small (few inputs) keyboard encoder selection help

[abrannan]

I'm creating a "throwaway" cabinet project to stick into my Reactor Cab to make it usable until I can afford to restore it.  The original control panel has been converted many times, and has a lot of extra holes in it.  However, the layout is perfect for what I want to do MAMEing it.  

I will have

1 - trackball (hacked mouse interface)
6 buttons (two set of three, one set on each side of the TB)
1 joystick
2 player start buttons
1 admin button

I figure I only need 11 inputs (4-joy, 3-buttons, 2- start, 1-admin, 1-coin door).  The encoders I've found out there all have way too many inputs and are too expensive for this "throwaway" project.  Does anyone know of an encoder that will meet my needs for cheap?  I've seen one that looked like a ps/2 cable attached to a barrier strip that seems like it will work, but I can't find it anymore, and I don't know what it was called.  I think it was posted in this thread:

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=11499


Or, am I better off hacking a keyboard?

[tmasman]

Personally I'd say hack a keyboard!
You only really need to avoid ghosting on the 4-joy & 3 buttons
Which is by far easy to do with most keyboards.

Heck, I'll hack a keyboard & map out the matrix for you for $12 + shipping.
I've done a few of them & I would probably just send you one I've got sitting around.

The small encoders you were talking about might have had enough connections, but if I remember correctly they may have only had 9 inputs. (or maybe it was 11)...

Eh..
Let me know if you want/need any help.

<edit>
Yeah... That encoder has 11 inputs... But the guy that was selling them on ebay hasn't had them on there for a while.

[eightbit]

My opinion-
Easiest cheapest keyboard encoder I know of is the keywiz http://www.groovygamegear.com and starts at $27.

The cheapest way to interface controls (not as easy as the key wiz) that I have seen is a microsoft sidewinder joystick. I bought some for $3 each. You can have 14 inputs. They have nicely labeled easy to solder to pads and use a common ground. There is a wonderfull write up here http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_staticx.shtml to explain exactly how to do it. I've done it and would be happy to answer any questions you might have. Heres a link to the cab I built using this interface - http://mame.hower.us/rallyx/

I'd recomend the keywiz because of its flexibility and ease of installation, but if cheap is what you want then the sidewinder joystick would be my recomendation for you.

[abrannan]

Hadn't considered the Sidewinder idea...  I'll probably just hack up one of the spare keyboards I've got laying around.  This is essentially a "get-the-cab-running-something-quick-to-justify-its-existence-in-the-house-so-the-wife-doesn't-get-mad" sort of project.

[SirPeale]

Hadn't considered the Sidewinder idea...  I'll probably just hack up one of the spare keyboards I've got laying around.  This is essentially a "get-the-cab-running-something-quick-to-justify-its-existence-in-the-house-so-the-wife-doesn't-get-mad" sort of project.

Get a KeyWiz.  You can always move it to the finished cabinet when you actually do make it.

[PacManFan]

I'm creating a "throwaway" cabinet project to stick into my Reactor Cab to make it usable until I can afford to restore it.  The original control panel has been converted many times, and has a lot of extra holes in it.  However, the layout is perfect for what I want to do MAMEing it.  

I will have

1 - trackball (hacked mouse interface)
6 buttons (two set of three, one set on each side of the TB)
1 joystick
2 player start buttons
1 admin button

I figure I only need 11 inputs (4-joy, 3-buttons, 2- start, 1-admin, 1-coin door).  The encoders I've found out there all have way too many inputs and are too expensive for this "throwaway" project.  Does anyone know of an encoder that will meet my needs for cheap?  I've seen one that looked like a ps/2 cable attached to a barrier strip that seems like it will work, but I can't find it anymore, and I don't know what it was called.  I think it was posted in this thread:

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=11499


Or, am I better off hacking a keyboard?

abrannan
Give me a call, and stop by my house later, and I'll give you a controller you can hack, I forgot what it's called, but it has programable buttons, and it inputs directly to your ps2 port like a keyboard. It's got like 14 buttons.
-PMF

[Tiger-Heli]

abrannan
Give me a call, and stop by my house later, and I'll give you a controller you can hack, I forgot what it's called, but it has programable buttons, and it inputs directly to your ps2 port like a keyboard. It's got like 14 buttons.
-PMF

PowerRamp MITE, most likely

[Lilwolf]

Order of ease to hack

1) Keyboard encoder... of course.. but can cost a bit.

