Wow... This p'd me off... (Seller's 'miracle of an invention')

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MP3-Jukebox-Karaoke-Mame-Internet-Multimedia-TV-System-/180691103591?pt=UK_Video_Games_Coin_Operated_MJ&hash=item2a12076f67

It's actually selling and I'm sure he's getting double his money back (a profit of £150/$245). 

He's created a simple program to shell to on a cheap PC, added a few options to pick from in the program - MAME, Jukebox, Windows... and included a few accessories.

One accessory being this, which is said to be for MAME (which comes with thousands of roms):




WTF


Furthermore, there's thousands of songs supplied illegally...

Does anybody recognise the jukebox program? I imagine he's ripping more people off with that as well. I imagine he is with the karaoke and even windows also.


Damn, I needed a minute to calm down when I saw it...

[Xiaou2]

Why the hell are you so bent?

 Is it cause hes taking your money?  Nope.
Is it cause hes making money that you dont want to risk making? Jealousy?

 The only person he will hurt will be himself, IF the various companies prosecute him.

 Its the same with any crime or gray area no-no's.

 And Im certain that sometime in your own life, you have and maybe even continue to do Something that is illegal.

 Its only because you think your version is well within the moral high-ground, that its justifiable.

 While Im not condoning his behavior... There are people out there robbing banks, killing others, scamming people out of their retirements, starving to death in poverty.. and much much worse.. but THIS is what you get worked up about?!  I think you need a reality check buddy.

[CheffoJeffo]

Let me get this straight ... Xiaou2 is telling somebody else that they need a reality check ?

[Well Fed Games]

The only person he will hurt will be himself

Eh, shady is shady. I don't imagine people charging for emulation is good for us hobbyists... and due to a lack of people starving to death around my computer currently, I think this is a fine thing to get upset about. 

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

Xiaou2 you sound like a real ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---.

WTF is your problem? I really can't be bothered to break your post down into individual statements and then respond with the obvious (and some not so obvious) points, that would put you in your place... from the sound of it, I'll just have to wait for 'mummy' to view your browsing history a little later anyway, for you to be scolded and made to realise.

[ark_ader]

Xiaou2 you sound like a real ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---.

WTF is your problem? I really can't be bothered to break your post down into individual statements and then respond with the obvious (and some not so obvious) points, that would put you in your place... from the sound of it, I'll just have to wait for 'mummy' to view your browsing history a little later anyway, for you to be scolded and made to realise.

I think that comment from you was totally unnecessary.

X2 can generate some questionable reads, but not enough to warrant that type disgusting language.

I think you need to read the rules on this forum and have a little think about your behavior - then apologize to x2. 

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

I was just going to edit it actually.

I didn't expect to get the type of response that I got from him. It seemed like he was implying that I'm jealous for a start, and I thought he was being aggressive and totally out of order.

I replied impulsively and did cross a line though. If I misinterpreted what you wrote - I am sorry X2. I am sorry to everybody who read it, regardless, also.

I should of explained my concerns with the post, or/and perhaps responded to each of his statements, in a kind manner. Not pseudo kindness however, I replied impulsively (I was sure I was not breaking any rules however), and I came to the realisation shortly after that he may of not been posting as described previously.


I'm a decent guy and I hope you are as well X2.

Also, I hope you will respond with something which informs me that I misinterpreted what you said and that there's no bad feelings between us.

[syph007]

For what it's worth, those listing tick me off too.  I reported it, and they'll take it down, but it's always around.  I see them all the time on ebay in one form or another, and no i have no personal stake in it one way or another, but it really does bug me.

[Xiaou2]

Eh, shady is shady. I don't imagine people charging for emulation is good for us hobbyists...

 Drawing attention to people like this is much worse than letting them get away with it and caught on their own eventually.

 In fact, all this person really did, was advertise for the guy. (of which it might very well be the same person)

It seemed like he was implying that I'm jealous for a start, and I thought he was being aggressive and totally out of order.

