My Mame Cabinet Project (Cocktail Table Style)

[truepusk]

Straight to the point...

Layout?
I want a 4 player layout that actually allows you to use 4 players at once.  Most 4 player tables are actually 2 vertical and 2 player horizontal layout.  I want 4 players at once.  The cocktail mode works great (it splits a vertical screen in half) so my thought is 2 players on each long end.  One potential issue is that if I go with non-orthogonal control layouts, it will make the physical structure, which I will most likely be building from scratch, much more difficult (90 degree angles are always the easiest).

Another interesting concept I came up with is a typical pacman style cabinet with two moveable control setups.  They will be USB-plug in and I could either have different places to hang them off of, or have a post they sit on, or both.  Here are some of my concepts.




Control Style?
Any thoughts on how close the buttons should be to the joystick?  I need 8 buttons on each (6 might work, but 8 is best, just to be safe).  Think fighting games.  It seems that arcade cabinets general have the control right next to the buttons.

Additional Background Info
I have a 21" Sony Trinitron CRT that is going in here.  I have an Athlon 64 3200+ that is going in here.  I already have 4x ultimarc joy sticks.  I will probably use MaLa as a front end (Hyperspin is too much of a hog for this machine, although this machine seems to be able to play any MAME game I try at 100% speed).  Games I'm interested in include side scrolling action games (TMNT, Simpsons, Final Fight, Amazing Spider Man), fighting games (MK and SF2), NBA Jam, Gauntlet, and who knows what else!

[equlizer]

I personally like the 2nd picture idea because when you dont have friends over you can take them? off.  I would go without the stand and have some sort of hook system to hook it onto the side then plug in your usb.  that is a brilliant idea 

[Donkbaca]

Why do you need 8 buttons? Much less 8 buttons for players 3&4?  I don't think the screen is big enough to share with 4 players

[truepusk]

Why do you need 8 buttons? Much less 8 buttons for players 3&4?  I don't think the screen is big enough to share with 4 players

What do I gain by dropping down to 7 or 6 buttons?

I'll have to think about the screen and sharing. A friend has a 2 player w/ 19" cocktail that I thought was pleanty big enough to share even in split screen, but I'll want to revisit.

[compute]

How many games use 8 buttons on players 3 and 4?

[truepusk]

How many games use 8 buttons on players 3 and 4?

I don't have an answer to that.  There are a lot that use 6 in general, and I know there are a few that use 8.  One thing I lose (which may not matter much once I put together the final design) is the ability to set any of the 4 controls as 1 or 2 player for any game if I reduce the number of buttons on some.

The question remains, what do I gain by dropping down to 7 or 6 buttons?  Do I gain a smaller control area and thus more space/flexibility?  I'm assuming we aren't talking about the benefit of saving $4 to $8 on buttons.

I guess this brings up something else that I'm going to have to figure out.  My plan is to have recessed controls that reside under the table, just like a typical or classic cocktail table.  I'm not sure how much elbow room I need between controls if people are sitting side-by-side.  Also, it's possible that the space to the left and right of the controls will be open, but if it is blocked, I'm not sure how much additional space I need there, as well. 

As an aside, to help me answer some of these questions, I've been trying to find some arcades that have joystick/button consoles so I can do some 'research', but I haven't had much luck (Dave n Busters is all shooters and racing games here in Chicago, for example).  Tonight I'm going to hit up at least one bowling alley.

[Malenko]

How many games use 8 buttons on players 3 and 4?

I don't have an answer to that. 

I know!!!! NONE. (console games excluded)

most use 3, a few use 4.

Typical 4 player panels use 7 or 8 on P1 and 2 and 3 or 4 on 3 and 4.  Its not a matter of saving $4 on buttons, but not having a button you'll never use cluttering the panel. Its your game do what you want. These are just the opinions of people who have built cabs before.

[Hoopz]

How many games use 8 buttons on players 3 and 4?

I don't have an answer to that. 

I know!!!! NONE. (console games excluded)

most use 3, a few use 4.

Typical 4 player panels use 7 or 8 on P1 and 2 and 3 or 4 on 3 and 4.  Its not a matter of saving $4 on buttons, but not having a button you'll never use cluttering the panel. Its your game do what you want. These are just the opinions of people who have built cabs before.

Just a handful of D&D games used 4.  May not be worth it to add the 4th button for just a few games.  I can't see adding 8 for Players 3 and 4.   

