of the older sticks.  Are you saying an 8way only bat handle stick is better for these?

No.  I prefer the Wico rubber grommet leaf sticks for those.




Black.  (Your appropriate response here will be "White").    

[Vol]

Perhaps I can distract you two with a question:

How would each of you rate the Happs P360 in comparison to the Wico Leafs, STC 500s, and T or J stick?  For all types of games.

[RandyT]

Let me explain as clearly as I can...  The stick I had about a year ago that I used to jot down my initial findings I no longer have.  About 6 mos ago, I purchased 2 more STC sticks from Wico, and I have those now.  The new sticks have black m'switches on them, and the first one I had used red/white switches.  As you said yourself, changing the switches is likely to cause a difference in the actuation point, which is apparently what the manufacturer did.

Well at least we are at the bottom of this.  Seeing that the switches in your pictures are white, I'm suprised you didn't come upon this sooner.

So I guess your comments are not applicable, as all the switches in the sticks I have are the white ones and do not behave remotely like the statements you made in this thread.

But this is interesting and brings up a question for anyone out there following this and has one of the 500's.  What color are the switches on yours?  Maybe some valuable information can be gleaned from this thread after all.

At least the 500 has a ball top, 4 or 8 way and a shorter throw more reminiscent of the older sticks.  Are you saying an 8way only bat handle stick is better for these?

No.  I prefer the Wico rubber grommet leaf sticks for those.

Actually I do too.  But since WICO doesn't sell them anymore and most people can't seem to be bothered with the leaf switches, the 500's are, IMHO, a good compromise.

Black.  (Your appropriate response here will be "White").    

Nice way to try to minimize my points, without actually addressing them directly, by inferring that I am merely being "contrary". I'll have to remember that one  

BTW, "purple"

RandyT

*edit*
ommitted "the" - fixed

[OSCAR]

Well at least we are at the bottom of this.  Seeing that the switches in your pictures are white, I'm suprised you didn't come upon this sooner.

Those pictures are almost a year old and only exist on my webserver.  I wasn't even looking at those when making my comments, I was looking at the joystick in front of me which was 6 mos. newer than the "old" one.  And since it seemed to me that you were just going attack/refute anything I said, I didn't really care if you knew that or not.

So I guess your comments are not applicable, as all the switches in the sticks I have are the white ones and do not behave remotely like the statements you made in this thread.

They are very applicable.  Especially since they describe exactly the joysticks I purchased.  Keep in mind that my comments were based on my experience with the 500's that were, until just recently, in my test panel.  I was not trying to describe the joysticks you bought.  Obviously there are differences, direct from the manufacturer/supplier.  Yours have white switches, that's great.  Mine have black.





I am so done with this thread...  And I mean it this time.

[BlackThorne]

Can anybody tell me if Ultimarcs J-Stik is any good? I was going to get one of those cause i like the ball-top and i want an easy 4-way/8-way-switchable stick. On the second thought ball-top whouldn't actually be that necessary. I'll probably use it for fighter games mostly.

[snowbird]

Can anybody tell me if Ultimarcs J-Stik is any good? I was going to get one of those cause i like the ball-top and i want an easy 4-way/8-way-switchable stick. On the second thought ball-top whouldn't actually be that necessary. I'll probably use it for fighter games mostly.

A friend of mine just bought one and I played with it for a little bit.  It is made by Sanwa and the quality looks good.  It has similar swing to that of the Happs competition.
The 4/8 way switch plate is easy to use and works as advertised.

[Grasshopper]

OK, FWIW my opinions on the STC 500 joysticks are as follows:

I think they are very underrated and it's a shame that more people don't use them. I can understand why people who are used to the Happ/IL sticks find their short travel a bit odd at first. However if you persevere with them you'll find that they offer very precise gameplay and good feedback.

As someone else said, they are designed to be mounted in metal however with some routing or the use of a spacer they can be mounted in wood. They actually look better when mounted in wood (IMHO). There are a few problems with mounting them though:

*  First of all, the part of the handle below the ball top is tapered so it's very difficult to fit a dust washer, and dust washers do make a panel look cleaner (IMHO) regardless of whether or not they are actually needed.

