GroovyMAME and SCART TVs? (Answer = Yes! They work well together!)

[Paradroid]

a TV will never ever display correctly all the possible frequencies from 50 to 60 Hz!

Most likely you're right. However, convenience and price, are priorities (in that order) for me at the moment. I simply don't have the workspace (e.g. a shed or spare room) right now to get a real cab rigged up. Can you imagine what my girlfriend would say about an open WG monitor sitting in my living room? That black plastic at the back of the screen is important to me for the time being...

Point taken though.

[Paradroid]

Another test you can do:

monitor_specs0 15734-15734, 50.00-50.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448

This uses NTSC hfreq + PAL vfreq, see which standard is invoked (launch rtype)

I tried this spec and, again, the TV decides to go with the PAL geometry values. The image looks perfect in PAL mode (no skew and all lines present) but obviously it runs slow.

I gave my Grundig a good go on Friday night with R-Type and it doesn't distort the geometry or omit any lines. I found the Grundig on the side of the road and the chassis was pretty dirty inside and some of the parts are a little rusty (it must have been out in the rain). I cleaned it thoroughly using an air compressor and it works pretty well but sometimes turns itself off. Also, the convergence and image stability can't compete with the Loewes.

I guess it'll be a compromise for me until I take the plunge with a full blown cab or chance across a Grundig, Blaupunkt, etc. that happens to not have any of these issues. I'll soon be picking up a 32" Blaupunkt that I won on eBay for 0.99 cents last week. Fingers crossed for that one! Not looking forward to carrying it though... back breaker!

If you still have the patience, Calamity, I'd be great if you can help me fine tune the monitor spec lines that at least allow me to play these games on the CT1170 without image issues (even if they're the wrong speed).

Thanks again!

[Calamity]

Hi Paradroid,

Then it becomes clear that the Loewe is using Vfreq value rather than Hfreq to discriminate PAL/NTSC. I dare to suggest these lines as a possible compromise setup:

monitor_specs0 15625-15734, 50.00-52.40, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs1 15625-15734, 58.00-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 248, 448

The idea is that anything above 248 lines (just to provide a limit) will go through the first monitor_specs0 line, assigning the maximum Vfreq (52.4 Hz) for that range if original Vfreq value exceeds that limit.

On the other hand, anything below or equal to 248 lines will go through the second monitor_specs1, always forcing Vfreq above 58.00 Hz.

You can still run R-Type at 100% if you renounce to smooth scrolling: enable the -triplebuffer option just for the games you require it, and decide what you prefer.

[Paradroid]

You can still run R-Type at 100% if you renounce to smooth scrolling

Ooh! It's hard to go back once you see the difference, eh?

Thanks for the latest monitor specs. I think I understand the logic enough now to be able to experiment and refine the definitions.

Now that I've got a taste for GroovyMAME the search for the ultimate video setup continues but at least now we've got it to the stage that the majority of games I enjoy look amazing on my system.

Thanks again!

[Calamity]

Ooh! It's hard to go back once you see the difference, eh?

Indeed  

Going quickly through this topic, all I have to say is: for serious video gaming you need genuine arcade monitor not a SCART TV, period. I have done test with Advance MAME and ADVV and a TV will never ever display correctly all the possible frequencies from 50 to 60 Hz! TVs are not made for playing arcade video games they are made for displaying PAL and NTSC TV broadcast signals, plus there are options like DVD player inputs but still these are "locked" to 50 / 60 Hz. Noone has designed a TV with 55 Hz for R-Type in mind.. Do you get it now? Go grab the Wells Gardner tri-sync monitor or similar if you are really serious about 100% CRT videogaming display.

Yeah I get it my friend.

However, it's not true that no TV can display all frequencies from 50-60 Hz. I'm possitive that at least some Sony Trinitrons can, as we've tested them. My guess is that the best generation of scart TVs to look for is the one right before the chasis became digital. Unfortunately this is not the sort of feauture you'll expect to see advertised by the manufacturers.

[lettuce]

What sort of time period are we looking at for when digital chasis started to appear?

[Paradroid]

Noone has designed a TV with 55 Hz for R-Type in mind.. Do you get it now?

While I'm sure TV manufacturers didn't have our hobby in mind when drawing up their designs, it seems that just because something was designed for one purpose doesn't necessarily mean that it won't suit another...

My persistence has paid off! I scored a Siemens FS 343 V6 on the weekend and guess what? I'm playing R-Type with a complete picture and very good geometry. All with beautiful GroovyMAME smooth scrolling!

It's not quite MAME/SCART nirvana as the geometry and overscan settings that I've tweaked for use with the M72 games doesn't suit CPS2 but I'm just thrilled to finally have a unit that's at least capable of displaying the Irem games correctly.

