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Author Topic: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....  (Read 37103 times)

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CheffoJeffo

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #120 on: May 09, 2012, 12:12:06 pm »
You can't adjust them to the same extent without affecting the long term durability and function of the switch, and from a manufacturing standpoint, it takes more time and effort to do this than simply using the correct part to achieve the desired goal.

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boardjunkie

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2012, 12:15:24 pm »
Ok...here's the height you end up with mounting under 3/4" wood.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62937081@N00/7165445970/#

Now if you use the washer under the metal....what do you think is gonna happen? Finger pinching. Duh.

So like I said...it was done out of necessity.

boardjunkie

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2012, 12:21:28 pm »
I don't buy that. You can adjust the switches for any sensitivity you want.

Williams used wooden panels thus they needed the extra length for clearance.

...even though your explanation would appear to make sense, since Wicos were regularly mounted in wood panels with 3.5" shafts.

You can't adjust them to the same extent without affecting the long term durability and function of the switch, and from a manufacturing standpoint, it takes more time and effort to do this than simply using the correct part to achieve the desired goal.

RandyT

Sure you can....small switch adjustments make a big difference in overall sensitivity. And the switch ain't gonna break just because you adjust it once.

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2012, 12:27:33 pm »
Im with Randy on this one.  The longer shafts were probably to reduce directional issues.  The leverage produced may have
also added to better control.. due to less fatigue (you can overcome the centering gromet easier).  Additionally, the added height
may have been to avoid pinching or hand-cramped space issues.


CheffoJeffo

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2012, 12:33:42 pm »
Ok...here's the height you end up with mounting under 3/4" wood.



Now if you use the washer under the metal....what do you think is gonna happen? Finger pinching. Duh.

So like I said...it was done out of necessity.


I'll start by pointing out that Williams mounted their dust washers in a routed recess under the overlay. No finger pinching.

Next, I'll hit you with the fact that other Williams games, also with wood panels, actually used shorter shafts (with different sticks). Why didn't, for example, Williams go with a 4" shaft on Sinistar ?

And then, I'll ask you why Midway didn't use 4" shafts on the myriad (e.g. far more than the 2 games from Williams) cabinets they made using wood panels and Wico sticks.

Answer those questions and I may concede that you may have a point.

Or you can continue to ignore the facts, which are pretty clear -- lots of wood panels, lots of 3.5" shafts, only 2 games with 4" shafts.

EDIT: Tried to Img-fu around bj's flickr link, but failed ... you have to click his link.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 12:35:23 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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boardjunkie

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2012, 12:40:48 pm »
I think its more a case of players noticing the subtle difference of the taller ones after using different controls thru emulation. Nobody cared/argued about it 20 years ago....

So we won't know for sure unless we get the story straight from someone who was involved in production of the game. Anyone have Larry or Eugene's contact info?

CheffoJeffo

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #126 on: May 09, 2012, 12:41:55 pm »
I think its more a case of players noticing the subtle difference of the taller ones after using different controls thru emulation. Nobody cared/argued about it 20 years ago....

That's because back then all cabinets had the right controls.

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boardjunkie

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2012, 12:47:39 pm »
Back then they were all be'n converted into SF2 and MK ;) Myself having "done the deed" too many times to count. I hated to do it, but thats what the ops wanted...and they write the checks....

CheffoJeffo

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2012, 12:48:39 pm »
Back then they were all be'n converted into SF2 and MK ;) Myself having "done the deed" too many times to count. I hated to do it, but thats what the ops wanted...and they write the checks....

On that we can definitely agree ...  :cheers:
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boardjunkie

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2012, 02:48:34 pm »
Ok, here it is direct from Larry DeMar:

My memory is that the taller sticks were used to minimize the knuckle-scraping on the panel. Also, in that height, the standard Wico joystick had a thinner shaft. The sticks used on Robotron had a much thicker shaft as the standard sticks could be bent when play becomes vigorous enough to move the machine using the 2 ":handles". I don't remember whether the fat shaft stick was stocked by Wico or whether they developed this variant especially for Robotron. I suspect it was the latter. -Larry

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #130 on: May 09, 2012, 02:52:25 pm »
Well, while I might like to argue, that is definitely the most authoritative answer I have seen to date.

I still can't think of *any* game that used 4" shafts other than Robotron and Smash TV (so have no idea what "standard Wico joystick" came in the same height).

Heck, didn't Splat! use 3.5" shafts.