*  Secondly, if you want to make the hole on your panel as small as possible you'll have to dismantle the joystick before fitting it. Unfortunately, this is very difficult because the clip used to hold the joystick together is of a different type to the ones fitted to the IL joysticks, and it is very difficult to remove without a special tool.

IMHO they are a better substitute for the Wico leaf sticks than the IL sticks for the following reasons:

* They have a ball top handle with a similar diameter to the Wico handles.

* They have a stiff spring and the Wico joysticks are also fairly stiff (at least when new).

* They have a short throw. Actually the Wico Leafs do have a longer throw (somewhere between the STC 500's throw and the Super/Competition's throw). However, if it's a choice between a joystick with a shorter than expected throw and one with a longer than expected throw, I'll take the shorter throw any day.

*  In 4-way mode they are genuine 4-way sticks with a diamond shaped restrictor (however they feel slightly better in 8-way mode IMHO).

I was considering asking the guy who sells replica handles on Ebay (n2new@aol.com) to make a handle for my STC 500. This would solve the dust washer problem.

Oscar: My joystick (which I bought from Suzo) came with red and white cherry switches, exactly the same type of switches that were supplied with my pushbuttons. I've had no problems with the actuation point. I'm curious to know what brand the black microswitches fitted to your joysticks are? Hopefully not Crouzet. I've got Crouzet microswitches fitted to my T-Stik and they are very stiff and noisy.

Andy: The feature you mention about the microswitches moving in and out when you rotate the restrictor plate is not actually unique because the T-Stik achieves the same effect by a different method. It's a bit difficult to explain in words but if you look at the T-Stik you'll see what I mean. Actually, I think the T-Stik has a superior 4-8 way switching mechanism but it doesn't feel as smooth probably because of the type of microswitches fitted.

[pointdablame]

my god, what did I start??? No fighting in my thread guys, I don't wanna be the start of a war, hehe j/k

Thanks for the replies to my initial questions, and all the added info I've learned about the 500  

I think I'm either going to go with the Competitions or the 8way WICO leaf sticks, I didnt see anyone answer my question on where I can get the "longer shaft" ones tho that I saw paigeoliver talk about in another post. Does videoconnection have them if I call them? Anyone know somewhere else I can get them? otherwise, looks like the comps win by default.

[paigeoliver]

I bought my long shaft Wico 8-ways from Bob Roberts. They are not on the website, but he has them.

www.therealbobroberts.com

Complete long shaft Wicos pop up on ebay from time to time, and just the long handles (new) are on there all the time.

Here is a long handled one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3244921796&category=13718

Don't buy this next one. Seller has a Wico leaf bottom and a Happ/iL Super top. They don't fit together (I already sent them an email explaining that, wonder what kind of reply I will get).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=3245329514

[Tiger-Heli]

I was considering asking the guy who sells replica handles on Ebay (n2new@aol.com) to make a handle for my STC 500. This would solve the dust washer problem.

Ask him to offer them on his site as well.  If I read OSCAR's review correctly, the Super, Comp, and STC 500 all use a 10mm shaft, so it would just be a matter of adding a new notch position to the shafts he already sells to support the STC 500.

[Grasshopper]

I was considering asking the guy who sells replica handles on Ebay (n2new@aol.com) to make a handle for my STC 500. This would solve the dust washer problem.

Ask him to offer them on his site as well.  If I read OSCAR's review correctly, the Super, Comp, and STC 500 all use a 10mm shaft, so it would just be a matter of adding a new notch position to the shafts he already sells to support the STC 500.

Yes, that's exactly what I thought. It would be really cool if he produced generic shafts with a lot of notches that could be fitted to STC 500s, Supers, Competitions, and perhaps even some of the other IL joysticks. It's always good to keep your options open.

Unfortunately, customised shafts are probably going to be expensive if ordered in small quantities. Maybe if a few of us chip together....

Paige: I wasn't aware that Bob Roberts still sold Wico leaf joysticks with a long shaft. Can you tell me how much he charges, what colours are available, and more importantly does he still stock 4-way Wicos?

I've been a bit reluctant to order from him in the past because he doesn't accepy Paypal (I know a lot of people including yourself hate Paypal, but it's very convenient if you're ordering from overseas) however if he still strocks 4-ways Wicos then I might be tempted to bite the bullet.

Thanks in advance