I think I hate leaf switch sticks.....

[Gray_Area]

It's funny, because I just love my P360s, so it's not a 'missing the clickety-click' thing.

The other night, I played a restored Robotron with repro leaf sticks. While I did fairlly well, and was able to make some fantastic hooks and dodges, I found (especially later on in the game) I was trying to find the 'directions', particularly on the right (shooting) stick. Some of it might've been fatigue, but I only scored 832k. I've managed 6M on my P360s.

Oh, and I pinched my finger between the stick shaft and the panel....because the dust washers were underneath. That was discouraging. Actually killed my last dude in the process.

[JODY]

What kind of repro leaf sticks?  I've heard the Chinese ones are bad.

One thing about leafs is they can be out of adjustment.  If they are not adjustmented so they have the same gap and aren't bent out of shape, they will not feel right and may cause issues going certain directions.

[Xiaou2]

The Repo leaf sticks are made wrong, and are not recommended.

 Try to get the real deal, if possible.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Don't judge a leaf stick by a Chinese reproduction.

Play Robotron with a pair of NOS Wico leaf sticks 

[Vigo]

Wico Leafs are the awesome. (As long as you clean them and tune them)

[Donkbaca]

Leaf sticks are a pain in the ass, P360's are the best sticks IMHO

[Green Giant]

If you don't like them, then you probably don't have old balls.


There seems to be some sort of link between old balls and having a fanboy love of anything leaf.

[opt2not]

Leaf sticks are a pain in the ass, P360's are the best sticks IMHO

Blanket statement.

P360s are very good sticks. But the best? Not for all games, sorry.
I wouldn't touch a P360 with a 10 foot pole for fighters, or shmups .

And no physical 4-way restriction?  Fffff-that! What's a pac-MAN to do??

Original Wico's for Robotron is where it's at. Sweet delicate leafs, sturdy low-bounce-back rubber grommit...and 4" shafts.  that's the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- right there son.
I'm a big supporter of playing games on the hardware they were made for.   All those conversion kit games can use whatever hardware, who cares...but for the dedicated games, nothing beats the original hardware.

[Donkbaca]

You wouldn't touch it with a 10foot pole for fighters, despite the fact that it was the arcade stick of choice for late 90's fighters here in the US?


I am not a big fan boy for hardware.  I don't think there was much thought put into it, the reason that leaf sticks were used is because they were the only things they had around.

That being said, if you are going dedicated, go original hardware

[RandyT]

I don't think there was much thought put into it, the reason that leaf sticks were used is because they were the only things they had around.

The "microswitch" has been commercially available since 1937.  I guess 40 years wasn't long enough for the arcade manufacturers to catch wind of it 

[Vigo]

I didn't really read the post from donk as meaning that microswitches weren't available....I more read it that leafs were just the dominant type of joystick available for commercial machines. It was the norm.

[opt2not]

You wouldn't touch it with a 10foot pole for fighters, despite the fact that it was the arcade stick of choice for late 90's fighters here in the US?

Most conversion cabinets used microswitch Wico's, which I'm fine with. Dynamos are probably what you remember as being late 90's US fighter cabinets. But these are not dedicated cabinets, they were built with the main idea of being able to swap out kits. Hence, those  standardize joystick is good to support a multitude of different games.

I'm talking about real dedicated cabinets of the classics, like the aforementioned Robotron.

With original hardware, Robotron is absolutely fantastic. Before I finally found my grail, I played Robotron in Mame on microswitch Wico's, P360's, and even tried JLW's. They did the trick for a time, but didn't feel exactly right to what I remembered. When I finally found my cabinet, I immediately cleaned up the Wico Leafswitch sticks, got NOS grommets and leafs, and adjusted the leafs to perfection. My high scores tripled!
Gah, I really got to find time to restore my cabinet to minty fresh...

[mytymaus007]

Leaf sticks are a pain in the ass, P360's are the best sticks IMHO

Blanket statement.

