CP layout & controls - appreciate feedback

[MNW]

Hi - first post here.

I have spent a few weeks reading the posts and am starting to get my thoughts together on my first project.  I am thinking about an Evolution inspired cabinet, and therefore a 2 person CP.  I am trying to keep the CP reasonably sized and would like to limit extra controls, if possible.  A few questions about CP layout and controls:

1 - If I have Ultimarc 360s, is there any reason for a stand-alone 4-way stick?

2 - why would I need 6 or 7 buttons?  What am I missing if I keep it to 4 or 6 buttons?

3 - Is a spinner really necessary?  What games does a spinner open up for me that I can't play with a joystick or trackball?

4 - Is there a minimum width I can get away with?  I have seen layouts at 34 inches, but am hoping to go a little narrower without losing comfort.

Thanks!

[AlienInferno]

I can answer at least your first 2 questions.

1.)  I am/will be using U360's.  They play great in 4-way mode such as Pac-Man.  Those that use a dedicated 4-way stick usually use it to get a more authentic feel in my opinion.

2.)  The 6 button layout is for fighting games such as Street Fighter.  The 7 button layout lets you keep the 6 button fighter layout and adds a button to get the 4-button Neo Geo layout as well.

[VanillaGorilla]

I'll try the other 2...

I must be able to play Tempest, Omega Race, and Arkanoid. Spinner mandatory. It also lets you play the 360 degree driving games such as Pole Position, Turbo, etc. Its a nice way to interface with Hyperspin too, you can use the spinner to cycle thru the menu wheel.

You can get a lot of controls into 24-26 inches in width, which also lets you still move the cabinet thru most doors it may have to navigate in its lifetime. You could even go smaller, old arcade games had control panels 18-21 inches in width...gotta be creative, and only include what you will get the most use out of. Consider building swappable control panels in the future as an option for expansion. That kind of frees you up to not have to make a ridiculously large 'does-it-all' franken-panel.

[nitz]

I'll throw in my 2 cents.

2) 4 buttons should be fine if you don't play fighters. The only non-fighting games I can think of that used more than 4 buttons are Defender and Stargate. There are probably others, but I don't think there could be many popular non-fighting games that used more than 4.

3) You can sort of play some spinner games with buttons or a joystick - they will not play particularly well, but if you're a casual player willing to tweak the analog settings a bit and practice it could be good enough. When considering controls like trackballs and spinners, I think you really have to be into the games that used them to justify it unless money and CP space are no object. For example, I quite like Arkanoid, but it's the only spinner game I'm into. Since it's not my favorite game or anything, I can't really justify putting a spinner on the panel for it. I've taught myself to play it with buttons and it's not bad. Sure, it's not at all authentic and serious players would scoff, but I'll save some money and panel space.

You can get a lot of controls into 24-26 inches in width, which also lets you still move the cabinet thru most doors it may have to navigate in its lifetime.

+1

Even with a trackball, 36 inches is pretty wide for a 2 player panel. I don't think it would look bad, and it would be nice and roomy, but if you want this to be easier to move around and more compact, you can definitely go smaller.

[codefenix]

My two cents:

1 - If I have Ultimarc 360s, is there any reason for a stand-alone 4-way stick?

I've read many posts and articles stating that 4-way joysticks are required for 4-way games like Donkey Kong or PacMan, because those games don't comprehend diagonal inputs.  Therefore it is said when you attempt to move Mario up the ladder and you inadvertently trigger the right and up switches simultaneously, Mario responds by not moving at all.

However, I have two 8-way Ultimate Joysticks (the cheap ones) and I've not noticed this to be the case.  I have played many long sessions of Donkey Kong (it's one of my favorites) and have never suffered any unwanted stops when moving the stick diagonally.

So in my case, there was certainly no reason for a stand alone 4-way stick.  And I'm glad.  The less clutter on the panel, the better.

2 - why would I need 6 or 7 buttons?  What am I missing if I keep it to 4 or 6 buttons?

Fighting games.  Mainly the Capcom titles and the Mortal Kombats.  Not much apart from that other than Defender, as nitz pointed out.

If you plan on ever using emulators other than MAME, you'll want to have at least six or even eight buttons.  Think about the SNES controller with L+R and start/select buttons in addition to X,A,B,Y.

3 - Is a spinner really necessary?  What games does a spinner open up for me that I can't play with a joystick or trackball?

Purists will want to include the spinner.  Economists will not.

I can say that I enjoy Arkanoid and Tempest just fine using my trackball.  To me, it's not worth putting a spinner on the panel for only two games.  In all other regards (frontend navigation), everything a spinner can do a trackball handles nicely.

4 - Is there a minimum width I can get away with?  I have seen layouts at 34 inches, but am hoping to go a little narrower without losing comfort.