[Donkbaca]

On a 21 inch, 4:3 screen, you are looking at 12.6 inches high by 16.8 inches wide, mounted vertically, that means that each side is going to be looking at a screen that is 12.6 inches wide by 8.4 inches high, give or take a few fractions of an inch.  That is a pretty small screen area to be sharing with a game designed to display 4 players.  Also, cocktails mount flat, so its hard to be comfortable and get a good viewing angle unless you are right on the end.   Lastly, the spacing of controls will make it cramped, even if its okay elbow room wise, you have to remember this is a sit-down cabinet, so you have to make sure there is enough space for people to sit in chairs comfortably.

I don't know any arcade games that use 8 buttons.

You don't need more than 4 buttons for players 3 and four, and you probably only need 3 for them

[truepusk]

So has anyone ever heard of a 4 player (at one time) Cocktail cabinet?  As I mentioned earlier, it seems like most 4 player cocktail cabinets are designed for either 2 opposite or 2 side by side but not 4 all at once.  I'd really like to know what the best options for this type of MAME are.

I could potentially consider doing 4 all along the long side, but that might be worse.  Donkbaca's concerns about the screen size definitely need to be looked into before I sink all the time and effort into this.

I appreciate all the help thus far!  I'll definitely keep updating my progress and I'm sure the questions I'm asking thus far are just the tip of the iceberg.

[Donkbaca]

As far as I know a 4 player cocktail has never been done, and for good reason, its hard to position 4 chairs around a small screen like that in a way that makes sense.

Full disclosure though; I think most 4 player cabs are a waste, as generally most people will rarely have 3 other people that will regularly play games.

[Hoopz]

Warlords

[Donkbaca]

Warlords +1, but that is sort of a special case...

[truepusk]

My Next Plans
1. I've decided I'm going to need to prototype it first (position bare wood controls around a monitor at the proposed cabinet spacing).  That means I'll finally have to make a decision about button colors.  I'm also making plans to visit my friend with a 19" 2 player cabinet (with way too few buttons....  we are talking like only 3!!! ;-) ) this weekend to think about this some more.

2. I'm also entertaining the idea of having an extra monitor output so I can hook it up to the HDTV on occasion.  I'll have to verify that my HDTV can handle a variety of resolutions first (not holding my breath)...

As an aside, I'm guessing that when I have a fair amount of people over and the mame is in play I'll often have at least 3 on it (I'd expect that to happen around half a dozen times a year).  I could see NBA Jam as a 3 to 4 player favorite, along with TMNT, Final Fight, etc... (whatever you call that genre).

[truepusk]

Thinking about grabbing these buttons.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120554574811

I'm thinking something like 8xBlue, Red, Purple, 4xPlayer buttons for 28 total (would cost me $56 including shipping).  I'm gonna do a bit of research before pulling the trigger.

[truepusk]

Thinking about grabbing these buttons.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120554574811

I'm thinking something like 8xBlue, Red, Purple, 4xPlayer buttons for 28 total (would cost me $56 including shipping).  I'm gonna do a bit of research before pulling the trigger.

After looking through your forum it looks like most people aren't too picky about buttons and it looks like this guy offers better prices (Bob):
http://www.homearcade.org/BBBB/parts.html#buttons

[truepusk]

It's been awhile since I've posted.  I have a few update posts to make.  First, the current color scheme and button layout:



I purchased the above buttons shown, plus 10 black buttons for cabinet administration from Bob Roberts for around $65 including shipping.  I think that's 46 buttons total?

[truepusk]

Second, I'm thinking about getting some of these:



http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=S5675-ND

I would get 4, one to plug into each of the four controllers.  They are all standard .1" header pins.  This is a surface mount part, but I can solder the wires into the surface mount end since they have holes.   Have you ever heard of anyone doing something like this before?  If so do you know what they would typically use?

[Nephasth]

Have you ever heard of anyone doing something like this before?  If so do you know what they would typically use?

I used Molex Micro-Fit connectors for my harnesses. Looks like they could serve your purpose as well, if you have or are willing to get a set of crimpers. You can check them out in the Two-Headed Beast thread, post #69 I think, and later posts for the same style connectors with more pins in each one.

[truepusk]

Have you ever heard of anyone doing something like this before?  If so do you know what they would typically use?

I used Molex Micro-Fit connectors for my harnesses. Looks like they could serve your purpose as well, if you have or are willing to get a set of crimpers. You can check them out in the Two-Headed Beast thread, post #69 I think, and later posts for the same style connectors with more pins in each one.

Thank you Nephasth.  I'll look into it.  In the meantime for prototyping I have some crappy .1" headers I can use, but I will have to solder wire onto pin, which is of course never a fun task.

