Joystick Mechanics

[Woodshop Flunky]

Okay... this is not another, "What's the best joystick?", thread.

However, I'm using a U360 and recently went to an arcade and played a variety of machines.  One of the ones I played was the Ms Pacman / Galaga anniversary machines.  The joystick on that machine felt GREAT!  So, I tried to analyze the thing just by feel (they wouldn't let me crack the thing open).

Compared with the U360...
1. The movement was much stiffer.  I have the stiffer spring for the U360, but it still wasn't this stiff.
2. The force to move the joystick was VERY consistant.  With the U360, I can feel some sort of mechanical "events" going on as I move the stick at different speeds.  I'm not sure if it is the spring slipping around or what.

It is really difficult to describe the difference, but the stick on the Ms Pacman / Galaga machine just felt tighter and more secure.

What is going on?  I mean, what are the mechanics behind this joystick vs the U360?

Thanks everyone.

[emphatic]

So, how did it look? Was it a balltop, a battop or something else entirely? Next time, take a picture.

[Woodshop Flunky]

It was a small ball top.  It looked just like what I'd expect on a Ms Pacman.  I just wish I knew how it worked internally (without buying a bunch of joysticks to reverse engineer)

I like the U360 just fine... only it feels like "things" are slipping around sometimes when I change speed or direction.  Which of course is constantly with something like Twin Cobra.

As much as anything... I'm getting scared!   I have a lathe and CNC milling machine, and I'm afraid this "curiosity" could turn into an unhealthy obsession to reinvent the joystick.

I should just play what I have and be content; my son is happy.

[Gray_Area]

I don't think you need to 're-invent' anything....though I could think of some things I might want made.....but since you have the stuff, why not have some fun? In any case...

Some people have raved about the re-issue stick, some have not been impressed. There isn't a real 'exploded' view at Happ. You could ask those here who have them for pictures. The differences between designs are: the Sanwa design is a not completely round inverted dome pivoting inside a bowl; the Happ design is probably close to the Super (a common kind of design) :

[Woodshop Flunky]

Thanks for the exploded view; very interesting.  Before I saw it, I was thinking a stiffer and wider spring might help.  The spring in the diagram seems quite a bit wider than the one in the U360.

It may just be that I've got muscle memory interfering with the U360 play.

[emphatic]

For MAME, using the U360 has it's advantages (instant 4-way, 2-way, 48-way etc.). I haven't touched one myself yet (I have JAMMA cabinets only) so I don't know how it feels, but if I were you, I wouldn't "stop and be happy" with the knowledge and machines at hand.

My favorite part of this hobby is customization and modification of the HARDWARE. I don't like software (or computers), but joysticks, buttons, soldering etc is awesome fun. This is why all the joysticks in my house are customized in one way or another. Sure, a brand new Seimitsu LS-32 is a very nice joystick (not only my opinion), but it is even better with enhancements:



The colored ones are original LS-32 parts, the white ones are custom made. They make a world of difference, especially for shmups.

The SUZO 500 is a great stick as well, but ugly. But with a custom shaft, you can just put a nice balltop on it and it will look just like any other balltop stick. It has some flaws though, but with some quite easy modding, these parts work as intended.

I have this as well:







Handmade by an English engineer. He's awesome, and so is that stick. So keep drawing until you find the stick of your dreams. Or just fix the issues you have with what you've got. The latter is often a better place to start.

[TopJimmyCooks]

I have one of those Ms Pac/Galaga's and don't really like it.  I'm in the process of replacing it with a leaf job from GGG.  

the base and mechanics are identical to the Happ super i have, exact same plastic chassis, pivot, bushings, etc.  Obviously, the handle is much shorter, and the bottom plate of the joystick housing is molded to have the 4 way diamond restriction.  the dustwasher is a different size slightly.  

For me, the action was so heavy I took the spring out and cut about a coil off of it.  worked better but still more resistance than we like.  

Best thing about it - matte texture on the balltop.  

Edit - you can see pics of the underside of this stick in my cp thread, link below. 