P360s are very good sticks. But the best? Not for all games, sorry.
I wouldn't touch a P360 with a 10 foot pole for fighters, or shmups .

And no physical 4-way restriction?  Fffff-that! What's a pac-MAN to do??

Original Wico's for Robotron is where it's at. Sweet delicate leafs, sturdy low-bounce-back rubber grommit...and 4" shafts.  that's the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- right there son.
I'm a big supporter of playing games on the hardware they were made for.   All those conversion kit games can use whatever hardware, who cares...but for the dedicated games, nothing beats the original hardware.

Hey since we are talking robotron leaf switches, Why did you refer to the sturdy low-bounce-back rubber grommit in that manner "does the grommit come in different grades because i think mine are very stiff and wish i can get sturdy low-bounce-back rubber grommits please let me know!!!!!!!!!!

[Green Giant]

I don't think there was much thought put into it, the reason that leaf sticks were used is because they were the only things they had around.

The "microswitch" has been commercially available since 1937.  I guess 40 years wasn't long enough for the arcade manufacturers to catch wind of it 

Get your facts straight son.

Max Wiezer said "aint no crappy ass microswitches in my products".  Hence there were no microswitches.


Also the patent probably would have put a damper on profits.

[opt2not]

Hey since we are talking robotron leaf switches, Why did you refer to the sturdy low-bounce-back rubber grommit in that manner "does the grommit come in different grades because i think mine are very stiff and wish i can get sturdy low-bounce-back rubber grommits please let me know!!!!!!!!!!

Heh, I mean they don't bounce back much aka "wobble" when you let go of the stick!  They return to center pretty solid.

Sorry, I'm gettin' that 3pm low energy lull...must pound back a cup of coffee...

Nice thing about those rubber grommets is the more you play with them, the better they feel.

[smartbomb2084]

So is anyone making any repro 4 inch red ball WICO type joystick shafts for ROBOTRON these days?

I got a set off of eBay for $55 plus back in 2004 when I needed them and would have paid $155 plus... you just gotta have them to play original ROBOTRON.

The centering grommets are key.  I'm sure we have all found vintage cabs with WICO joysticks only to find  that the shaft has rusted itself to the centering grommet and the only way to remove it to reuse the joystick base is destruction of the shaft and grommet.

I just bought 2 spares. I've never seen them cheaper.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-WICO-Joystick-CENTER-GROMMET-FINAL-QUANTITY-/170758988415?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c207627f

[CheffoJeffo]

I don't think there was much thought put into it, the reason that leaf sticks were used is because they were the only things they had around.

The "microswitch" has been commercially available since 1937.  I guess 40 years wasn't long enough for the arcade manufacturers to catch wind of it 

Get your facts straight son.

Max Wiezer said "aint no crappy ass microswitches in my products".  Hence there were no microswitches.

Except for those Wico sticks that did use microswitches ...  

I am not a big fan boy for hardware.  I don't think there was much thought put into it, the reason that leaf sticks were used is because they were the only things they had around.

I dunno about that -- there were a number of fundamentally different sticks available back then.

So is anyone making any repro 4 inch red ball WICO type joystick shafts for ROBOTRON these days?

I got a set off of eBay for $55 plus back in 2004 when I needed them and would have paid $155 plus... you just gotta have them to play original ROBOTRON.

I think that KevSteele just got the very last of the latest batch of 4" shafts for his Robotron. I don't hold out hope for more to be made.

Nobody ever played with 4" Wico leafs and had a score go down from whatever other stick they played on. It is THE stick for Robotron. 

[Donkbaca]

To clarify, I am skeptical that the hardware was picked specifically because it was the optimum one for the game.  I think it was picked because they had it around.  If anything I think those companies were more concerned with catering to operators and distributors than they were to actual gamers and the gaming experience.


I was more shocked at the P360 comment re fighters since that is what MKII cabs came with from what I recalled.

[smartbomb2084]

Nobody ever played with 4" Wicoleafs and had a score go down from whatever other stick they played on. It is THE stick for Robotron.  

