Dual Mode Joystick Analog and Digital values on the fly switch any options?

[Aberran]

I have learned that around here its best to say everything you intend something to do to get the best advice so lets setup the situation.

Dreamcast/Naomi/Atomiswave and most likely more emulation.  I would like to have a single and preferable analog capable joystick serve as both the Digital and Analog joysticks.  I would love a way to toggle one on and the other off on the fly.  Is this at all possible with what is on the market right now.  Or am I going have to set it up in software by redirecting inputs or some sort of similar trick. 

Thank you
Aberran

[ivwshane]

You can do what you want with the ultimarc u360 sticks. They use a mapping program that will automatically tell the sticks what kind of controller it is, ie analog, 4-way, 8-way, etc.
http://www.ultimarc.com/ultrastik_info.html

[Aberran]

Does that not just change the behavior of a stick so if I mapped it to analog and switch a map to digital the emulator would still think analog but only be able to be full analog value instead of the range that an analog stick would have?  Maybe I failed again here, but that does not seem to be the solution I am looking for at this time at least not to my eyes.  I already know for consoles I must give up on analog being practical. But don't mind one interface for pc one for consoles.  Yet it seems like even in PCs there are a lot of give and take.  Maybe I ll just have to make 3 or 4 "interfaces in a box"

[*Kegger*]

As ivwshane recommended the U360 will do what you want. Without the sticks and software it is hard to understand but when you map to a 4 or 8 way the stick acts just like a digital stick. The mapping software gives you more options for how the stick responds because you can adjust the dead zones. When in analog mode the maps disappear. There is usually no replacement for a consoles original controls but if that option isn't available the u360 do a pretty good job.

[Aberran]

I could be mistaking but Andy himself told me in an email that the U360 always sends analog X/Y information to the computer the only way to change that is to send it to an encoder and than it would send keyboard strokes.  I can't get PPjoy to do hatswitch values nothing I have seen works for me at least besides rerouting it through glovepie but even than the X/Y value cannot be blocked and will be given to the computer.

[Nephasth]

You don't need an encoder when using U360s. They can be be mapped as 2/4/8-way ditigal sticks or as analog sticks and changed between any of those modes based on game or even emulator selection. They are recognized by the computer as game pad devices. All you need to do is set your emualtor inputs to the U360 gamepad signals. There is no need to try and trick your computer into seeing them as keyboards. LEDBlinky is a nice program that will remap your U360s automatically for you on the fly.

[Aberran]

I looked up LEDBLINKY and still fail to see how the U360 or it with the U360 can be the solution I am looking for ... are they like the elephant in the room or what am I missing here?

[NickG]

Not sure what you are missing, you should be able to do most of what you need using plugins+scripting.  If you need to actually switch on the fly within a game, then you may be enthused to know that mechanical locations exist for levered micro-switches on U360s.  I added some to mine after failing to be able to use mapping in order to play games in frequent repeated taps in single directions are necessary.  I used a separate encoder for the micro-switches.  For console use, the micro-switches of the joy and buttons could be connected to the d-pads and pushbuttons, and the U360 could be used in output mode to the analog.  I originally intended to build out for consoles, but I don't have enough analog arcade-style console games which I cannot emulate on PC to warrant building interface boxe(s).

[Aberran]

How than would you turn off the X/Y output I was under the impression as long as its plugged into the computer it sends that and by putting it through an encoder it just sends both inputs at the same time.

[Nephasth]

... are they like the elephant in the room or what am I missing here?

You're either over thinking this or over looking information. The U360s send a digital signal to the computer when it is mapped as a 2/4/8-way joystick. I would also say that 98% of the time, U360s are used as digital sticks. The mappings of U360s change based on game selection in MAME (thanks to mame.ini, and maybe controls.ini when used with LEDBlinky) and based on emulator selection when used with LEDBlinky.

Here's some info you may or may not have read yet:
http://ultimarc.com/ultrastik_inst.html
http://www.dndw.com/ledblinky/Support.htm#U360MAMEMap
And page 60 of this: http://www.dndw.com/ledblinky/downloads/Install%20and%20Config.pdf

If the U360's mappings didn't change automatically, not as many people would be using them. They work, now buy them.

[Aberran]

I guess I am just hopeless my buyer beware senses are just going off constantly.  Are there any premade joysticks that use analog sticks maybe I can mod one of those to get the results I am after?  I am unconvinced that a digital signal is ever used by the U360 just does not read to me that way and Andy would confirm it does not or did I misunderstand him?  Anyways once you load a game is the map selected so you could not change it mid game if you so desired?