[Gray_Area]

Sure, a brand new Seimitsu LS-32 is a very nice joystick (not only my opinion), but it is even better with enhancements:

Maybe you should 'put these on the market'.

Handmade by an English engineer. He's awesome, and so is that stick. So keep drawing until you find the stick of your dreams. Or just fix the issues you have with what you've got. The latter is often a better place to start.

Besides all the metal, what is special about this stick?

[emphatic]

About the LS-32 parts, they will be available at some time, more testing seems to be needed though (according to the manufacturer).

That metal stick has a very short engage/throw and, because of the material, a very long lifespan.

[Gray_Area]

That metal stick has a very short engage/throw and, because of the material, a very long lifespan.

I meant, how it is designed to do that?...or is it a trade secret?

[mgb]

One big difference on a stick like that used in the Ms Pacman (if it was original) is that it used a rubber centering grommet rather than a spring.
you can see an exploded view in the manual on page 51.
http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Bally_Midway/MsPac-Man_Parts_and_Operating_Manual_(Jan_82).pdf

I have toyed around with the idea of getting u360s, but I really like old school conventinal joystick like my JLWs (though they are a bit clicky)

I have a customers Ms Pacman right now and I will be taking apart the stick at some point to clean and adjust. let me know if you need any pics or measurements.

[Woodshop Flunky]

Thanks MGB!  Please post any pics you can take of the joystick.  I'm sure a lot of us here are fairly ignorant of the different joystick mechanics.

The rubber grommet sounds interesting.  I really like the U360 for many reasons, but I can sense/feel/hear (not really sure which or all) the mechanics of the spring and the bearing surfaces.  Some of the other games I've played seem to have none of this.  The clicking of the microswitchs doesn't bother me.

[Woodshop Flunky]

Just took a look at the exploded view of the joystick in your link.  That rubber grommet really is a different animal than what I've seen with the spring setup in my U360.

Thanks again!

[mgb]

From what I know, most of the older sticks used a rubber centering grommet similar to that.
I know the wico leafs did and I have a pair of Rotary sticks from a Heavy Barrel and they have a centering grommet too (bassically built just like Wicos, maybe thats who made them?)

But when those grommets get beat and they tear away then they are pretty bad.

I'll try and get some pics, what not from that stick as soon as I can

[emphatic]

That metal stick has a very short engage/throw and, because of the material, a very long lifespan.

I meant, how it is designed to do that?...or is it a trade secret?

The switches (non-blade microswitches) just sit VERY close to the actuator. The shaft then travels very short after actuation to the edge of the square gate hole.

[Gray_Area]

The switches (non-blade microswitches) just sit VERY close to the actuator. The shaft then travels very short after actuation to the edge of the square gate hole.

Is the plate also a restrictor?  I'd like to see underneath it.

[TopJimmyCooks]

@woodshop - I really like the Groovy Game Gear leafpro joystick I just installed.  I've only played a few games but it's amazingly fun.  shorter throws than a u360 with circular restrictor.  perfect centering spring.  I couldn't say if it feels like an authentic rubber grommet wico, but it's a lot better than the Happ microswitch ms. pac for me.  worth a try for $18 or whatever.  I undermounted it to get the short projection above the cp.

[emphatic]

The switches (non-blade microswitches) just sit VERY close to the actuator. The shaft then travels very short after actuation to the edge of the square gate hole.

Is the plate also a restrictor?  I'd like to see underneath it.

The only restrictor is the rounded square hole you see here:



This picture also shows the screws that hold the microswitches in place.

[Woodshop Flunky]

@woodshop - I really like the Groovy Game Gear leafpro joystick I just installed.  I've only played a few games but it's amazingly fun.  shorter throws than a u360 with circular restrictor.  perfect centering spring.  I couldn't say if it feels like an authentic rubber grommet wico, but it's a lot better than the Happ microswitch ms. pac for me.  worth a try for $18 or whatever.  I undermounted it to get the short projection above the cp.

I picked up one of the GGG leafpro joysticks.  I like the feel of it better than the U360.