'Nuff Said. That is the best line I have heard yet this year.

I'll bet their scores even went UP using them...

 

[CheffoJeffo]

To clarify, I am skeptical that the hardware was picked specifically because it was the optimum one for the game.  I think it was picked because they had it around.

Of course, because Williams had used Wico leaf sticks in all of their other games to date ... 

[opt2not]

So is anyone making any repro 4 inch red ball WICO type joystick shafts for ROBOTRON these days?

I got a set off of eBay for $55 plus back in 2004 when I needed them and would have paid $155 plus... you just gotta have them to play original ROBOTRON.

Wolfeel over at KLOV had a run of NOS ones last year. I'm not sure if he has any left, but you could try asking him. I think he had them for $50 shipped, so slightly cheaper than what you saw back in '04.
There was talk about making another run, as well as hallowed shaft versions. I'm not sure if that was just talk though.

The centering grommets are key.  I'm sure we have all found vintage cabs with WICO joysticks only to find  that the shaft has rusted itself to the centering grommet and the only way to remove it to reuse the joystick base is destruction of the shaft and grommet.

I just bought 2 spares. I've never seen them cheaper.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-WICO-Joystick-CENTER-GROMMET-FINAL-QUANTITY-/170758988415?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c207627f

That's where I got mine too.
Bob Roberts has grommets for the midway sticks (pacman, etc...), not sure if he stocked the Wico ones.

I was more shocked at the P360 comment re fighters since that is what MKII cabs came with from what I recalled.

I wouldn't touch any MK game with a ten foot pole either.  

[Xiaou2]

To clarify, I am skeptical that the hardware was picked specifically because it was the optimum one for the game.  I think it was picked because they had it around.

 Many Arcade companies made their own controller devices from Scratch.  Such as the Hard Drivin Shifter, wheel, and pedal sets.   Discs of Tron Spinner.  Pole Position wheel & shifter.  Sega Turbo geared wheel + 4 position optical pedal set, 4" Diameter trackball on X O Football / Missile Command...  and much more.   

 In fact, Marble Madness creators were originally trying to make a motorized force-feedback trackball set.  Unfortunately, they couldnt get it to work right & ran out of time... so used the standard design instead.

 Back in those days, it wasnt about being generic carbon-copy and cheap.  It was about making games that were optimized to the Player experience,  Breaking technical ground,  And pushing the limits on hardware & programming to the maximum.  Games were far better balanced, and challenging, as they actually spend a Lot of dedicated time to make games Play better.

were more concerned with catering to operators and distributors than they were to actual gamers and the gaming experience.

 Furthest from reality of the 80s to early/mid 90s.  Thats more of the Modern attitude, and the reason why the arcades Sunk.

 And furthermore, the Arcade designers didnt care much about catering to the Ops much at all.  Try to find and then read coin meters on 20 games in a row.  They are all over the place. Some, in places that are very hard to get at or read.  Some cabs are a nightmare to work on and get at components.  I could go on and on.  Games were designed to appeal to the players.. as the players happiness meant more earnings and sales.  End Of Line.

 Generic controllers came as a means of convenience.  A company producing mass amounts of controls & parts for cheap, with good quality. 

 Also, when certain designs were proven effective, they had no need to be re-invented / re-designed / custom built.  IE, the standard Trackball design has never really changed much.

 Leafs have some Excellent properties... but, they were somewhat unreliable as they can get out of whack over time.. and they need to be kept cleaned.  However, games like Galaga or Asteriods Deluxe still play better with Leafs, as you can activate the button with a light touch, not needing to Clash the button all the way down (less player fatigue & faster shoots).  And leaf sticks were actually more durable, compared to the earlier microswitch designs.  (Happ Ultimates eat through spacers in a matter of a few months)

 

I was more shocked at the P360 comment re fighters since that is what MKII cabs came with from what I recalled.

 Doubtful... and even if it was so, they were probably taken out really quickly when they failed.