2) Joystick / thumbpads.... Soldering needed... sometimes very hard soldering... and limited inputs... No ghosting problems... No max number of key problems... They are all ment to be pushed at once..  Some PC games require a different input source per player... so you can play some 2+ player games with this that you can't with either other solution (without software hacks)

3) Keyboard.  Endless number of keys to use... but the trick is finding the ones that you can use.  Next hoping you aren't going to use an emulator/game that you can't change.  Finding a good solution with one brand name keyboard doesn't mean you can redo it... Many keyboard manufacturers will change keyboard encoders often with the same model number keyboards.  Somepeople have hacking keyboards down, but expect that they spend a great deal of time / effort doing it.  

[tmasman]

KB Hacking is always a touchy subject around here... I'm still not quite sure why though. Every time some one mentions that they want to try one, or that it is what they did, they get chastized. (sp?)
...

I don't understand the problem... I've hacked a few keyboards for 1 player set-ups & I would never change them. I've never had problems with them and they fit their purpose perfectly.  Sure, it may take less time to go with something else, but if you've got a broken KB or easy access to cheap ones, some times it's just easier to spend 3 hours on a project than spend $40 (Standard Keywiz + ship).  Not that your time is only worth $13/hr, but some times you can't or don't want to spend that money.

If you've got a KB sitting around & don't mind the few hours it will take to hack apart, solder, map out the matrix, & pick the best key combos, then by all means get to hacking!

Eh... That's just my 24

[SirPeale]

KB Hacking is always a touchy subject around here... I'm still not quite sure why though. Every time some one mentions that they want to try one, or that it is what they did, they get chastized. (sp?)

I think it's not so much chastised as just trying to save some aggrivation.  When I first started my project, I, too was going to do a keyboard hack.  It wasn't the hacking, mapping involved, it was the soldering.  I used too much heat, and all the traces pulled up.  Not only that, but the ones that did survive mostly had cold joints.  It was a disaster.

Not all people have luck like mine, like you, Tmasman.  But you're only going for a couple inputs, I was going for a full blown CP.  I do plan on doing another hack, but this one's going to be my Galaxian/Galaga/Ms Pac/Pac countertop.

[SirPeale]

KB Hacking is always a touchy subject around here... I'm still not quite sure why though. Every time some one mentions that they want to try one, or that it is what they did, they get chastized. (sp?)

I think part of the reason I'm against a keyboard hack in THIS case is he's just looking for an interim solution until he does the same cabinet over.  Since he's going to be doing the same cab over again, it only makes sense for him to use an encoder he can reuse, as opposed to something he would have to replace anyway.

[tmasman]

From his first post I was assuming that he was restoring it to an original Reactor game... & he just wanted something to play with until he got the $$$ to do the restoration...
Eh. No biggy either way.

[abrannan]

Tmasman is right.  This is only temporary until I can get the parts and (more importantly) the money to do a full restoration of the system.  I already have a portable MAME setup, and I did use an IPAC for that, but this was just going to fill the cabinet in the meantime.  

Many thanks to PacManFan for the controller.  It's perfect for what I'm trying to do.  14 inputs, programmable, ps/2 interface, what more could I ask for?

[RandyT]

I don't understand the problem... I've hacked a few keyboards for 1 player set-ups & I would never change them. I've never had problems with them and they fit their purpose perfectly.  Sure, it may take less time to go with something else, but if you've got a broken KB or easy access to cheap ones, some times it's just easier to spend 3 hours on a project than spend $40 (Standard Keywiz + ship).  Not that your time is only worth $13/hr, but some times you can't or don't want to spend

Heh.  First of all, I need to correct you on something.  If you are already holding a soldering iron in your hand and looking for cheap, you would want to get a KeyWiz Eco, not a Standard.  And those are are $26.95 and $33.95 respectively, plus shipping, not $40 plus shipping.  If you have to exaggerate, please don't do it with my prices .

The other thing you fail to realize is that you are basing an awful lot on what you are capable of.  I know many many people who have never even seen a soldering iron in action, let alone used one for something as delicate as hacking a keyboard.

No-one gets "chastized" for doing it or even for wanting to.  However, a lot of people feel that pushing someone in that direction with knowing their skillsets, is not only bad advice, but possibly even irresponsible.  Most of us are here to help people, not set them up for a fall.

And one final note to abrannan:

If what you received was a PowerRamp Mite, as Tiger-Heli speculated, be sure to avoid using the "4-way" in the middle of the controller, or make them admin buttons.  These inputs have real issues with lag for some reason.  Good luck with your project.

RandyT

[tmasman]

some times it's just easier to spend 3 hours on a project than spend $40 (Standard Keywiz + ship).  

