What would you like in a controller adaptor?

[Howard_Casto]

Been toying around with this idea for a universal console controller adaptor for years, but next month I will take a break from all my outstanding projects and finally take the plunge.  

I'm not sure what will come out of this experiment.  Maybe some open source code for your favorite avr, maybe some closed source code that I sell, maybe a full fledged physical product or any combination of the three, I'll just have to see how it goes.  

Anyway, now is the time to make suggestions.  

Right now these are the things that I want to do:

1.  One adaptor for all controllers.  With a decent sized amtel chip it should be possible to support nearly every controller ever released in the US.  No need to nickel and dime everybody by releasing the same pcb with a different bit of code in it for each console (*cough* retrozone *cough*)

2.  At least two controller ports per adaptor.  Again, no need to buy a seperate one for each player when a good avr will have enough bw to support multiple controllers at once.  

3.  When you plug in the adaptor it will show up as a "modern gamepad" in terms of the number of buttons and axis and it will always show that way regardless of the physical controller you plug in.  Also buttons will have standardized mappings (start is always button 8, slect button 7, ect).  This ensures that you can swap out controllers without the issue of a usb device connect/disconnect.  


4.  Oddball controllers will be supported.  Wanna use the nes zapper? (on your crt monitor)  Sure!  Vas controller?  Superscope?  Multi-tap?  All supported.  I've looked into it, it won't be that hard.

5.  Oddball accessories supported.  The means stuff like the n64 rumblepack, the dreamcast vmu, ect...

6.  HID only, no drivers.  This limits what I can do, but not by much.  Windows is on this whole "signed drivers only" kick and this is the reason great adaptors like the n64 adaptoid don't fully work in vista/win7.  The easiest way to fix this is to simply go driverless.  It means that any user/programmer data sent to the controller will have to be done via a generic device write, but that's ok as it will probably be unnecessary anyway.

7.  Modular.  I don't want some hideous squid looking thing with 40 connectors hanging out.  I'm thinking of a mini, jamma-like fingerboard, with each console port plugging in seperately.  We'll have to see on this one though.  

Anyway that's what I've got, suggestions are welcome.  

[Donkbaca]

So is this for emus on a pc? Or to hook up your cab controls to a console?

I think you could go modular like how the igo does with charging tips.

An analog solution would be nice

[crashwg]

If you succeed in building this with all the features you've listed I'd pay $50+.  The only thing I would like to see in a product like this would be being able to use it on an XBOX (or an XBOX version) since that's where I do all my emulation.

[Howard_Casto]

The initial version would be pc only because it's easier for me to troubleshoot, but I would eventually like to make an identical device for both the xbox and wii/gc. 

I would have to learn the gc protocol to add gc support for the pc adaptor, so I'd simply do it in reverse.  As for the xbox, well it already uses usb, I would just have to fake a xbox controller. 

Adaptors that work on consoles would probably have limitations though, due to what I have to interface with.  Lightguns, for example, would probably be nixed.  Also it would require hardware modifications to the adaptor.....  The xbox supports usb hubs, but only one hub per controller, so you would need four xbox cables coming out of the thing to support multiple controllers.  The same deal with the gc/wii. 

If (and that's a BIG if) I were to get this to the product stage I would suspect that the cost would be more in the 20-35 dollar range.  Of course that's just for the pcb and one set of console ports. (Your choice).  The most expensive part of a device would be all the proprietary connectors for the various consoles.  Ones that use standard pc connectors are easy, you can buy those ports for under a dollar, but for some game consoles the only way you can get a port is to buy and extension cable and hack it.  Said cables can cost anywhere from 5 bucks to 20 with shipping included.  If I buy some to hack then I have to pay the shipping (which is most of the cost) and then you have to pay for shipping again when I send it to you. 

The solution to that would simply to sell "naked" adaptors with just a fingerboard and solder points.  You get your own cable and solder it on. 

But again, I don't make products, I'm new to this.... we'll have to se how things turn out.