I worked for Time Out, both before and after the Namco buyout.  NONE of the fighters had the 360 in them.  Not in ANY of the 3 locations in my city,  nor as far as Ive heard & seen, in any arcade owned by Namco.  (many stores swapped games often, and Namco owned a good deal of the Mall arcade stores)

 All the new fighters, and even many older titles, used Happs Comps.  A limited few had supers.

 Optical sticks are expensive (hence they were Not in most arcades), and optics have and can do fail just like anything else.  And when they fail, its much more of a pain and expense, to deal with it.  A micro can be swapped in a minute or so, depending on crimp -vs- soldered terminals.

 One thing about Leaf sticks.. is that you can use them on such a way that you rarely bottom them out.  Meaning, you never really smash the stick into the edges of the mechanism.. and even if you do, most of the forces are very dull due to the rubber grommet, the leaf springs themselves, and the way things are assembled.  Every time you jolt on other controllers.. it adds up to a certain level of stress fatigue.  Where as leaf controls are more 'floaty' and can be used for longer duration with less discomfort.


 I have not used a 360, so I cant comment about how they feel and react.  I do however know the Wico Leafs, Comps, and many others to which to compare with... and nothing Ive used works better for classics like Robotron than the Wico leaf sticks... even if they are more of a pain to maintain / adjust every so often.

[RandyT]

I didn't really read the post from donk as meaning that microswitches weren't available....I more read it that leafs were just the dominant type of joystick available for commercial machines. It was the norm.

As others have stated; it was "the norm" for a reason, and that reason isn't because it was "what they had laying around".  There are fundamental differences in performance between the two switch types.  There is no reset phase in the operation of a leaf switch.  This is a big plus for a number of gaming controller applications. 

My take on it is that the industry went to snap action switches primarily at the behest of the operators who may have had hundreds of machines on a route, making regular maintenance a nightmare.  Snap action switches smash through corrosion or dirt much better than the wiping action of the leaf.  The wiping action also wears the heck out of the contacts when a leaf is poorly adjusted and/or improperly installed.  But this change didn't enhance the experience of the customer when playing the game, other than that the controller on a neglected machine would at least work.

[CheffoJeffo]

I didn't really read the post from donk as meaning that microswitches weren't available....I more read it that leafs were just the dominant type of joystick available for commercial machines. It was the norm.

As others have stated; it was "the norm" for a reason, and that reason isn't because it was "what they had laying around".  There are fundamental differences in performance between the two switch types.  There is no reset phase in the operation of a leaf switch.  This is a big plus for a number of gaming controller applications. 

My take on it is that the industry went to snap action switches primarily at the behest of the operators who may have had hundreds of machines on a route, making regular maintenance a nightmare.  Snap action switches smash through corrosion or dirt much better than the wiping action of the leaf.  The wiping action also wears the heck out of the contacts when a leaf is poorly adjusted and/or improperly installed.  But this change didn't enhance the experience of the customer when playing the game, other than that the controller on a neglected machine would at least work.

THIS.

FWIW, there were microswitch-based joys at the time ... and they were made of Strongtanium(tm).

Nintendo used microswitches for damned near everything.

If, in any thread, Cheffo, RandyT and Xiaou2 all agree, well then either they are talking about what should be an obvious truth or you had best be watching for the four horsemen.

[smartbomb2084]

If you ask me (and nobody did) I would say that the move from leaf switch to microswitch has to be related to cost and/or ease of manufacturing.

Seldom is a better more expensive product used when manufacturing costs directly affect the bottom line.

Leaf switches are made of metal, a lot of metal, and that equals money.

[opt2not]

If, in any thread, Cheffo, RandyT and Xiaou2 all agree, well then either they are talking about what should be an obvious truth or you had best be watching for the four horsemen.

 

Truth.

[Vigo]

I didn't really read the post from donk as meaning that microswitches weren't available....I more read it that leafs were just the dominant type of joystick available for commercial machines. It was the norm.