Heh.  First of all, I need to correct you on something.  If you are already holding a soldering iron in your hand and looking for cheap, you would want to get a KeyWiz Eco, not a Standard.  And those are are $26.95 and $33.95 respectively, plus shipping, not $40 plus shipping.  If you have to exaggerate, please don't do it with my prices .

um...
First of all I didn't exagerate...
$33.95 + $6.50 shipping is (hold on... let me get out the calculator, I don't want to mess with your prices...) $40.45 (cost + shipping)...
Oh wait, I did exagerate... It's more than $40! (Give me a break! I even mentioned that the $40 was with shipping. Read it again, I didn't say it still needed shipping added I said that $40 was the cost plus shipping)

Granted the eco is cheaper, but I didn't know the price off the top of my head. So I made sure to mention that price was for the standard.

If I do get an encoder in the future one of the first ones I'll look at is the keywiz. It seems to be a great product & I'm not saying anything bad about it (or you).

As far as being "irresponsible" for "pushing someone in that direction"... I thought this was a Do-It-Yourself kind of website... Um... If you don't like some one's advice, you don't take it. There are almost always a variety of opinions & people giving different advice. I'm just giving my point of view.

Granted not everyone here has the same skillset, but they wouldn't be here if they weren't willing to try something new.

I had never held a soldering iron before until I did my first keyboard hack either. I'm not a guru, or electrical engineer. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe I'm just smart enough to look up information & seek advice before I start a project that gets into things that I haven't done before. (I think it's a mix of both).

I'd think that most of the guys here are smart enough to educate themselves according to what they are trying to do. ( I want to solder... I'll read up on how to solder, I want to build an arcade cabinet... I'll see how other people are doing it & get their advice.)

I'm not trying to start a flame war here.  I'm just trying to let you know where I'm coming from.

~tmasman

[RandyT]

um...
First of all I didn't exagerate...
$33.95 + $6.50 shipping is (hold on... let me get out the calculator, I don't want to mess with your prices...) $40.45 (cost + shipping)...
Oh wait, I did exagerate... It's more than $40! (Give me a break! I even mentioned that the $40 was with shipping. Read it again, I didn't say it still needed shipping added I said that $40 was the cost plus shipping)

Granted the eco is cheaper, but I didn't know the price off the top of my head. So I made sure to mention that price was for the standard.

Sorry, misread it.  My brain put a comma in where there wasn't one (I'm getting old...it happens )

But when talking cost differences between a keyboard hack and an encoder, the Eco puts it a lot closer to an "apples to apples" comparison.  But even then, the Eco is about 50 times easier to solder to, has more usable inputs, is programmable, etc, etc.  And it's a lot less than $40  ($33.50 delivered.)

If I do get an encoder in the future one of the first ones I'll look at is the keywiz. It seems to be a great product & I'm not saying anything bad about it (or you).

Thanks, I wasn't taking offense (still not, even).  It just seemed that your numbers were skewed a little to favor your point.  I now see it wasn't the numbers so much as the model you compared against.

As far as being "irresponsible" for "pushing someone in that direction"... I thought this was a Do-It-Yourself kind of website... Um... If you don't like some one's advice, you don't take it. There are almost always a variety of opinions & people giving different advice. I'm just giving my point of view.

When someone comes to you with a question and you realize that this person has no experience with the subject they are asking about, do you give them the answer that will allow a skilled individual to succeed 35% of the time or an answer that allows a novice to succeed nearly 100% of the time?  

If one were already skilled, most of the time they wouldn't be here asking about it, they would be doing it.  

I had never held a soldering iron before until I did my first keyboard hack either. I'm not a guru, or electrical engineer. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe I'm just smart enough to look up information & seek advice before I start a project that gets into things that I haven't done before. (I think it's a mix of both).

I am old and traveled enough to know that you can't expect others to be able to do what you can.  They may be able to, you just can't expect it.  7 years as a process development engineer taught me that one  .

Some people are born with incredible balance or climbing abilities, while others can't perform a simple jumping jack.  It doesn't mean one is better than the other, just differently abled.

I'd think that most of the guys here are smart enough to educate themselves according to what they are trying to do. ( I want to solder... I'll read up on how to solder, I want to build an arcade cabinet... I'll see how other people are doing it & get their advice.)

It's not about "smart".  I have repaired the mistakes of a good number of "smart" people that did the research.  Being educated on a topic and being able to carry out what is learned are entirely different accomplishments.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here.  I'm just trying to let you know where I'm coming from.

And neither am I.  I can't speak for everyone here that is down on keyboard hacking, but I'd like to think it is to help ensure success to those who are seeking help.  That is where I am coming from.