Just for point of reference though:

All consoles released prior to the nes uses db9 or db15 connectors, as did all sega consoles up until the cd.  So those are covered.  Both turbografx consoles used pc connectors, although the macro din connector is getting a little hard to find.  Neogeo used a ibm gameport, so it's easy to get.  Thanks to the hydra console, I can get nes ports ready to solder for 1.99 a piece.  All other console connectors are hard to come by though unless you hack a extension cable and some of them are quite expensive. 

[Dazz]

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Raphnet.net or not, but he has several DIY multi-controller chips.  I've used several of them for my controllers, including Atari Jaguar.

Printed circuit board 'Multiuse tiny1'
http://raphnet.net/electronique/multiuse_tiny1/index_en.php

Printed circuit board 'Multiuse PCB2'
http://raphnet.net/electronique/multiuse_pcb2/index_en.php

I haven't come across anything for Dreamcast yet though...

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah I'm aware, and he's made amazing progress.  He only seems interested (for the most part) with single port adaptors that need to sometimes be hard-wired for a specific controller type though. 

Also he seems to be going down the flawed path of the controller disconnecting and reconnecting whenever you plug in a different controller type.  It doesn't sound like a big deal but when you are trying to make a console-only fe and navigation is controlled by the joystick then it can be. 


You aren't going to see any DC stuff on his site most likely.  That thing uses the "maple bus" system.  Imagine a seralized modular port system similar to USB only it isn't usb and was only used on one device that only lasted a year so there isn't any documentation.    I intend to work on that one last and to be honest I'm not 100% certain that I'll be able to get anything usable either.

Regardless of that the main reason I'm going a different route is the fact that I think the chip he is using is too puny.  More than that it doesn't have enough i/o pins on teh board to handle some of these insaine direct-connect controllers like the neo-geo.  My software development platform is probably going to be the teensy 2 or teensy 2+.  These are setup to minimize the number of components and thus minimize cost down the road.  Plus teensy is open-sourced and easy to come buy, so if the whole hardware end of the stuff falls apart I can simply offer code to load on a teensy and/or pre-programmed teensies. 

We'll see though, I still haven't ordered my supplies.  The first is tomorrow so I better do that sometime this week. 

[Dazz]

Well, I'm definitely interested in seeing what you come up with.  Right now I don't keep all my controllers plugged in, but I would like to.  I can see where I might run into issues with his chips in the future.  I have 2 of every single original console controllers and would love to have an adapter for them all.

[ark_ader]

It has to be cable friendly.  I only use the X arcade as it interfaces all my consoles with some considerable cable mess.  If there was a device that handled all my toys that did not require massive dongle like appendages I too would be interested in buying one.  That said Howard, lets look at adding a few helpful interfaces that would be a killer product:

Video:  It is a complete PITA to have a multi-video switch box.  If the switchbox was incorporated, video noise might be reduced.  Perhaps including a RF modulator or composite converter as standard?

Voltage: Wall warts are another PITA.  If there was some sort of switched DC adapter to reduce the cable mess on the back of the unit.  Maybe a Step up/down transformer for international use?

Size:  Most of my adapters/switches are small, and cannot take the cable weight.  If the adapter was weighted and had installation mounts for cabinets/shelves with plenty of room for connectors, that would be a huge benefit.

If I had such a device I could reduce my cable management and have all my consoles ready to play in or outside an arcade cabinet.  Maybe I'm asking too much! 

[Howard_Casto]

Well, I'm definitely interested in seeing what you come up with.  Right now I don't keep all my controllers plugged in, but I would like to.  I can see where I might run into issues with his chips in the future.  I have 2 of every single original console controllers and would love to have an adapter for them all.

Well I'm not going to go quite that far, but it will defiantely be less of a mess. 

On the pc side of things you wold see a "card slot" similar to what you would see on the memcard/rumblepack slot of a n64 controller.  The various controller ports, which would essentailly be nothing but the ports themselves and a fingerboard would plug into the slot.  The idea is you would leave your controllers plugged into the ports but leave the ports unplugged except for the one you are using.  Now that being said I'm definately not going to make the pinouts closed source, if anything I will have to make them available because I'm going to have a hard time tracking down a few of these connectors. 