 :cheers: for following up on it.
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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #131 on: May 10, 2012, 12:27:58 pm »
Ok, here it is direct from Larry DeMar:

My memory is that the taller sticks were used to minimize the knuckle-scraping on the panel. Also, in that height, the standard Wico joystick had a thinner shaft. The sticks used on Robotron had a much thicker shaft as the standard sticks could be bent when play becomes vigorous enough to move the machine using the 2 ":handles". I don't remember whether the fat shaft stick was stocked by Wico or whether they developed this variant especially for Robotron. I suspect it was the latter. -Larry

Based on the following;

Quote
The dual joystick control design resulted from two experiences in Jarvis's life: an automobile accident and playing Berzerk. Prior to beginning development, Jarvis injured his right hand in an accident—his hand was still in a cast when he returned to work, which prevented him from using a traditional joystick with a button. While in rehabilitation, he thought of Berzerk.[7][9] Though Jarvis enjoyed the game and similar titles, he was dissatisfied with the control scheme; Berzerk used a single joystick to move the on-screen character and a button to fire the weapon, which would shoot the same direction the character was facing.[7][10] Jarvis noticed that if the button was held down, the character would remain stationary and the joystick could be used to fire in any direction.[4][10] This method of play inspired Jarvis to add a second joystick dedicated to aiming the direction projectiles were shot.

...it seems as though Jarvis had more to do with the controls selection and implementation.  "My memory is" is not a definitive statement, and implies either a layer of removal from the process, or at minimum, a poor recollection.  It's also probable that control selection was based on play testing at Williams, who likely made the final decision about which controls were used.  

....small switch adjustments make a big difference in overall sensitivity. And the switch ain't gonna break just because you adjust it once.

See the attached diagram.  These are rough, but close scale drawings from one of my WICO's.  The first two are 3.5" and 4" shafts at the same angle, and show the difference in throw for the user.  The last is the short stick at the same throw distance as the long one.  There is a ~50% difference in switch gap represented.  You might say "big deal", but it is.  There is so much difference that, when the gap is adjusted, the stick cannot even be pushed far enough to close the contacts, due to the mechanical restriction of the stick.  Also keep in mind that these sticks are circularly restricted.  If it can't (or barely) be hit in a primary direction, in the diagonal, the contacts would be "a country mile" apart.

I'm not saying that "knuckle scraping" considerations did not come into play in the length selection, but it certainly wasn't the only, or perhaps even the primary consideration.  There's too much evidence to the contrary.

RandyT
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 12:38:04 pm by RandyT »

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #132 on: May 10, 2012, 03:11:09 pm »
See the attached diagram.  These are rough, but close scale drawings from one of my WICO's.  The first two are 3.5" and 4" shafts at the same angle, and show the difference in throw for the user.  The last is the short stick at the same throw distance as the long one.  There is a ~50% difference in switch gap represented.  You might say "big deal", but it is.  There is so much difference that, when the gap is adjusted, the stick cannot even be pushed far enough to close the contacts, due to the mechanical restriction of the stick.  Also keep in mind that these sticks are circularly restricted.  If it can't (or barely) be hit in a primary direction, in the diagonal, the contacts would be "a country mile" apart.

I'm not saying that "knuckle scraping" considerations did not come into play in the length selection, but it certainly wasn't the only, or perhaps even the primary consideration.  There's too much evidence to the contrary.

RandyT

This is more along the lines of what I figured the technical reason for the 4" shaft was. 

The Knuckle Scraping reason seems a bit strange to me. If you look at the original robotron panel, the joystick routing in the wood isn't very deep at all for mounting, so the joystick shaft doesn't sit that much higher than a normal joystick, above the panel (accounting for the 3/4" wood). I'll have to take measurements above the panel when I get home, but that doesn't seem like the whole story to me.

Eugene Jarvis is going to be at the North West Pinball and Arcade Show next month, I plan on going, and want to hear him speak at his panel. If I can get the question in, I'll ask him why they choose the 4" over the 3.5" for Robotron.

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #133 on: June 10, 2012, 07:34:29 pm »
I played another Robo today. It was a nicer machine and had the 4" shafts. He said he didn't know how old they were, but seemed pretty new to me. It felt like the grommets were new and not broken in. Much like my NOS flight stick: smooth movement but a ---smurfing--- pig to move. I struggled to break 200k on default settings (although at least the shaft length meant I wasn't worried about ganking my fingers). My P360s have a heavy spring, but they are still way easier to move around and find diagonals than these leaf sticks were. Like the difference between hydralic and mechanical movement.




I'll start by pointing out that Williams mounted their dust washers in a routed recess under the overlay. No finger pinching.

No, pinching between the stick shaft and the edge of the shaft hole in the CP.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 07:41:02 pm by Gray_Area »
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boardjunkie

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Re: I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....
« Reply #134 on: June 10, 2012, 10:06:43 pm »
Right. Either that or part of your finger getting "sucked under" the metal via the dust washer.

And before you all jump on me say'n it can't happen, it used to happen to me on certain games when I was a kid. This was the early 80s and panels with washers on top were not common. Off topic, but the ball controller on Kick/Kickman was notorious for this.