[truepusk]

Third, I got some bad news in the middle of this week....

The AMD 64 3200+ w/ Radeon X800XL (AGP) that I was planning on using as my MAME computer appears to be dying .  That computer handled everything I needed except the Tekken series, which it was able to handle at 75% speed.

It looks like I can put together a much higher powered computer for under $200.  Here is my current build:

Prices shown include MIR.

• PSU - Corsair Builder 430 $20.  Might have to wait awhile to find that good of a deal - Newegg sells them for that price every couple of months. 
  -->PSU Option 2: SeaSonic S12II 520 Bronze 520W $60.  I'd rather pay $20 more for this than pay $40 for the Corsair Builder 430.
  -->PSU Option 3: I could reuse the Seasonic Super Tornado 300 W PSU, but I have 3 concerns.  It may not have the right GPU power connectors.  This computer was already damaged and it's possible the PSU was part of the problem.  It may not have enough power for this system.
  
• Motherboard - ASUS M4A87T AM3 AMD 870 SATA 6Gb/s ATX AMD Motherboard $50 - A NEW, UPDATED great deal that will probably expire before I can grab it, but I'm assuming I can find something comparable.  I'd like gigabit Ethernet.
  
• CPU - AMD Athlon II X2 250 Regor 3.0GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor ADX250OCGMBOX $60 - I'm be looking to hit the $60-$65 price range here.  This is the lowest X2 option and there are several upgrades going up to $70.  Not sure if it's worth it.
  
• Memory - Crucial Ballistix sport 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT25664BA160A $20 - I might jump on this deal right away.  My other option is to get 8GB and swap it with one of my other computers (both have G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBNQ. 
  
• GPU - Right now I'm planning on using an EVGA 9800 GT 512 MB that I just happen to have lying around.
  
• Case - Thermaltake V3 Black Edition VL80001W2Z Black SECC / Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case$40 right now, but often comes up on special for $30.  Leaning towards using my old case and then putting it in the cabinet after I get it up and running without a case.

Total ~$180.

Benefits of this new computer:
1. Getting to 100% speed on this one would be nice!).
2. Hyperspin might be an option.  It wouldn't come close to running on my old system.

Still not sure about XP or Windows7 for the OS.  It looks like XP is heavily recommended on arcade forums, but if this system can handle and Mame Windows7, I would prefer it - 1. full use of the 4MB of RAM 2. full use of the 64 bit processor architecture 3. Windows 7 is nice.  Really it doesn't matter - I'm not likely to be outside of the MAME interface once I get it up and running.  There are 64 bit MAME versions now, though, I believe.

One of my two build threads on this PC can be found here.

[truepusk]

Fourth... I got lumber.  6 x 8' 2x4, 1 x 6' 1x8.  I got tools, too.  Monitor is totally taken apart.  Here are pictures:

[truepusk]

Pulled the trigger on the computer parts. Prices shown include MIR.

• PSU - Corsair Builder 430 $27 after $20MIR. may not have enough power for this system.
  
• Motherboard - ASUS M4A87T AM3 AMD 870 SATA 6Gb/s ATX AMD Motherboard $50 (after $15 MIR) - This actually looks like a nicer motherboard than I need at a very good price.
  
• CPU - AMD Athlon II X2 265 Regor 3.3GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor ADX265OCGMBOX $66 - I decided on the 3.3GHz.  I suspect the MAME, like most games, will benefit more from the extra clock freq more so than a third core, especially on a MAME.  My price is $3 cheaper because I found the Athlon II X2 265 on Superbiiz
  
• Memory - Crucial Ballistix sport 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT25664BA160A $20 - I might jump on this deal right away.  My other option is to get 8GB and swap it with one of my other computers (both have G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBNQ. 
  
• GPU - Right now I'm planning on using an EVGA 9800 GT 512 MB that I just happen to have lying around.
  
• Case - No case, at least for now (mounting in the cabinet?)  Long term I would consider spending $30 on the good and affordible Thermaltake V3 Black Edition VL80001W2Z Black SECC / Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case, assuming I can find that frequent deal.
  
• HSF - I'll have the stock as an option, but probably will go with the 120mm Thermalright 120 XP I have left from my Athlon XP 3200+ (socket 939).  I have some quiet 120mm scyths as well.

Total ~$163 after MIR (no case, reused GPU, reused HDD, after $35 in MIR).

Still not sure about the OS. ;-P  Leaning towards Windows7 so I can use the memory, 64bit power, and cores to their full extent.