Sorry for the poor photos (I still don't know the best way to capture TV images) but I couldn't resist including some visual evidence!

[Paradroid]

As an aside, the Service Menu for the Siemens looks suspiciously (i.e. exactly) like the Service Menu for my Grundig. Anyone know what the connection is there?

[Calamity]

Congratulations man, those pics look superb!

You'll need to correct the vertical amplitude for sure when switching from 224 lines to 256, but that's the same with arcade monitors. However it should be possible to get a nearly universal horizontal amplitude adjustment (impossible to get it perfect specially with low resolutions as we work with blocks of 8 pixels width). If that's not possible then maybe this TV is still doing some stuff internally.

[Paradroid]

Congratulations man, those pics look superb!

Thanks! I'm pretty happy with the result after all this experimentation.

You'll need to correct the vertical amplitude for sure when switching from 224 lines to 256, but that's the same with arcade monitors.

Really?! Good to know! That's not an issue specific to this set then. Nothing to worry about.

However it should be possible to get a nearly universal horizontal amplitude adjustment

Yep. The horizontal looks pretty damn good! When going between M72/M81 and CPS, everything stays as it should except that there's a black band at the bottom of the screen.

Thanks again for your help! I'm getting close now.

[Calamity]

Yep. The horizontal looks pretty damn good! When going between M72/M81 and CPS, everything stays as it should except that there's a black band at the bottom of the screen

Not sure if I get it... there should be two huge black bands at the top and the bottom a CPS game if you adjust your TV so that a M72 game fits the screen...

[Paradroid]

Yep, that's basically what I'm seeing. Although, it seems the band at the bottom is larger than the one at the top. I've included some better shots as a reference (and also to further show off my AUD $25 purchase). Siemens, people, Siemens!

[Calamity]

Try increasing the vertical back porch by steps of 0.064 (one line), that should push the picture down.

(sorry I edited your post by accident, this happens to me to me all the time lately  )

[lettuce]

That looks flipping fantastic Paradroid, so is that a CRT TV or a monitor??

[Paradroid]

It's a Siemens FS 343 television. Most definitely a CRT!

A quick Google search reveals that there's a connection between Grundig, Siemens and Blaupunkt. Looks like they share a lot of the same chassis internals. These 3 brands are pretty hard to come by in my part of the world (Australia), especially in 4:3 format (the widescreen Grundigs are actually more plentiful) but I imagine they're much more common in certain parts of Europe. The Loewes are far more common here and I think that has to do with the strong marketing campaign they had through the '90s. Believe it or not, the Loewes produce an even better image but, obviously, they're far less compatible with a wide range of resolutions and refresh rates.

[Paradroid]

Try increasing the vertical back porch by steps of 0.064 (one line), that should push the picture down.

Cool! I'll try that.

Worst case is that I'll have to change both the vertical amp and shift when switching between systems. However, that's pretty easy to do on this unit.

[lettuce]

It's a Siemens FS 343 television. Most definitely a CRT!

A quick Google search reveals that there's a connection between Grundig, Siemens and Blaupunkt. Looks like they share a lot of the same chassis internals. These 3 brands are pretty hard to come by in my part of the world (Australia), especially in 4:3 format (the widescreen Grundigs are actually more plentiful) but I imagine they're much more common in certain parts of Europe.

Those 3 TV manufacturers cant really be found in the UK for CRT TVs

[Paradroid]

Those 3 TV manufacturers cant really be found in the UK for CRT TVs

Really? That surprises me... Do the CRT TVs in the UK have SCART ports as standard? In Australia, SCART equipped TVs are definitely in the minority. I'd guess maybe 20:1 or 30:1. Most TVs have RCA composite, some have S-Video and then some of the more modern ones have component for DVDs (but mostly only widescreen models).

I'd love to get my hands on a Sony with a SCART port. Honestly, I would see at least one Sony CRT on the side of the road everyday here. However, I've only seen two 4:3 Sonys with SCART ports. One I tried (it didn't work) and the other was beyond repair so I left it. eBay is tough too because nobody knows what a SCART port is and, as a result, they don't mention it in their listing.

Save the following search on ebay.co.uk and see what comes up?