So it wouldn't be as user friendly (you would probably need some dip switches to select the mode) but yeah if you wanted you could make a gigantic panel with all of the ports on it. 

[Howard_Casto]

It has to be cable friendly.  I only use the X arcade as it interfaces all my consoles with some considerable cable mess.  If there was a device that handled all my toys that did not require massive dongle like appendages I too would be interested in buying one.  That said Howard, lets look at adding a few helpful interfaces that would be a killer product:

Video:  It is a complete PITA to have a multi-video switch box.  If the switchbox was incorporated, video noise might be reduced.  Perhaps including a RF modulator or composite converter as standard?

Voltage: Wall warts are another PITA.  If there was some sort of switched DC adapter to reduce the cable mess on the back of the unit.  Maybe a Step up/down transformer for international use?

Size:  Most of my adapters/switches are small, and cannot take the cable weight.  If the adapter was weighted and had installation mounts for cabinets/shelves with plenty of room for connectors, that would be a huge benefit.

If I had such a device I could reduce my cable management and have all my consoles ready to play in or outside an arcade cabinet.  Maybe I'm asking too much! 

I'm not sure what you mean by video.  It's a controller adaptor, video isn't going to be necessary.  If you are thinking that maybe I needed to add one because of the lightgun support that isn't the case.  The reason commercial products like the act-labs guns do that is because they emulate a mouse.  I'm just going to expose the trigger(s) and light sensor and it will be emu programmers jobs to get them working.  I know nes zappers are particularly easy to hook up.  (Of course they only work on nintendo lightgun games, but still) 

Voltage isn't going to be an issue.  All controllers use voltage in the range of 3-5 volts, which I can get from the usb port.  If it looks like the multitaps are draining too much power I can always tack on a secondary usb cord like they do with hard drive adaptors.  If we ever get to adaptors that plug into the consoles it will be the same deal, you can pull around 5v from the console so no need for an external wall wart.


In terms of the box the adaptor is in, I might not even sell one.  If I do it's going to be a plain-jane project box with some extra room in it.  Extra room so you can mount it however you like.  Drill some holes right through the box and screw it down for a arcade install.  Screw on an L-bracket and mount it on a blank cd/hdd plate for a pc install.  Bare minimum the connectors and pcb are going to have screw holes for easy mounting.

[HaRuMaN]

Trio Linker Plus handles DC controls to USB already.  Could you reverse engineer that?

[ark_ader]

It has to be cable friendly.  I only use the X arcade as it interfaces all my consoles with some considerable cable mess.  If there was a device that handled all my toys that did not require massive dongle like appendages I too would be interested in buying one.  That said Howard, lets look at adding a few helpful interfaces that would be a killer product:

Video:  It is a complete PITA to have a multi-video switch box.  If the switchbox was incorporated, video noise might be reduced.  Perhaps including a RF modulator or composite converter as standard?

Voltage: Wall warts are another PITA.  If there was some sort of switched DC adapter to reduce the cable mess on the back of the unit.  Maybe a Step up/down transformer for international use?

Size:  Most of my adapters/switches are small, and cannot take the cable weight.  If the adapter was weighted and had installation mounts for cabinets/shelves with plenty of room for connectors, that would be a huge benefit.

If I had such a device I could reduce my cable management and have all my consoles ready to play in or outside an arcade cabinet.  Maybe I'm asking too much! 

I'm not sure what you mean by video.  It's a controller adaptor, video isn't going to be necessary.  If you are thinking that maybe I needed to add one because of the lightgun support that isn't the case.  The reason commercial products like the act-labs guns do that is because they emulate a mouse.  I'm just going to expose the trigger(s) and light sensor and it will be emu programmers jobs to get them working.  I know nes zappers are particularly easy to hook up.  (Of course they only work on nintendo lightgun games, but still) 

Voltage isn't going to be an issue.  All controllers use voltage in the range of 3-5 volts, which I can get from the usb port.  If it looks like the multitaps are draining too much power I can always tack on a secondary usb cord like they do with hard drive adaptors.  If we ever get to adaptors that plug into the consoles it will be the same deal, you can pull around 5v from the console so no need for an external wall wart.