[Nephasth]

Anyways once you load a game is the map selected so you could not change it mid game if you so desired?

Didn't realize you want to change it mid game. I thought you wanted to be able to change it per game. Sorry for the confusion. Out of curiosity, why would you ever want to change it mid game? Why not have it set to what you want it to be when the game starts?

[Aberran]

I am sure of two things

Not all Emulators are going work automatically with the mapping.  I know LEDBLINKY

Some Console games use the DPAD for menus while the Analog stick for movement and many are now emulated. You never have to do both at the same time but sometimes the switching back and forth is a quick and minimizing the game to swap the interface values over or whatever you would have to do would be not what games are intended to be. FUN. Guess I can just give up on these ones and use a gamepad.

Other concerns.  Most emulators do not have game to game control settings will this not be a problem.  They have a generic set for all the games emulated just not all uses all of the buttons/sticks.  For example ZINC or DEMUL

[NickG]

I am sure of two things

Not all Emulators are going work automatically with the mapping.  I know LEDBLINKY

Some Console games use the DPAD for menus while the Analog stick for movement and many are now emulated. You never have to do both at the same time but sometimes the switching back and forth is a quick and minimizing the game to swap the interface values over or whatever you would have to do would be not what games are intended to be. FUN. Guess I can just give up on these ones and use a gamepad.

Other concerns.  Most emulators do not have game to game control settings will this not be a problem.  They have a generic set for all the games emulated just not all uses all of the buttons/sticks.  For example ZINC or DEMUL

If you want need active dynamic switching, going with the hardware solution of added microswitches may prove easiest.  You would want to run the U360 in analog output mode, and use a gamepad hack or an encoder with analog options.  The switching can be done via button on the cp (or the joy with topfiremod) using additional hardware.

Your game to game settings may be automated using a frontend, scripting.

[Aberran]

Nick G any details on how one would do that?  Analog output? and you would have to run the digital outs to resistors when in Output mode and not doing output ... what would you put on a switch the ground? nah because it would still have a ground and I would guess it would still register both values.  If you got an idea please share I am willing to try just about anything

[Aberran]

Would it look anything like this? Pardon my newbness on any of this and my quick MS paint job.  Didn't want to waste too much time if I have it all wrong.

[NickG]

I cannot remember if you can switch the U360 mode without resetting its power.  So I was thinking more along the lines of having it always on and in output mode, and switching the 0-5 signals off using a 4066 or the like inbetween the 360 and encoder, and a second 4066 for the buttons;   Enabling either as necessary by placing 5V on the necessary control lines of the 4066es via toggle switch/circuit or an output controller.  Here is a somewhat simpler way with just switching the switches grounds off, toggling the 5v for 4066 enable lines of XY signal throughput.


There are a few dual stick games for the emulator set you mention.  I think they used separate controllers and dual analog, but as you would be emulating on PC, you could just have two analog joys, and map one of them in as digital or do the microswitches add-in, and set the rest up in static controller configs.  'just saying..


EDIT:  my picture is bad on the switch part,   

[NickG]

I forget the name of the switch I think it is dpdt, you would common the center contacts, put encoder ground and micros ground on one side, 5v and the enable lines on the other.  like:


UDLRGROUND -----*    *   *-------4066 ena
                               |
ENC common----- *    *   *-------5V
 

[Aberran]

what is the box that says switches on it and how do you force output when not in digital encoding ...


almost feel like starting a new thread if anyone has modded some analog gamepads or flightsticks to look more arcade like if not feel that way as well because if you got pots they are a lot easier to make digital like and put that on an on off system.  The Hall Effect stuff and especially the built in encoder on the U360 just seems to get in the way in my opinion.

OK NEVERMIND ALL THIS I GOT A SOLUTION IN A MODULAR DESIGN ...
I feel silly wanting to shoehorn this now that I think about it.  I want some games that are on consoles emulators to play well with an arcade setup. But on these analog is used mostly for movement and the dpad is menus at most ... I got a broken gamepad with a really circular dpad almost looks like an arcade button from far away and some small tact switches a little hotglue and plexiglass i could have it appear to be a thumb button.  But in actuality it would be my menu scrolling button.  It would look a little frankenish but its a far cry easier than all this we have been discussing and it shouldn't look that bad and most the time I plan to have a panel with a purely digital 8 way stick anyways on the cp.  Also I plan to just run the dpad into the u360 input style 4 switches should work.  And if a game requires one controller those inputs should be able to be remixed in ppjoyjoy unlike actual hatswitches which take additional clunky workarounds.  Its not ideal but its functional. 

 

thank you all the same
Aberran