(beko,blaupunkt,grundig,loewe,siemens,thomson) (television,tv,monitor) -(lcd,led,plasma)

[lettuce]

Yeah Scart was standard here in the UK, from about 1991 onwards 99.9% of TVs had Scart sockets on, even the latest LCD screens still have Scart sockets on them here in the UK. Main CRT manufacturers in the UK were, Sony, Panasonic, Philips, JVC, Toshiba, Bush, Samsung. I was actually looking at a 26" Sony Triniton CRT on eBay but it ended today without me noticing with no bids on (99p starting price)

It always supirses me how in the US and Austrilia that people just dump TV's by the road side...we never get that sort of thing here in the UK

[Calamity]

It always supirses me how in the US and Austrilia that people just dump TV's by the road side...we never get that sort of thing here in the UK

Yeah I've been thinking the same thing reading Paradroid's posts, it seems much like picking mushroom over there

[Paradroid]

Yeah I've been thinking the same thing reading Paradroid's posts, it seems much like picking mushroom over there

MWAHAHA! So funny that you said that: our German friends always lament the lack of wild mushrooms in Australia. Another friend who owned a restaurant used to travel a couple hours to a pine forest and pick Pine mushrooms and sell them for AUD $150 per kilo to fancy restaurants.

In all seriousness, it's pretty crazy here in respects to hard rubbish. About a month ago I spent an hour cruising the streets of a wealthy suburb in my city. Honestly, I would have seen over 1 hundred TVs in that time alone. Nobody wants a CRT so they just get tossed to the curb. It kills me because they're out in the weather getting ruined instead of being advertised on eBay or given to charity.

On that particular run I went past 3 Grundig Elegance widescreens, 1 Loewe Aconda and 1 old school Phillips with a SCART port. I filled the car with a Loewe Contur (it ended up not working) and a Loewe VCR. In the last 6 months I've collected working Grundigs, Blaupunkts, Toshibas and full Loewe range (Xelos, Contur, Calida and Cantus). Some have had issues soI've recycled them, some I've given to thrift stores and friends and others I've kept.

I guess you could conclude that Aussies are pretty wasteful with their old electronics. And, if you saw the streets during these times, you'd think we're pretty messy too. I'll take some photos next time I go on a rubbish run and you guys can see for yourselves…

P.S. The situation in Canada appears the same: http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2011/09/analog-tv-death-toll.html

[lettuce]

Thats just crazy. Thing is these old CTR sets will probably be well sort after in say 5 years time, when people catch on to the fact that old retro consoles look like shite on new modern LCD screens!!

[Calamity]

At some point, humanity will regret having killed CRT technology, that's a fact.

[Paradroid]

My guess is that the best generation of scart TVs to look for is the one right before the chasis became digital. Unfortunately this is not the sort of feauture you'll expect to see advertised by the manufacturers.

Guess what? The 2 Blaupunkts I picked up this week appear to be analogue! There is an OSD for the audio and channels but none of this stuff shows when you're running RGB through the AV input. Also, the service mode is extremely basic: just a few options for the OSD (position and language). All the other image controls (size, height, trapezium, etc.) are set through a series of internal trim pots lined up at the back! I'm really surprised because they're very modern looking TVs on the outside. On the inside, there are far more analog components than the Loewes and Grundigs I've looked inside.

Now, as for the image, it's incredible! Sharp, vibrant and completely free from the artifacts I've seen in some digital TVs. Also, the image doesn't seem to distort (in terms of image shape) when I adjust the vertical amplitude. This is a problem that all digital chassis I've tried have had.

Pretty cool!

Too bad the sound is so tinny… but some external speakers will fix that.

So, for future reference, the model numbers I've tried are:

Blaupunkt IS 70-33 VTN
Blaupunkt IS 70-33 VT
Blaupunkt IS 63-33 VT

They all cope perfectly with the range of resolutions and vertical refresh rates I've tested so far.

[lettuce]

Looks like you've scored a perfect display solution then!? So even CRT TVs had digital chassis in later life? I'm try to weight up the props and cons of getting an older type CRT or newer, older will the picture be to too soft now, and newer will it hava a digital chassis are bork what we are trying to achieve here.

Over in the UK CRT sets had black cases for years and then around 1998 time all TVs started coming out with silver cases, not sure if this is the same in other countries or even why the decided to change....maybe the manufactures thought silver fits in better with modern (at the time) living rooms/lounges, obviously now a days LCD's have all black cases again.

So that's the way I determine how old a CRT set roughly is, I'm still trying to score a Sony Triniton near to me via eBay, I have seen one but its 29" big and think that will be to big and plus would weigh a ton

[Calamity]

Great work Paradroid.

The problem with scart TVs has been that most people just post on their success outputting a 15 KHz signal and think that's all the story about it. So the really important info here: if a TV set is capable of doing the whole range 50-61 Hz, is so scarce.

