Wiring 2 spinners to an I-PAC (not an Opti-Pac)

[LOKIOLR]

Basically what I'm doing is making 2 turntable for beatmania on my arcade cabinet. The tables will be hooked up to the spinners. But I don't want it to be analog. I basically need to know if it's possible to wire it so when the spinner turns one direction or the other it sends button presses like a push button. I would assume it's possible but I don't want to get it wrong.

Oh yeah I'll post pics of my cabinet later. It's being built to support almost every BEMANI game.

[tmasman]

wow...
This is an interesting idea...
hm...

I'm not sure that you could get away with something that spins as smoothly as an analog spinner... The only thing that I'm picturing is like the image below...

I guess if you put a pretty heavy flywheel on it then it might allow you to give it a good spin.

Basically you'd replace the encoder wheel of a spinner with a pointy toothed gear (or maybe you could get it to work with an open encoder wheel...)...

Then you'd have an actuator that fits between the teeth & is nudged either way when it is spun... The actuator would have a switch on either side of it to catch the spinning in either direction.

Just an idea...

[LOKIOLR]

Well that may work. All I'm really going to do is just taking 2 arkanoid spinners, remove the knobs and replace them with the turntables. It'd be like this picture...



but instead of hooking up to the beatmania 5 key controller it would be attached to the spinner instead.

Basically what I want to know is how I would wire X1 and X2 of an optical board to an I-PAC so that it would just treat them as button presses.

[tmasman]

um.. yeah...
It's not going to be that simple...
You (some one) might be able to work up a circuit to grab the analog signal & output a repeating digital signal, but it ain't gonna be easy...

Sorry...
It's not just a simple Plug-n-play solution...

[SirPoonga]

how did the real beatmania controller work?

You have a beatmania sim?

[LOKIOLR]

The real beatmania controller had two optical sensors much like a spinner. Then those went into the controller chip. The design I was going to work off of just simply has the turntable attached to a rod which hooks into the 5 key controller like the picture above.

I'm a bit of a NOOB when it comes to how analog buttons work. I figured that if an optical sensor produced any sort of voltage via the X1 and X2 those would be easy to wire as push buttons. Oh well I will experiment I guess.

For beatmania I am using Bemaniadx (SIM) and Beatmania running through MAME (DJMAIN).

[SirPoonga]

Do the sims support mouse as input so you don;t have to do something crazy like this?

Not sure if the djmain used mouse input or not.  If I remember it didn't.  Di the actual beatmania controller continuously spin all the way around?

[LOKIOLR]

Yeah it only was keyboard/joystick. The turntable goes all the way around. It has teeth like a spinner but they face down instead of out sideways. I know I could use a simple mouse2key or some program like that to emulate keypresses as well, but the thing is that I'm making all my cp's compatable with MAME and so they can out put to my console systems. It's elaborate but is working so far. The only hangup I have is these damn turntables.

[paigeoliver]

Have you ever seen the way a leaf switch joystick works?

Good.

Get a leaf switch. Install it just under the Arkanoid encoder wheel.

Somehow affix to the bottom of the encoder wheel a series of ridges that will activate the leaf switch while spinning.

That will make the switch go on/off/on/off during slow spins, or just stay pegged on during fast ones.

Or, if the switch needs to stay on during the entire spin time, then instead design your turntable so it presses downwards to activate a switch. Make it super sensitive so that it activates any time you touch it.

Also, I totally wouldn't waste any Arkanoid spinners on this. Not when you can get decent turntables at goodwill that are already quite capable of spinning all on their own.

[u_rebelscum]

um.. yeah...
It's not going to be that simple...
You (some one) might be able to work up a circuit to grab the analog signal & output a repeating digital signal, but it ain't gonna be easy...

Sorry...
It's not just a simple Plug-n-play solution...

First off, I'm not good at designing circuits.  With that in mind...

The output from an optical sensor used in arcade spinners and trackballs is a two bit signal per axis (ie: not very "analog").  The optipac (and PC mice circuits) translate this 2 bit signal input a more analog signal which would be hard to translate, but if you take the 2 bit signal directly from the optical PCB, it a pretty simple translation to left/right.

2 bit = 4 possible states; spinning in one direction would give: 00, 10, 11, 01 (which then goes back to 00).  Depending on the spacing of the sensors and the teeth on the wheel, the direction of above can be either clockwise or counterclockwise, but that doesn't matter with the ipac, since you can reprogram it to switch outputs.

The circuit would be something like this:

Code: [Select]

if (oldstate == 00)
  if (newstate == 10) close "A"
  else if (newstate == 01) close "B"
if (oldstate == 10)
  if (newstate == 11) close "A"
  else if (newstate == 00) close "B"
if (oldstate == 11)
  if (newstate == 01) close "A"
  else if (newstate == 10) close "B"
if (oldstate == 01)
  if (newstate == 00) close "A"
  else if (newstate == 11) close "B"
"A" being wired to ipac button a
"B" wired to ipac button b

What would that take, 8 NAND gates?  16?  What ever it is, it shouldn't be too hard.