In terms of the box the adaptor is in, I might not even sell one.  If I do it's going to be a plain-jane project box with some extra room in it.  Extra room so you can mount it however you like.  Drill some holes right through the box and screw it down for a arcade install.  Screw on an L-bracket and mount it on a blank cd/hdd plate for a pc install.  Bare minimum the connectors and pcb are going to have screw holes for easy mounting.

I thought why stop at adding PC interfaces to controllers and add a solution to both PC and console. 1. Having a box that works with all console controllers. 2. Having a box that consolidates Power/Video/Controller for the PC and the arcade cabinet users out there.  I do not see a product like this out there.  How many people have more than one console in their cab?  I have 9 consoles and two PCs to wire up.  I would love a way to consolidate them all.

[TAG]

How do you think it would compare to the Bliss-Box?  More controllers supported?

[Howard_Casto]

There will probably be more supported.


Bliss Box seems to support the "easy" controllers.  I want to support a lot more of the "out-there" ones.  Also I'm not quite sure because I'm unfamilair with a few of those controllers and the list seems to be artifically lengthened.  For example.... the nes advantage, classic nes gamepad, nes dogbone and the nes max are all identical internally so if you support one they are all supported obviously, but they are all listed on there.  Don't get me wrong I would list them all as well for clarity's sake, but it makes it hard to figure out how many different controllers are supported. 

My goal is to support every controller for use on a north american console ever released with a few exceptions. 

1.  I'm not going to go out of my way to support the 3 dollar knock-off controller you bought online.  Brand name controllers only.

2.  I'm not going to bend over backwards to support sony controllers seeing as how the ps3 controllers will work on the pc and ps2/ps1 controllers are virtually identical.   That doesn't mean I won't support them, they just aren't a priority. 

3.  No support for xbox classic, xbox 360, ps3, or wii controllers.  They all work on the pc as they are usb/bluetooth devices. 

Of course that's my goal.... that doesn't mean it will end up that way.

Actually would a planned list help?

Nes:

All Gamepads
Power Glove
Zapper
Power Pad
Vaus Controller
4-Score/Satellite

Snes:

All Gamepads
Super Scope
Mouse (maybe...  is it really worth it for pc use?)
Hudson Multitap

Virtual Boy:

Maybe the controller (might not be worth it due to non-existant controller ports).

N64:

All name brand gamepads
Rumble Pack
Memory card (maybe)

Master System:

All Gamepads
Lightgun (sorry I don't know the name)


Genesis:

All gamepads (3 and 6 button)
Multitap

CD/32x:

Uses genesis controllers

Saturn:

Gamepads

Turbografx:

All gamepads
Hudson Multitap

Neo-Geo:

All gamepads


"Atari" Consoles (2600/5200/7800  Vectrex also many Amiga and C64 consoles):

All joysticks, paddles, trackballs, ect

Maybe the kids controllers on the 2600.

Jaguar:

All gamepads

Multitap

IBM PC (midi gameport):

All controllers that conform to the official ibm standard.

Dreamcast:

All gamepads

vmu/memory card

Perhaps some oddballs like the fishing controller.




That isn't a final list... it's the list of controllers I've been able to find info on via the net and I'm fairly confident that I can get working.  Also to support a controller I have to know it exists.  That always helps.

[Hoopz]

How about Intellivision or Intellivision II controllers?

[Howard_Casto]

I think it's a definate "maybe" on that one.  It uses a matrix almost as complex as a keyboard encoder.  That isn't hard to code, but it means I'm going to have to use a input for a dipswitch as such a controller isn't auto-detectable.  Perhaps I can lump all of the matrix-style controllers into a single protocol (probably the Jaguar).

The contoller is fairly terrible is the thing.  But then again I did mention the power glove. 

[Howard_Casto]

Ok I need input on something. 