Lettuce, here is a pic of Recap's Sony Trinitron TV which we know to happily support the whole range, it seems to confirm your black-case theory:
http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/viewtopic.php?pid=4169#p4169

[Paradroid]

Looks like you've scored a perfect display solution then!?

Well, there's always things that you wish were better but it's pretty damn good.

Lettuce, I tend to agree with you re: silver TVs. If it's silver, chances are it's going to have a digital chassis and built image processing. That's a bad start... Plus, they don't look as good.

Calamity, I'm more than happy to document my findings so others can benefit in the future. After this experience I think we could come up with a check list or a series of tests that can be used to determine whether a SCART TV is going to display the full range modes. And you're right about people's first impressions! I thought I had the perfect monitor until I tried GroovyMAME and discovered the deficiencies in my Loewe TVs.

[lettuce]

I need to really start putting my 2 current CRT TVs through their paces, atm the sharp is kill the bush just a shame the sharp is mono and not stereo . Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are??

[Calamity]

Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are??

It's very easy indeed. Use the ReslList.txt file attached, disable ListFromXML in VMMaker.ini and run VMMaker to create the modelines, it should produce something like this:

Modeline "320x240_50 15.65KHz 50.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 268 271 313 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_51 15.65KHz 50.99Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 265 268 307 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_52 15.65KHz 52.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 262 265 301 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_53 15.65KHz 53.06Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 259 262 295 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_54 15.65KHz 53.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 256 259 290 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_55 15.61KHz 54.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 253 255 284 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_56 15.61KHz 55.96Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 251 253 279 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_57 15.61KHz 56.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 248 250 274 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_58 15.65KHz 57.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 246 249 270 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_59 15.65KHz 59.07Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 244 247 265 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_60 15.65KHz 59.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 242 245 261 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_61 15.83KHz 60.87Hz" 6.720 320 336 368 424 240 241 244 260 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "640x480_60 15.62KHz 59.95Hz" 12.980 640 664 728 832 480 482 487 521 interlace -hsync -vsync

[Paradroid]

Oh, very cool Calamity! That will make testing quite straight forward. I'm away for Christmas but I'll definitely give that a spin when I'm home again. Thanks!

[lettuce]

So what's the quickest/easiest way to test all these modes out on our CRT's?

Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are??

It's very easy indeed. Use the ReslList.txt file attached, disable ListFromXML in VMMaker.ini and run VMMaker to create the modelines, it should produce something like this:

Modeline "320x240_50 15.65KHz 50.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 268 271 313 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_51 15.65KHz 50.99Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 265 268 307 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_52 15.65KHz 52.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 262 265 301 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_53 15.65KHz 53.06Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 259 262 295 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_54 15.65KHz 53.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 256 259 290 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_55 15.61KHz 54.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 253 255 284 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_56 15.61KHz 55.96Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 251 253 279 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_57 15.61KHz 56.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 248 250 274 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_58 15.65KHz 57.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 246 249 270 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_59 15.65KHz 59.07Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 244 247 265 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_60 15.65KHz 59.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 242 245 261 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_61 15.83KHz 60.87Hz" 6.720 320 336 368 424 240 241 244 260 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "640x480_60 15.62KHz 59.95Hz" 12.980 640 664 728 832 480 482 487 521 interlace -hsync -vsync

[Calamity]

So what's the quickest/easiest way to test all these modes out on our CRT's?

Once you've created them use Arcade_OSD to run through the list.

[lettuce]

So what's the quickest/easiest way to test all these modes out on our CRT's?

Once you've created them use Arcade_OSD to run through the list.

Great i knew you were going to say that.....i cant use Arcade_OSD it always crashes on me . Any chance of a fix for this?

[Calamity]

Great i knew you were going to say that.....i cant use Arcade_OSD it always crashes on me . Any chance of a fix for this?

Oh I forgot that... You can use Quickres or Winmodelines as an alternative. I'm working in a new version, hopefully won't crash...

[Paradroid]

Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are?

I'm back from holidays and ready to start narrowing down my SCART TV collection.

Before I get rid of anything, I to compile something of a "report card" for each unit. Calamity's list of refresh rates (at 320 x 240) will be a good start but, from my experience with the Loewes, testing the number of lines that a TV can show is also important. I wonder if between us we can come up with a comprehensive set of tests that take everything into account: refresh rates, vertical lines, frequency range, artifacts (from digital chassis), etc. I know some people are also interested to know about other things like power return.

I also run the Nokia Monitor Test suite on my TVs but this is more about performance rather than capabilities. I've seen the same models show variations (e.g. some have better convergence than others) but for Groovy MAME users, I guess it's most important to know whether a TV will be able to simply show the games at there proper resolution and refresh rate without issues.

Any thoughts or suggestions most welcome!