 I claimed you might very well be jealous.  As in my opinion, I cant fathom why anyone would go mad hatter over someone selling something emulation related.

 If you made some drivers for mame, then maybe I can see it a little more personal.  But heck, mames been sold commercially for years now. In chinese jamma systems, handheld systems, and in commercial systems like Ultracade (which most of the roms in ultracade were not licensed  IE: Illegal).

 Your colorful post was lost to me, cause I never got to read it.  However, weather you think you are breaking a rule of not doesnt matter.  What does matter more, is being a nice guy.  And a nice guy, should not go insane and start cursing at someone over something that wasnt even close to an attack on them (let alone a direct accusation).  Merely a speculative observation and constructive criticism on the reactional output level.

 I dont hold bad feelings about this, because to me, its not even worth sweating.  (Even IF I could read the full unedited post)

 It is however, sad that the apology is conditional. And that you take such offense to an indirectly implied consideration.  It wasnt as if I implied you did drugs for example, which IS something of value to actually get upset over.

 If someone calls me Jealous over something, its laughable, especially if it is not true.  (Fortunately, Ive gotten past that stage in my spiritual development)  But if it was true, then Id surely have to think about it and reconsider my thoughts and feelings.  Jealousy is a bitter thing, and it can ruin lives, most especially your own life experiences. (I know this from personal experience)

 But as I said, I was merely deducting the possibility of Jealousy with a logical based reasoning..  not outright calling you as such.  Take it as you will.

 
 Thanks for the defense Ark. 

[jimmy2x2x]

You might be interested in this seller: http://shop.ebay.co.uk/godburys/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562

[abispac]

What i wonder is how that guy can fit all that stuff in a 120 gb hard drive, i got about 5000 cds of medium quality and they take about 500gb not to mention the 5000 karaoke songs i have take about 120gb...they must be low quzlity, but i ilike the case for the computer.

[BobA]

You might be interested in this seller: http://shop.ebay.co.uk/godburys/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562

Looking at his feedback he sells the DJ software about 99% of the time.  Doesn't look like anyone is biting of his retro arcade games.

edit: fixed typo

[DaveMMR]

To the OP:  The best thing to do when you see these types of things is just report it to eBay. 

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

Hi X2

I was annoyed for many reasons but the two main ones being:

1)   The guys ripping of MAME devs. I, like many other people who are not psychopaths, can care when other people are affected negatively by situations. This situation is an example of that.

2)   It seems quite likely that the guy could profit from doing this, from doing almost nothing other than ripping people off (which is the machine’s selling point), in a way I have not seen before. I believe one should earn money fairly. Most people have to either work hard or have worked hard to fund their life, and they do/did this fairly. It caused me to feel bad for other people having to work hard whilst he’s doing a dishonest and unfair act, as well as feeling bad about myself being in the same situation. This bad feeling caused by the conflicting thoughts - “he’s doing this” & “I don’t want him to do this” (the reason for the latter just described, something which I’m sure many others think).

I did not get jealous. You talk of spiritual development, I am not sure how you would define this but me personally am extremely conscious of my cognitive behaviour, a state of being which, I believe, causes something which I would call a form of spiritual development. Furthermore, due to this state of mind I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there was no jealously in my mind.

BTW, my post is still fully visible in the form of ark’s quote, all I did to it was strike a line through the sentences.

You’ve said quite a lot of other stuff but I will just comment on me going “insane” bit and not being a nice guy – there are not enough hours in the day & also I’m really tired.

I was basically totally unprepared for the response you gave me, which at the time I thought was rude and insulting. I believed you were implying I’m jealous of this s.o.b, which is something I AM bothered about. You can’t see why but heck, I can’t understand some things about other people either, like everybody. Either way, I know there is nothing with being bothered by this. There is a lot wrong with how I responded though, as mentioned in the second post. “Why the hell are you so bent?... I think you need a reality check buddy” added with "Is it cause hes making money that you dont want to risk making? Jealousy?" Made it seem very negative and like an attack. Of cause so much is lost when communicating through text that this would have affected everything furthermore.