[LOKIOLR]

Ok that makes sense. I think I could wire something. I don't really know much about electronics but I think I may be able to get this to work.

Any help will be apreciated. My brain feels like it's going to explode.

[planetjay]

Basically what I'm doing is making 2 turntable for beatmania on my arcade cabinet. The tables will be hooked up to the spinners. But I don't want it to be analog. I basically need to know if it's possible to wire it so when the spinner turns one direction or the other it sends button presses like a push button. I would assume it's possible but I don't want to get it wrong.

Oh yeah I'll post pics of my cabinet later. It's being built to support almost every BEMANI game.

So what you want to do is get an Atari 2600 trakball from Wico off eBay and connect the optics from your spinners to where the optics for the trakball connect. Then use the up/down and right/left for your 2 directions. you'll connect ground to the IPAC gnd and the 5v goes to wherever you have 5v.

Oh. Make sure you send me the left over trakball parts.  

[SirPoonga]

Oh yeah, the 2600 tball isn't like other tballs  Hacking that should work.

[JustMichael]

LOKIOLR, spinners (such as Oscar's) are not analog.  They are digital.  They can tell which way and how far the spinner has turned.  I just don't understand the want for button presses when a spinner can do exactly what you want already.

[hooded_paladin]

LOKIOLR, spinners (such as Oscar's) are not analog.  They are digital.  They can tell which way and how far the spinner has turned.  I just don't understand the want for button presses when a spinner can do exactly what you want already.

you really don't know what you're talking about.  (Or at least didn't say it right)
When people talk about analog vs digital FOR ARCADE CONTROLS, they're talking about whether it has different speeds or not.  Even if the spinners transmit information digitally, they are not called digital by us because you can spin them fast or slow.
And I'm guessing you don't know beatmania.  period.

Now, LOKIOLR,
there are several plausible implementations I see, some have been done and some have not.

you could attach the turntables to mouse axes like you say, and then either program a simulator to use that or a program to turn mouse movements into keys so you can use it with a simulator.

you could, as is shown on the website you got that graphic from, get a cheap playstation beatmania 5-key controller, make a new controller box and a turntable to attach to the original one, and 7 pushbuttons.

you could also buy an official playstation iidx controller.  Or an ASC (arcade style controller) which is AS GOOD AS IT GETS.  They look like the ones on the arcade machine and will cost you almost $600 with shipping.  You will only find them at japanese auction sites as they are no longer made (please please please make another batch konami)  They are still manufacturing official controllers, which are VERY tolerable, while will cost $120 with shipping from a shop in Japan, or ebay or whatnot.

My original idea is this:  if you attach the turntable to an electric motor, it will generate electricity when you spin it.  You could connect this to some relays and connect those to a playstation controller to turn this current into a digital signal, but I don't think anyone would like the clacking of those relays.  You could also make some sort of circuit, like they have in the playstation controllers, but that'd be hard.

(The circuit in the playstation controllers functions like this:  when you spin the turntable in one direction, that direction will stay "pressed" for a second or so to not allow you to make fast repeated 'scratches' in one direction.  As soon as you spin the other way, that way is pressed (and held) but the first way isn't, so that you can wiggle it back and forth as fast as necessary.)

Getting beatmania in the US is hard.  I'm a junior in high school, so I have little chance for a job for a long time and I'M ADDICTED TO BEATMANIA NOW.  I need to save like $400 for a PS2, mod, beatmania and controller.  Importing games raises the price a ton.

I'd love to see your BEMANI cabinet, because that's exactly what I want to make (computer station in the general shape of a DDR or beatmania iidx machine, with DDR pads on the floor that can be covered with something so you can stand / have a chair on it and use it for BEMANI or a computer station.

Keep in mind that, although 5-key beatmania is now emulated, beatmania simulation SUCKS.  DDR simulation is good because DDR is so technically simple, but IIDX has detailed movies, keysounds, and a funky controller that no one has done right yet.  Good luck.

[LOKIOLR]

I appreciate all the help you guys. I decided to go with hacking a 2600 trackball. That should be the easiest method for what I am doing.

[u_rebelscum]

JustMichael,

LOKIOLR, spinners (such as Oscar's) are not analog.  They are digital.  They can tell which way and how far the spinner has turned.  

Is this a summary of my post, above?

If so, you should note that you're combining what the oscar optical board does (2 bit "digital", a little which way) with what the mouse/optipac board does (how far in what direction).

I just don't understand the want for button presses when a spinner can do exactly what you want already.