[Calamity]

Yes, we need to make some sort of test list of modelines that more or less covers all relevant values. I've been thinking about it, just need to figure out how to keep it simple but complete at the same time, I'll be posting something soon.

[Paradroid]

Excellent! Looking forward to it.

[Calamity]

Here is a possible method for testing TVs. Please post any suggestions on how to improve it.

The idea is to use Vfreq and Active_lines as the relevant values to test. This is because, according to Paradroid's tests, it's Vfreq the trigger factor used by some TVs to switch PAL/NTSC settings. So Hfreq would be the product of Vfreq & Active_lines combined, but not a value to test directly. I'd use a monitor_specs line like this:

monitor_specs_0 = "15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448"

... this will predefine the Hfreq range BTW. You can use higher Hfreq values (i.e., to get higher refresh rates for higher resolutions) but it's unlikely that the TV will deal with them.

For ReslList.txt, use a list like this:

Code: [Select]

## Desktop ##

 640 x 480 @ 30.000000 desktop

## Test ##

 320 x 240 @ 50.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 51.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 52.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 53.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 54.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 55.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 56.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 57.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 58.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 59.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 60.000000 test
 320 x 240 @ 61.000000 test

 320 x 248 @ 50.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 51.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 52.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 53.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 54.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 55.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 56.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 57.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 58.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 59.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 60.000000 test
 320 x 248 @ 61.000000 test

 320 x 256 @ 50.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 51.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 52.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 53.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 54.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 55.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 56.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 57.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 58.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 59.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 60.000000 test
 320 x 256 @ 61.000000 test

 320 x 264 @ 50.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 51.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 52.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 53.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 54.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 55.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 56.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 57.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 58.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 59.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 60.000000 test
 320 x 264 @ 61.000000 test

 320 x 272 @ 50.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 51.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 52.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 53.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 54.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 55.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 56.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 57.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 58.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 59.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 60.000000 test
 320 x 272 @ 61.000000 test

 320 x 280 @ 50.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 51.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 52.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 53.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 54.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 55.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 56.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 57.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 58.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 59.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 60.000000 test
 320 x 280 @ 61.000000 test

 320 x 288 @ 50.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 51.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 52.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 53.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 54.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 55.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 56.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 57.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 58.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 59.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 60.000000 test
 320 x 288 @ 61.000000 test

Then, testing the resolutions by rows, you could come up with a table like this.

Code: [Select]

Hantarex MTC 9110

    50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61
240  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x
248  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x
256  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  -
264  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  -  -  -
272  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -
280  x  x  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  -  -
288  x  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

I've used the H9110 settings for this table, to use it as a reference.

[Paradroid]

Ah! Nice! I like the idea of showing the results as a table in the way you've suggested. Based on what I've observed so far, a comprehensive report card would also have to include some notes about the other particulars of the TV (e.g. the Loewes having separate geometry values for PAL/NTSC, the Siemens only having one set of values, etc.). No doubt there be some evolution and refinement in order to develop a fail proof test procedure. I'm happy to dive in and see what comes of it.

With the number of Active_lines, is 8 the smallest increment between modes? I'm still vague on the theory of it all so please excuse my ignorance for a little longer. I'm pretty sure the Loewes won't even do 240 lines in NTSC mode. I'll have to double check but I seem to recall lines missing at the top and bottom of the screen. I always assumed I needed to adjust the height to get them showing but I think that was a wrong assumption. I know 224 lines is fine because the CPS and Neo Geo games work great. Is it worth starting the test with less lines than 240? Makes more work, I guess.

I'm off to the beach tomorrow (31°C here in .au) so I won't be able to get onto this immediately but I'm definitely keen to see what we can make of it.

Thanks for kick starting this!

[Calamity]

There's no need to increment the number of lines by multiples of 8, it's just for practical purposes and because most arcade resolutions are aligned to those 8 multiples, but nothing prevents us from using values such as 241 or 250.

The horizontal case is different because video cards internal registers traditionally work with 'characters' instead of pixels. These characters are blocks of 8 pixels wide.

We can add the 224 and 232 rows, I just started with the 240 height because it's the NTSC standard so I believed every TV should be capable of showing at least 240 progressive lines.

So for the Loewes, you would probably get a table like this (notice the gap):

Code: [Select]

    50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61
224  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  x  x  x  x
232  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  x  x  x  x
240  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  x  x  x  x
248  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
256  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
264  x  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
272  x  x  x  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
280  x  x  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
288  x  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

BTW, I don't know if this is physically possible at all but I'd love to see a picture of your 14 CRT TVs collection all together before you get rid of them, it might become handy when my wife complains about my hobby.