Out of all the consoles you know, which ones have useful buttons on the console that aren't on the gamepad?

I was thinking that many of these consoles are going to leave open extra pins on the avr so it might be nice to but these extra buttons right on the adaptor, so you can navigate the emulator with just the joystick.   

Example:  Most consoles have a power and reset button.  It was thinking about putting those on.  Power for "escape" and reset for either resetting emulation or the user's choice.

I know the 2600 also had a select button.  Since the 2600 has so many extra pins, I would just put that one on the atari port itself.    Any others that I should know about?

[ark_ader]

Why not have a software utility that does all the configurations and mappings?

[crashwg]

Why not have a software utility that does all the configurations and mappings?

6.  HID only, no drivers.

[Howard_Casto]

Why not have a software utility that does all the configurations and mappings?

6.  HID only, no drivers.

Well that's still not completely out of the question.  I can setup a generic hid communication device and use it to send data to the adaptor.  Also I very much intend for you to be able to update the firmware via  USB write.  All of that being said, I'm trying to make this thing as simple and user-friendly as possible. 

So the goal at least is you plug in a port system and it automatically knows what console contollers you'll be using.  You plug in the controller and it knows which one. 

Anything pre-nes is a pain in the butt because that you can't tell programatically what type of controller it is because they just made stuff up as they went along and typically just used straight digital/analog pins however they wanted. 

All sega controllers, for example, use the same multiplexing protocol and each generation builds upon the last, so only one dip setting for all sega's.  Nes/Snes use the same protocol and n64/gc use the same one as well.

But pre-nes it's a mess.   Take the 2600.  The joystick, driving controller, paddle controllers, and kids keypad all use different pins for similar buttons/actions and there is no way of knowing which one is plugged in.  Now the joystick, driving and paddle controllers can all exist happily together but the kids controller throws everything out the window and uses the pins like the intellivison controller as a matrix.  I only have so many pins I can use as dip switches, so I'm going to have to come up with a very clever method of grouping similar controllers onto the same dip. 

It might come down to a few of the super odd controllers requiring a re-flash afterall, but I'm trying to avoid that.

[Malenko]

Any way to get on this early, like toss some money your way to help fund the project, and in the end get a controller adapter?

sounds awesome sauce 

[HaRuMaN]

Any way to get on this early, like toss some money your way to help fund the project, and in the end get a controller adapter?

sounds awesome sauce 

Did you learn nothing from Ram Controls?    

Just Kidding

[Malenko]

I actually thought about that when I posted.

Id like to do SOMETHING to help the community (other then sending out free buttons) and I think I could actually be a bit of a help. Ive got NeoGeo controllers, Sega controllers, SNES,PSX, 3DO, Saturn, etc to test with =)

[Howard_Casto]

Money I don't want, in case the whole thing falls though.  Controllers on the other hand are extremely helpful.  It's not even a matter of cost, it's tracking down the "what-it's" on ebay or at flea markets and collecting a big enough group.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves though.  I'm going to order a pre-built avr and some supplies this weekend hopefully.  Then we'll have to make sure I'm a competant enough programmer to actually make a usb joystick.  My previous avr experience has been more like "oooo I made a light blink!"  I mean yeah I can program in C so in theory I should be ok, but programming hardware interfaces has the potential to be tricky.

Assuming I can get that setup and get my own collection of controllers working, get your shipping box ready. 


This is going to be a big ol' project though.  So yeah, help would be appreciated.   Finding a stable and cheap source of controller ports and/or extension cables for each system would be a great help not to mention useful to the community in general .....so if anybody wants to jump on that and start a thread.


Oh in case a list is helpful here is what I have off hand right now:

nes gamepads, nes zapper
snes gamepads, snes mouse
n64 gamepads, n64 mem cart, n64 rumble pack
gc gamepads, gc wavebird

dc gamepads, dc vmu
atari driving controllers, wico trackball (around here somewhere)
psx dance mat
more ibm pc joysticks than i can count

I've probably got some others, but that's the list of stuff that's actually in my collection and not in a parts drawer ripe for hacking somewhere.