As others have stated; it was "the norm" for a reason, and that reason isn't because it was "what they had laying around".  There are fundamental differences in performance between the two switch types.  There is no reset phase in the operation of a leaf switch.  This is a big plus for a number of gaming controller applications. 

My take on it is that the industry went to snap action switches primarily at the behest of the operators who may have had hundreds of machines on a route, making regular maintenance a nightmare.  Snap action switches smash through corrosion or dirt much better than the wiping action of the leaf.  The wiping action also wears the heck out of the contacts when a leaf is poorly adjusted and/or improperly installed.  But this change didn't enhance the experience of the customer when playing the game, other than that the controller on a neglected machine would at least work.

Well, I didn't really state there wasn't a real reason for it being the norm. In fact I wasn't really stating anything other than my interpretation of what donk said. I do agree with you that leafs were considered the standard at the time for a darn good reason. I personally love leafs.

I will agree with donk though that probably quite a few games with leafs that were never tested to see how they worked with other various joysticks. If the game worked well with leafs, they would just go with a leaf joy like wico or their own company's proprietary leaf joy. Maybe they would tinker around with shafts but that is about it. Why step into a completely new joystick unless there was a reason to do so?

Therefore, when someone takes only the staunch purist view that when someone says that X game came dedicated with Y joystick, therefore Y is the best joystick for the game....well that may be true, it may not be true. Depends on the game. But if Y joystick is a leaf, chances are it will play well if not the best with the game.

I do agree about the statements the micros became big due to cost and whim of the Ops. Just seems like more of the disposable option. Everybody wins...well, maybe not the gamer.

[Green Giant]

I didn't really read the post from donk as meaning that microswitches weren't available....I more read it that leafs were just the dominant type of joystick available for commercial machines. It was the norm.

As others have stated; it was "the norm" for a reason, and that reason isn't because it was "what they had laying around".  There are fundamental differences in performance between the two switch types.  There is no reset phase in the operation of a leaf switch.  This is a big plus for a number of gaming controller applications. 

My take on it is that the industry went to snap action switches primarily at the behest of the operators who may have had hundreds of machines on a route, making regular maintenance a nightmare.  Snap action switches smash through corrosion or dirt much better than the wiping action of the leaf.  The wiping action also wears the heck out of the contacts when a leaf is poorly adjusted and/or improperly installed.  But this change didn't enhance the experience of the customer when playing the game, other than that the controller on a neglected machine would at least work.

THIS.

FWIW, there were microswitch-based joys at the time ... and they were made of Strongtanium(tm).

Where do I get one of those?

[Xiaou2]

will agree with donk though that probably quite a few games with leafs that were never tested to see how they worked with other various joysticks. If the game worked well with leafs, they would just go with a leaf joy like wico or their own company's proprietary leaf joy.

 The older arcade machines were tested to the hilt.  Back then, playability was the main focus.. because games didnt have amazing graphical 'sparkle' to wow the players with.

 If you look at a game like Gyruss... it uses a non wico leaf joystick that was custom, called a 'Monroe' stick.  Its design was made to be more durable and enhanced for the type of gameplay used.. which was basically rolling the stick in an outside circle.. constantly.  They could have used a standard wico.. and more than likely tried it in tests... but found the experience translated to problems with quick stick wear... and thus playability issues.

 A games controller was key to how a game played, and how it developed in its creation.  Its not like today... where games are altered to be easier, so that Any type of controller could be used with it.  Back then, they made games super critical and balanced tightly. Hard Time limits, skin-of-your-teeth reactions needed.

[Vigo]

Sure, that's true sometimes, but look at games like Gauntlet and Indiana Jones. They used the Atari logo leafs, I am sorry but those joysticks are just dogs... Apologies to the "Atari logo joystick fanboys" that I am upsetting, but there is no chance in hell the Atari developers tested to the hilt and found that those gruesome beasts were the sticks that worked best of all. They had them, they worked, end of line.

[Donkbaca]

Not to mention the horrible layout on the gauntlet cab itself.