Lastly – I am a nice guy, this nice guy has just been toughened up by all the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- he’s gone through and thought he was being attacked!

But yeah, you’ve convinced me differently, like I realized might have been the case shortly after posting.

I’ll be much more careful in future, I’ll think more about what people’s words could mean.

Handshake?

[lastrega]

WOW , least you  guys arent mad at me anymore

[Xiaou2]

Hi X2

I was annoyed for many reasons but the two main ones being:

1)   The guys ripping of MAME devs. I, like many other people who are not psychopaths, can care when other people are affected negatively by situations. This situation is an example of that.

 In which way?  Mame Devs do their work for free.  If they were getting paid for their works, then I can see being much more aggressive in response.   

 However, remember, mamedevs are working on SOMEBODY else's games.
These games are not their own creations.  Which is why the devs cant take money for their works.

 If these were the devs original creations, or interpretive works... then the devs have a solid case, and people have a real reason to be upset.

2)   It seems quite likely that the guy could profit from doing this, from doing almost nothing other than ripping people off (which is the machine’s selling point), in a way I have not seen before. I believe one should earn money fairly. Most people have to either work hard or have worked hard to fund their life, and they do/did this fairly. It caused me to feel bad for other people having to work hard whilst he’s doing a dishonest and unfair act, as well as feeling bad about myself being in the same situation. This bad feeling caused by the conflicting thoughts - “he’s doing this” & “I don’t want him to do this” (the reason for the latter just described, something which I’m sure many others think).

 But again.. Whos getting hurt or ripped off?  When Atari released and sold Asteroids... it got its money way back then in the 80s.  And even with repackaged collections, the profit is minimal at best.  Much of the companies tho produced the older games are gone. And the ones who are still around barely care about the older stuff.  (some do, but many dont)

 What does hurt them however, is when someone pirates brand new software.  Theres not  really much of a loss on old property thats made is money 100x over.  But a new game, costs a lot to develop these days, and needs to recoup & profit, to keep them alive.

 Then again, if game companies priced their games lower, Im sure many more sales would be had, rather than people pirating them.
 
 

I did not get jealous. You talk of spiritual development, I am not sure how you would define this but me personally am extremely conscious of my cognitive behaviour, a state of being which, I believe, causes something which I would call a form of spiritual development. Furthermore, due to this state of mind I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there was no jealously in my mind.

 Well, its good that you were not jealous.  However, if for example, someone stole a bag of food out of the grocery store... would you immediately put him to be sentenced to death?  Or would you consider that the reason that he had to steal, was due to poverty, hunger, and other circumstances?

 When making a judgment about things, we should be careful not to be so harsh and abrupt.  Take some time to consider all possibilities.  Not tie too much emotion to it, so as to be able to think clearly, rationally, even logically.

 Anyways, as I said, thinking about all the things that I see on a constant basis that are so much worse than this... so much more damaging, it just makes me feel that people are taking things (the wrong things) way too seriously.

I was basically totally unprepared for the response you gave me, which at the time I thought was rude and insulting.

 At the same time, we have a very harsh post coming in for all to read.. and so in many ways I just countered with the same kind of energy. 

There is a lot wrong with how I responded though, as mentioned in the second post. “Why the hell are you so bent?... I think you need a reality check buddy” added with "Is it cause hes making money that you dont want to risk making? Jealousy?" Made it seem very negative and like an attack.

 Well, thanks for the admittance.  And yeah, my backlash could have been toned down a little as well.  But as I said, I was kind of countering your rage, with a little of my own annoyance at the kind of post you made.  Though, again, it wasnt really a personal attack.  But it did have some attitude kick to it.

I’ll be much more careful in future, I’ll think more about what people’s words could mean.
Handshake?

 Thanks man.  (Shake)

 We are just humans, all trying to deal with each others craziness. >.< 
And do the best we can, to better ourselves in the process.