As you can see I'm lacking in the pre-nes and sega dept.  In terms of sega controllers though I think a couple of 6 buttons should do it.  3 buttons and the master system controller are the same, you just poll for fewer buttons. 

The main thing I need it multitaps for the two/one port systems.  Nintendo brand multitaps are quite logical, hudson's (the guys that made em for the snes, sega and pce consoles) are insaine.   In the case of nes/snes it might be cheaper for you guys and easier for me to just include 4 ports as the nes protocol only had one unique wire for each controller port, but for sega and tg16 consoles that just isn't possible because they use too many pins.

[withalligators]

For Saturn the Nights analog controller is pretty neat.  It doesn't work on the Joybox either.  Pretty similar to the DC controller but with six face buttons. 
Cheers,
Alex

[Howard_Casto]

Thanks man... you guys just list em as you think of them. 


I've spent this week scouring the net checking prices to figure out what we are going to need. 

It's pretty obvious to me, and at least initially, these things are going to be lovingly made by hand, by yours truely.  You can get pre-made avrs so cheaply that unless you are getting huge numbers made, it isn't cost effective to have custom pcbs made up. 

It looks like the teensy 2.0 is our best bet, it's 16 bucks.  I don't think I can get a pcb made and sold back to you for 16, much less having the components soldered on.  So for now at least, the teensy is my development platform and assuming I get to the selling stage, inital adaptors will be teensys with my custom software in a nice project box. 

Next comes the matter of cost vs asthetics.  I know I mentioned a nice mini adaptor on the main box that plugs into the various port adaptors.  I can do that, but each connector would cost (to me, not you) around 5-6 bucks.  So that means each port adaptor (nes, snes, genesis, ect) would have 5 bucks tacked on to the price.  Couple that with the expensive extension cables we might have to buy for some of the more exotic consoles that that would bring the cost of the port adaptors up so high that we might as well go the retrozone route and put a avr in each one. 

The solution?  Go UGLY!  I found an industrial site that sells crimp-style db 25 (parallel port) connectors for 38 cents.  Yes 38 cents vs 6 bucks.... you do the math.  I can also get an even greater discount in I buy in bulk.  Crimp style also means less labor costs to you.  If I had to solder 25 connections for each adaptor it would probably take me 30 min to an hour for each one, not including the time to do the various port adaptors.  With crimp style I can do things much more quickly, and thus much more cheaply.  I know some of you who have used crimp connectors might be yelling at the screen now things like "the pins will fall out!!!" But I've found that a bit of glue after you insert the pins will make them as sturdy as their solder counterparts. 

So the adaptor is going to be a teensy in a small project box with a db 25 female connector on the front.  Each port adaptor will have a db 25 female adaptor on one end and your specific game ports on the other.  When a port adaptor is plugged in it will look virtually identical to my initial design, so I say it's a fair trade-off considering the cost benefit. 


Anyway, it looks like I've got a plan of attack.  I'm going to order a couple of teensys this weekend along with some misc parts so I can get started on the software end.  Later on I'll start ordering the project boxes and connectors so I can design the interface.

Although I'm not willing to open up the actual code (too much work for zero compensation) I will be posting my polling methods as I want anyone with competant programming knowledge to be able to learn from my adventure. 

[Malenko]

Im not going to list every controller made, just the ones I have access to (ie unboxed after my move):

Sega Saturn
Saturn Stunner (gun)
Sega NiGHTS analog controller
Saturn Steering Wheel
Dreamcast (with VMU)
Dreamcast Streeting Wheel
Neo Geo AES
Super NES
Sega Genesis 3 button
Sega Genesis 6 button
3DO 5 button
Playstation
Playstation 2
XBOX

[Howard_Casto]

Well I guess I waited too long. 

The teensys with headers are sold out atm, so it will be a while before I order my stuff.  I could solder on my own pins, but man... those things are tiny!