I don't buy the fanboy "they wanted the optimum experience"  They weren't selling to gamers, they were selling to Ops, so things like a good looking cab and having it easy to maintain were probably higher up on their priority list.  I doubt, if you actually talked to any of the designers that they would honestly say that they picked the parts that they did because they wanted to give the optimum experience, they were cranking out several titles a year, there just couldn't have been that much time for the care and testing and fine tuning that X2 implies happened.

In fact, back then you had dedicated hardware people and dedicated software people.  The software folks would design and test the game and then the hardware folks would design the cabinet after the fact.  To say that leaf sticks were picked because robotron was designed for leaf sticks just isn't true, I found this interview with the designer:

http://www.dadgum.com/halcyon/BOOK/JARVIS.HTM

The prototype was a "Defender" game with a "Stargate" board and a couple of Atari 2600 joysticks screwed to the control panel.

The 2600 sticks are not leaf sticks.

It seems to me from reading various things about the development of the game from the designer himself that all he cared about was having two joysticks, I don't think he went to the next level and thought about types of joysticks.

[CheffoJeffo]

Whoa, son of genesim ! 

[DaveMMR]

I don't buy the fanboy "they wanted the optimum experience"  They weren't selling to gamers, they were selling to Ops, so things like a good looking cab and having it easy to maintain were probably higher up on their priority list.

To add to Donkbaca's Robotron example, there was also Marble Madness. Mark Cerny wanted motorized trackballs for a more realistic game experience. But Atari correctly assumed it would be a nightmare to keep functional. So regular Trackballs it was.

[CheffoJeffo]

I don't buy the fanboy "they wanted the optimum experience" 

It's really a matter of philosophy. What is the objective of writing a game? I write a video game for the sole purpose of providing the player with the most awesome experience possible. The best interaction with the highest possible frame rate and quality.

The prototype was a "Defender" game with a "Stargate" board and a couple of Atari 2600 joysticks screwed to the control panel.

The 2600 sticks are not leaf sticks.

It seems to me from reading various things about the development of the game from the designer himself that all he cared about was having two joysticks, I don't think he went to the next level and thought about types of joysticks.

So, apparently they didn't have any Wico leaf sticks lying around as you claim. 

[RandyT]

Not to mention the horrible layout on the gauntlet cab itself.

I don't buy the fanboy "they wanted the optimum experience"  They weren't selling to gamers, they were selling to Ops, so things like a good looking cab and having it easy to maintain were probably higher up on their priority list.  I doubt, if you actually talked to any of the designers that they would honestly say that they picked the parts that they did because they wanted to give the optimum experience, they were cranking out several titles a year, there just couldn't have been that much time for the care and testing and fine tuning that X2 implies happened.

In fact, back then you had dedicated hardware people and dedicated software people.  The software folks would design and test the game and then the hardware folks would design the cabinet after the fact.  To say that leaf sticks were picked because robotron was designed for leaf sticks just isn't true, I found this interview with the designer:

http://www.dadgum.com/halcyon/BOOK/JARVIS.HTM

The prototype was a "Defender" game with a "Stargate" board and a couple of Atari 2600 joysticks screwed to the control panel.

The 2600 sticks are not leaf sticks.

It seems to me from reading various things about the development of the game from the designer himself that all he cared about was having two joysticks, I don't think he went to the next level and thought about types of joysticks.

The first prototype for the modern automobile was a horse carriage with a motor bastardized into it.  This means nothing.

Honestly, folks who think like this have NEVER been involved in real product design at a large company.  It's true that there are departments which handle different aspects of design and production, but to assume that they each exist in a vacuum is silly at best.  They co-ordinate extensively, and if the controls do not meet the approval of the designer, they don't get used.  Period.  Arcade games which did not perform well for the player, did not get played.  Games which do not get played, lose money for the operator.  Operators who lose money on a title from a manufacturer, don't buy more titles from said manufacturer.  It's simple economics in action, and it does not support the assertion being made.