RandyT

[eightbit]

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HACKING A KEYBOARD. Well as long as you don't mind wasting a keyboard and your time.  

I don't think keyboard hacking is frowned upon I think people that have done it are just trying to save others the time and agravation that it caused them. Their has been so much negative discussed about it that even people like me that haven't actually done it will tell you not to do it.

I've read many a keyboard hacking write up that explained how to do it and they either start or end with this is how I did it but I wouldn't do it again.

[abrannan]

I believe (but I don't have it sitting in front of me) that what PacManFan gave me was an Interact 3d program pad (PMF correct me if I'm wrong).  So if you know any particular probelms with that controller, I'd love to hear them.

For the record, I can solder (only ruined 3 playstation controllers to hack the two I've got in the other project, but now I know what I'm doing)  

[PacManFan]

Yeah, they're Interact 3d program pads. I picked up a few a while back, along with some other Interact programmable joysticks. They should be fairly easy to hack. I don't think there should be any problems with it. It's even got a keyboard passthough so you can daisy chain 2 or more together with a keyboard.
Let me know how it goes abrannan.
-PMF

[Lilwolf]

Since I started some of this.

I don't frown on keyboard hacking... Almost all of us here have done it... Then replaced it with another solution.

I hacked a keyboard... Had some ghosting issues  Not bad...  And it was, back then, impossible to have one keyboard setup for all emulators... many you coudln't change the defaults.

So I went with a powerramp (the big brother of the powermite).  Great solutions... was missing 1 (annoying) so I couldn't get 2 players with 6 buttons each... So it worked until I created a 2player solution.

Then I went to a real encoder (mk64)..

and what I was saying is that each one solves a little more then the other.  

Ive never ever ever heard one person say... "I have this encoder... and... well... I wish I was still using my keyboard hack... I loved that hack!"...

I've never ever ever heard one person even say... "I have this encoder...but I wish I had saved the money and done a keyboard hack"..

why?  They are worth the time and money hands down.  But if you have more time then money... or just the parts and you want to play with it...  Hack a keyboard... Some people have great results!  But they put the energy to get it that way.

[bloodyviking77]

Funny this topic should come up again just now . . .
I just decided to "re-hack" my first ever keyboard hack for my second project.

Why?

Well, my first project was the usual small 2 player 6 button desktop controller for which I hacked a super-old AT keyboard (the pcb in the thing is as long as the keyboard, and has two gigantic chips on it that look like they were made a good few years ago when chunky was all the rage. )

Worked fine, and I bashed away at 1942, willow and galaga and beat the hell out of my brother in MK and SF2 and generally had fun for six months or so.

But then some cold joints/loose connections started to reveal themselves - intermitten failure on some buttons. Also, this was in the day before controller.ini files, and my cfg would occasionally become corrupted and I would have to laboriously re-enter all the controls in MAME, as the obtuse key combinations forced on me by the KB hack would be lost.

So I bought an IPAC2 (much to my beloved's chagrin) for the fairly substantial sum of about $90 AUD shipped.

Never looked back - no problems from day one, all inputs mapped to MAME standards.

But now I'm putting together a cab, don't have the sheckles to shell out for another IPAC and don't want to kill my desktop CP, so am resorting to my old hacked kb.

I went through and spent around 4 hours re-soldering all my connections to an IDE cable (had tons lying around) and hacked together a little junction box so I can make the cab's CP swappable if I ever get around to building another one. Spent another hour or so re-mapping the matrix and choosing keys. (by the way, the faq at www.mameworld.net/emuadvice/keyhack2.html is still probably the best write up I've read).

So far, the rehack is performing admirably - though cab is still in process so no realworld testing yet  

Moral of the story?

Notwithstanding Randy's comments above about the price of the keywiz (which is quite reasonable), if it costs anything, that's more than nothing, which is what a KB hack costs (except time) if all the junk is lying around waiting to be used.

Therefore, to me:

no cash = kb hack.

cashed up = ipac/keywiz/etc etc


Isn't part of the project making the whole thing take as long as possible anyway!!

Sorry for the long post - its late and I have to say I'm a little pleased with myself for getting the hack to work again (it had been squashed in a drawer for nearly two years!)

cheers
bviking

[Tiger-Heli]

(by the way, the faq at www.mameworld.net/emuadvice/keyhack2.html is still probably the best write up I've read).

Thanks, should be even better now.  I just upped a revised version.  It now supports 4-player 2-button games, and the intro now heavily recommends the KeyWiz Eco.