I'll keep you all posted

[withalligators]

This is a project I'm interested in.  I've always wanted to have a port panel that would allow me to plug original controllers in to play on an emu rig.  So I'm willing to invest in it.  If I was to lend you controllers, would they be sacraficed to figure out pinouts and such or would you even need to do that?  I have tons of crap and weird controllers.  Some of it I could donate to the cause, but the majority of I would sort of want back. What do you think? 
Also, in all those weird NES accessories (U-force, Rob, that Konami helmet thing, etc.) are all those inputs translated to standard NES button presses by the time they reach the system?
How about turbo stuff like on TG pads?  Is that all done in controller?

Cheers,
Alex

[Howard_Casto]

I don't think I would ever have to hack up a controller to get it working.  Typically there is enough info about a controller on the net for me to write a function but I need to controller to test it in case I code the function wrong or in case the info on the net is in error. 

Nes controllers pretty much all output a standard gamepad signal with the following exceptions:

zapper:  uses data pins 2 and 3 as analog pins for the trigger and light sensor

power pad:  uses data pins 2 and 3 as serial lines bumping the total inputs from 8 to 24.

4-score:  sends 24 bits over each port instead of 8.  The last 8 bits on each port are essentially an id string that says "Hey I'm a 4 score, there are two controllers to read on this port!"

vaus controller:  I can only find info on the famicom version and it says that data pin 2 is used as a seralized analog line to read the pot with data 3 as an analog line for the button press.

Power Glove:  MIGHT have added functionality via pins 2 and 3.  It would only work on the single game designed for the power glove anyway so I'm not too concerned.

TG pads?  Tubro grafx?

Turbo grafx uses straight analog pins similar to an atari, but with a multiplexer line.  Except for a different button arrangement it works exactly like the sega gamepads. 

[withalligators]

Yes, TG + Turbografx, Duo, etc.  I was curious how it handled the turbo switch settings, whether it was done in-controller or the turbo setting was applied to the button press signal in-console.  Either ways, If you're not going to kill them, I'll gladly lend some controllers to get things up and running when you are ready.
Cheers,
Alex

[Howard_Casto]

http://www.gamesx.com/controldata/turbocont.htm

There is an extra chip on the controllers for turbo.  It looks complex but basically it's stealing 5v from the power line and using the chip as a timer to rapidly press the button.  It's done on the controller end, the console doesn't "see" turbo.  This is how it's done on pretty much any controller with turbo btw. 

Slow-mo, which was popular in the nes era, works the same way, only the chip rapidly presses start.  This is why most controllers with slow-mo back then also had turbo and vice-versa.

[Howard_Casto]

Since I can't really start on the hardware what with the teensys being sold out I thought I would go into research mode a bit more. 

Looked at the consoles that use multiplexers a bit more carefully.  (Sega consoles, tg16, ect) it appears that if I re-arrange the pins when I hook it up on our end, I should be able to use one function for all of them, which is great because it saves limited memory in the avr and limited dip switch inputs on the pcb.  Not to mention the fact that it's easier for me to code. 

Saturn controllers are essentially genesis controllers btw... they just have more buttons.  So what I'll do is when in "sega mode" I'll read the controller port as if it's a saturn controller and anything with fewer buttons will automatically work.  I also looked into Saturn's only popular accessory controller, the twin stick.  The twin stick shows up as a regular saturn pad so that's how I will do it as well.

I also looked into the master system "light phaser" hoping it was similar to the nes lightgun and thankfully it is identical!  A light sensor and a trigger switch hooked straight to pins, no fuss no muss.  So even without owning a light phaser I can add support simply by using my nes zapper for testing. 

I think that the phaser worked differently on the software end of things though.  It shouldn't matter as that stuff should be dealt with by the emulators. 

So looking at everything, the only controllers that are really going to be complex to hookup are later model controllers.... basically the n64 onwards.  This is when the industry switched from simple multiplexing and serial bits to a full on serial buss system, similar to usb.

So in short I am 100% confident in getting everything prior to the n64 working properly, it's just a matter of looking up the data and hooking up the pins.  N64 and GC controllers I'm fairly confident about.  PSX looks more complex and DC looks damn near insaine. 