To add to Donkbaca's Robotron example, there was also Marble Madness. Mark Cerny wanted motorized trackballs for a more realistic game experience. But Atari correctly assumed it would be a nightmare to keep functional. So regular Trackballs it was.

You may wish to note that that title did not use a typical trackball installation.  It was oriented very differently, and programmed specifically to support this orientation, in order to provide a better gaming experience for that particular game.  Your example actually proves he is incorrect.

[Donkbaca]

Nope, the hardware guys had wico leaf sticks laying around so they used them in the build.  They horde the good stuff from themselves so that the software folks don't mess it up

[CheffoJeffo]

Nope, the hardware guys had wico leaf sticks laying around so they used them in the build.  They horde the good stuff from themselves so that the software folks don't mess it up

Reference ?

As I said before, it must have been from all of the previous Williams cabs that used Wico leaf sticks ...

[DaveMMR]

You may wish to note that that title did not use a typical trackball installation.  It was oriented very differently, and programmed specifically to support this orientation, in order to provide a better gaming experience for that particular game.  Your example actually proves he is incorrect.

It wasn't THAT special, Randy.  They just installed them at 45 degree angles. They were still just regular Atari trackballs. That'd be like saying the builders who put their outside sticks at angles on 4-player panels are using "special" joysticks.

I don't 100% agree that all games are made without input from the designers and programmers, but I do believe from a money standpoint, there were certainly games who's controls were simplified for cost concerns and not typically for the "ultimate game experience".  

(sorry for all the edits - I keep hitting save before finishing)

2nd edit: Just reread and saw Xiaou2 mentioned the motorized trackballs in his post:

In fact, Marble Madness creators were originally trying to make a motorized force-feedback trackball set.  Unfortunately, they couldnt get it to work right & ran out of time... so used the standard design instead.

I'm not going to argue as to whether it really was a time situation or Atari, as I read it, just basically said it was unfeasible but these companies weren't really known for nurturing their artists ahead of profit so I'm more apt to believe they followed the "simple = cheap" rule.

[RandyT]

It wasn't THAT special, Randy.  They just installed them at 45 degree angles. They were still just regular Atari trackballs.

Well it was special to the point that, AFAIK, it was the only game in history to have used a trackball in that way, and it was done so to enhance that particular game.  While the trackball itself wasn't that special, the extra effort in the code and what seems to be an ultimate decision to take this mounting approach after finding that it improved the experience, shows that there was much more going on than to just "throw a trackball in there and call it a day".  And that's kind of the point being discussed.

I don't 100% agree that all games are made without input from the designers and programmers, but I do believe from a money standpoint, there were certainly games who's controls were simplified for cost concerns and not typically for the "ultimate game experience".  

There are obviously going to be exceptions to any rule.  However, the controls were (are) where the "rubber meets the road"  in the arcade industry.  For a company to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in the programming, hardware design, artwork, cabinet design, production, marketing, etc.. and then make the game play poorly (or at least not as well as it could), to save $40 per unit, which is passed on to the operator, makes absolutely no sense.  It's not only counter-intuitive, but it makes poor economic sense.   A great example is a game like Arkanoid, considered a classic by most.  They could have used a pot based control, as did every one of it's predecessors of the same genre, but they chose to go with not only an optical control, but one which had a very specific feel.  It you want to assert that such decisions were arbitrary, and that the success of the game was accidental, I don't have anything specific to refute that.  I can only state that it was terribly unlikely to have taken that path, based on so many other similar examples.

[Donkbaca]

you guys make it seem like there is some huge collaborative effort on each game.  Maybe, but I tend to think like most companies you had an assembly line.  The software guys do the software, the artists do the flyers and marquees and cabinet art and the hardware dudes built the machines.  Any revolution was probably done more as a marketing gimmick and on a whim rather then being the result of careful research to maximize the playability of games.  These companies were churning out 3-4 games a year, they didn't have the time to put in that kind of effort per game