I have two joysticks, each with eight buttons, and a trackball in my panel.  My panel's width is about 24".  I think it's ample room, and my guests haven't complained of discomfort standing close to each other. 

34" seems excessive to me -- It's a control panel, not wings.

[MNW]

Thanks for the replies & the 4 cents!

This gives me some good info to try out a prototype or 2...

I think I am going to try:
2 u260s with 6 buttons each
spinner
trackball

34" seems excessive to me -- It's a control panel, not wings.

Glad to hear that the smaller CPs work well.  Most of the items I have seen on these boards seem to go go larger.  I think I will give 26" or 28" wide a try and see how it looks.

[markronz]

1)  Just to clarify something a little more regarding the 4 way joysticks.  It's sort of covered, but not 100% clear from the above posts.  But if you have U360s, then theres no need for a 4 way joystick.  THAT IS, unless you prefer an actual hardware restriction in how a true 4 way joystick moves.  The normal U360 as it comes does not restrict movement to 4ways mechanically.  It does restrict it to 4 way via software.    However, even if you are the type who prefers real mechanical restriction, Ultimarc does offer "front mount restrictor plates" which allow you to add that mechanical restriction feel if you desire.

2) As others have said, the 7th button is often used for NeoGeo games, because that always had a row of 4 buttons on all those games.  Note, you don't NEED a row of 4 for that.  You could just have the fourth button on the bottom row if you dont care about the authenticity for NeoGeo stuff.  I personally don't find that it makes Neo Geo games any harder to play if that 4th button isn't on the same row, but that's just me.

If I can give you one tip I learned from my first CP, just be wary of what you put above your trackball.   I have an Exit admin button and I placed it above my trackball.   As you can imagine, every time I play Golden Tee, I accidentally exit the game.  So be sure to make a test control panel, and actually use it to play the games you like first, before you build the real deal one.

[MNW]

markronz - thanks for the advice. 

1 - are the "Front Mount Restrictor Plates" easy to work with or do I need access from underneath the CP?

I am trying to design my CP to keep it not too big, but not too cluttered.  It is looking like the spinner might be above the track ball and I can see how that could get in teh way for Golden Tee.  I need to re-read some of these threads to get a bit more inspiration and will then post a layout for some "Constructive Criticism"

[amendonz]

2) As others have said, the 7th button is often used for NeoGeo games, because that always had a row of 4 buttons on all those games.  Note, you don't NEED a row of 4 for that.  You could just have the fourth button on the bottom row if you dont care about the authenticity for NeoGeo stuff.  I personally don't find that it makes Neo Geo games any harder to play if that 4th button isn't on the same row, but that's just me.

yeh, so

1 2 3
4 X X

that works ok, i prefer

2 3 4
1 X X

[markronz]

Well, I can't personally speak as to the ease of use of the restrictor plates as I do not have them myself yet.  However, it seems very easy.  I know that you do change up the restrictor from the top by hand.  No need to get access to the bottom of the CP to change this up.
See this thread here for more info on them, along with some pics and I think a review in there somewhere:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=109572.0

About your spinner placement above the trackball, thats your call.  I mean, since it's not going to have as much room as the real golden tee machines, you're not going to be able to do the full arm violent swing at the trackball like you might in a bar.  Chances are you are going to be doing more of a two thumb swing at the trackball.  Whether or not you will hit the spinner, I don't know.  You'll have to play with that and see if it works for you.   

Also, regarding control panels, you shoudl definitely check out the control panel database sticky thread.   You can learn a lot by looking at what others have done.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=59359.0
As much as you can learn from looking though, there is a lot of personal preference that goes into it.   So by all means read all you can, look at all the examples you can, but in the end build what fits your style, and what works for you.

[MNW]

Thanks for the thread on the restrictor plate.  That pretty much seals the deal for me on the u360.

[Necro]

1 - If I have Ultimarc 360s, is there any reason for a stand-alone 4-way stick?
2 - why would I need 6 or 7 buttons?  What am I missing if I keep it to 4 or 6 buttons?
3 - Is a spinner really necessary?  What games does a spinner open up for me that I can't play with a joystick or trackball?
4 - Is there a minimum width I can get away with?  I have seen layouts at 34 inches, but am hoping to go a little narrower without losing comfort.

Here's my opinion:
1- Nope.  Not unless you 'demand' the feel of 4 way restriction.  I'm very happy with mine in 4-way games and may end up selling the stick I got to do dedicated 4 way because of it. 
2- As noted - 6 is for fighters, 7 gives you the neogeo layout (which I discarded as necessary but now I realize is actually a pretty nice thing to have)
3- If you want to play spinner games it is.  Omega Race, arkanoid, some driving games (if you get a wheel attachment), etc.
4. My cab is 24" wide (the CP) + wood on each side of that.  I have multiple control panels, but a 2 person fighter layout (6 buttons, 7 buttons isn't really doable) is fine.