[Howard_Casto]

More interesting reseach....

I found a site that is trying to document R.O.B.'s flahs protocol.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/177286-any-interest-in-nes-rob-homebrews/

I know what you guys are thinking.... "But doesn't R.O.B. already work as long as you are on a crt tv?"    Well yes he does, but what the guys on that thread don't seem to understand is that because rob's sensor isn't directional, any incandescent or possibly ir-led light source could send data to him. 

Translation:  If I use an output on the avr coupled with a ir-led or possibly a grain on wheat build pointed at rob's eye, we can control him even on a lcd screen!

Not a priority... my personal rob died YEARS ago, but it's still something fun I want to try.

[withalligators]

Totally not worth figuring out, but how about the miracle keyboard?  ROB sucks.  figuring out how to emulate it would be way more fun than playing a game with it.  I sold mine on ebay years ago when NES stuff was peaking.  $200 for a piece of garbage?  yes please.

[Howard_Casto]

I agree, rob does suck, but I think better games could be made for him.  The problem seemed to be that rob is very slow but the games that used him are pretty fast, so all he ended up doing was slowing down the action. 

He would be better suited to a puzzle game. 

Keyboards, regardless of what they came off of, are just matrixes like a pc keyboard.  They are easy to implement, but like you said, not really worth it considering we are both typing on a keyboard right now. 

[TheSlim]

I am interested in this project.  My cabinet has 2 nes, 2 snes, 2 n64, and 2gc ports.

I wanted to add 2 of every type of controller port but I ran out of good options.  I used 4nes4snes for the nes/snes ports, mayflash for the n64, and raphnet's gc for the gamecube.  I also have a 4 port genesis/sms usb adaptor that i never added to my cab.

With saturn, dreamcast, ps1/2, and even gamecube, it was very difficult to find good adapters/circuits that did not cost an arm and a leg or that did not flat out suck. 

If I ever build a 3rd slim cab (my current 2nd cab is not finished....), I would like to add 4 players and thus 4 ports for every system.  Raphnet has great solutions for nes/snes/db9 ports but getting into the "Nextgen" stuff will be difficult.  I hope your newest project fixes this.

[Howard_Casto]

Well cost is always going to be an issue on the more exotic consoles due to the proprietary connector ports. 

Take your Sega Saturn example:

Assuming they are legit, this the cheapest saturn site I can find:

http://www.collectorscardsandgames.com/new/SegaSaturn.html


As you can see, extension cables (which I need to make the adaptor) are 3 bucks + shipping a pop. 

So two ports... that's 6 bucks + shipping.  Let's round it up to around 8.  Add another two bucks for the project box, two more bucks for the db 25 and wiring and you are up to 12 bucks just for the connector housing.  That isn't what it will cost either, that's what it will cost ME in materials. 

Now I'm not out to make a fortune on the individual connectors, I want to sell them as cheaply as possible.  I'll make the profit off of the avr and software.  That being said, some of these consoles use pretty pricey connectors and unless someone can direct me to a cheap supplier things could add up. 

Mind you it will still be far cheaper than buying these ripoff one console adaptors that are 10-20 bucks for a single controller port but I just wanted to give a reality check. 

[crashwg]

Keyboards, regardless of what they came off of, are just matrixes like a pc keyboard.

The Miracle Keyboard is not a typing keyboard but rather a music keyboard for the NES, SNES, Mac, Amiga, Genesis and PC.  I'm not sure if you knew that and they use the same technology so I'm pointing it out just in case.

[smalltownguy]

I have a Bliss box board. I bought it directly from the guy making them, and I asked him to send me the DIY board.

I've been working on getting my hands on console controller sockets, and it's been a real PITA for some of them. Extension cords are not cheap for some platforms.

If you can put together a pretty comprehensive solution for the top 10-12 consoles out there, I'd be willing to pay up to $200 for it. This would include all sockets flush mounted on some kind of panel that I could incorporate into my cab front or side. Hot swappable would be important.