The program he wants to run does not read mouse inputs.

[Lilwolf]

I've never played beat mania (just a turn table and some buttons right?  DDR without the feet?).

Why not hack in a real record player?  They are going for a total of 2 dollars at 2nd hard stores.

And you never turn it all the way around right?...

Then how about something like this?

The point 1 and point 2 are attached to the underside of the turntable.  The ground bar is bendable so you expect to touch one of the points (1 or 2) right away... but you can move it for some distance before its at its end...

Anyway, seems like a good simple solution.. If you can find the right bendy ground bar

[hooded_paladin]

sorry LilWolf, but play some beatmania or beatmania iidx and get back to us...

you really CAN turn it all the way around.  In game, the turntable will make a sound when you turn it one way - but a series of clicks, as people are suggesting with all the micro/leaf switch + ridges ideas, would make the game register multiple times for one spin. Plus, you lose all left/right functionality, as it would only have one switch.

Plus, you don't want much physical resistance or distance required as you hardly flick at all when you're playing hard.

Both the arcade and the home controller use some sort of system (software for the arcade, some sort of capacitor circuit (my guess) in the home controller) to prevent you from issuing a series of 'scratches' in one direction quickly (you must alternate)

Plus, in the arcade version, you have the added advantage of varying your speed when you scroll through the song list.  This doesn't happen with the home controller because it's only a digital signal.

And using a turntable wouldn't really help, because 1. you want the same size as the arcade and 2. you wouldn't use anything but the plate.

[grafixmonkey]

hate to butt in late, but it sounds like if you made a spinner or trackball hit a key every time a code wheel notch passes its sensor, every time you turn the thing you'll get one scratch that hits great and twenty others that miss...   it'll rapid-fire that key.  Lilwolf's turntable looks like it would do the job with an Ipac - a disc that springs back to center, and can be twisted ten or twenty degrees in either direction to cause a button press.  You might be able to hook something mechanical up to a 2-way joystick too, if you got the right pipe parts from the hardware store you could turn the joystick sideways and fix the stick to a turntable.

There's also a way to clean up the rapid pressing of a button from the codewheel.  You could build a circuit using logic chips that would send a button press through the Ipac whenever the spinner/trackball wheel started turning from rest, and whenever it changes direction.

On my cab though, just tapping a joystick in one direction feels great as a scratch key.  Of course, this is all assuming you're using some PC program that emulates Beatmania, because I don't know what the actual arcade machine used for its turntables.  All the PC beatmania programs I've seen use key presses, but I've heard of being able to scratch with the mouse in some of them too.

[RedSquirrel]

could i remove a spinner from say, an old pong/bintone machine and use it in my cab?

[grafixmonkey]

I dunno if Pong/Bintone is a classic or a rare cab...   if it is, you might not wanna tear it up.  PaigeOliver could tell you.  I think you can get optical boards from Happ, and making your own spinner would be the best option in this case, since you wouldn't want it to spin freely (you'd want some resistance).  The plain ol' hardware parts I've gotten from Lowe's have been easy to attach, and had good properties for spinner-making.

[RedSquirrel]

I dunno if Pong/Bintone is a classic or a rare cab...   if it is, you might not wanna tear it up.  PaigeOliver could tell you.  I think you can get optical boards from Happ, and making your own spinner would be the best option in this case, since you wouldn't want it to spin freely (you'd want some resistance).  The plain ol' hardware parts I've gotten from Lowe's have been easy to attach, and had good properties for spinner-making.

its one of those little "consoles" that you plug in your tv and play bat and ball and stuff. the controller though you can spin it left and right to move the paddle on screen.

[grafixmonkey]

oh, ok I gotcha.  So the paddles on the pong thing, do they move a certain distance left and right and stop, or do they spin freely?  If they don't spin freely, they're probably pots, which would be difficult to make a beatmania scratcher out of.

[RedSquirrel]

oh, ok I gotcha.  So the paddles on the pong thing, do they move a certain distance left and right and stop, or do they spin freely?  If they don't spin freely, they're probably pots, which would be difficult to make a beatmania scratcher out of.

yeah i think they do stop either way...

[LOKIOLR]

Now just wiring the spinners to optical boards then running a mouse2key program would work if I was just using mame. Problem is I'm not only using this for mame, but also for beatmania sims. Plus my cabinet has swappable outputs as well, meaning not only can I run PC games with all my arcade controls, but they also can run console games as well. So I need then to be all digital to be compatable. Anyways I just bought a 2600 trackball to hack apart so that should work.

[Chris]

What you really want is a "rotary encoder", like the wheel on a wheel mouse.  It'd be a lot cheaper than hacking up Arkanoid spinners!

Check http://www.mouser.com for rotary encoders in the Switches section.

--Chris