 We can surely disagree, but should try to remain somewhat civil to each other.

  I still believe that reporting people like this may do more harm than good... because then companies get tired of dealing with all the complaints and extra work involved.  (Also the tons of various post and attention it draws) Such a thing could possibly lead to an attack at the source... rather than the few individuals.  Maybe Im wrong, but either way, I just cant see getting too upset about this stuff.

Best Wishes

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

In which way?

The MAME devs don’t want it sold and I think about them extremely respectfully. I don’t care about their reasons why (unless they were against my morals, which would be very unrealistic and of cause, this is not the case). They have made it & I am thankful to them, and I want them to be treated with their terms followed, at the very least.

But again.. Whos getting hurt or ripped off?

I believe everybody should earn money honestly, plus I share this view with many others. He’s not doing this so this caused me to feel bad and so would others (if they knew). I feel even worse because there are others with the same beliefs as me and this guy is acting against their beliefs as well – I share the ‘pain’ that would be felt on their part.

When making a judgment about things, we should be careful not to be so harsh and abrupt.  Take some time to consider all possibilities.  Not tie too much emotion to it, so as to be able to think clearly, rationally, even logically.

I naturally do this most of the time anyways, and you are correct. This was a thought out decision however.  You are never going to be 100% about whether your decision is the best one in a situation like this. Though I tried to weigh my reasons for not wanting him to do this against possible reason that would change my mind (a possible reason being he was raising money to pay for life saving treatment), gained from this was the desire to report him and the emotions I felt.  This is because there are other options one can take that would not go against my beliefs as much and win in the great battle of belief V situation, or not go against them at all – an example from the mountain of options available being a sponsored activity.

I still believe that reporting people like this may do more harm than good... because then companies get tired of dealing with all the complaints and extra work involved.  (Also the tons of various post and attention it draws) Such a thing could possibly lead to an attack at the source... rather than the few individuals.

I did not actually think of this at the time and you are correct again… Hmmm thinking about it, I’m not sure if reporting incidents like this is the best course of action actually - the possible negative after effects may outweigh the effects of not doing anything.

I’m glad we’re all good anyway mate…

[Malenko]

How dare you be mad someone is ripping off other people!

[pinballwizard79]

Haters gonna hate...

[Ginsu Victim]

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

 

Stop it!!

lol

[lastrega]

good luck, I made the mistake of asking for help more than once, and yeah I got a little mouthy with my post and was wrong (and sincerly appologized).... The group turned on me like a pack of rabid dogs. And not just this forum the hyperspin forum as well.... now I wait patiently, say double thanks yous, and still am shunned by the general community.... this is the MOST unforgiving forum EVER......... now watch 80 people are gonna call me an a**hole again........ oh well , the help you do get is good and most folks here are kind and nice (the ones that arent will eat you alive) it is best to not post again (or at least on this issue) for a while hopefully they will forget).... Forums are for folks to have and share ideas........ not to crush feelings..... when we get out of line put us back in our place........ and once you do and say we are sorry..............LET IT GO .........  ML

PS the guy was blocked on e bay as of this morning........ See. justice prevails

[HaRuMaN]

 

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

That sounds cruel lastrega... 

I think it seems like these guys are just joking though.

Hopefully   


& yeah I noticed he's been blocked. I'm really surprised it happened so quick!

[saint]

good luck, I made the mistake of asking for help more than once, and yeah I got a little mouthy with my post and was wrong (and sincerly appologized).... The group turned on me like a pack of rabid dogs. And not just this forum the hyperspin forum as well.... now I wait patiently, say double thanks yous, and still am shunned by the general community.... this is the MOST unforgiving forum EVER......... now watch 80 people are gonna call me an a**hole again........

I take all kinds of exception to this and have a different view on the turn of events. Anyone who is concerned about this should feel free to examine the threads in question and determine for themselves the tone of the initial posts and the resulting responses. 

--- saint

[CheffoJeffo]

this is the MOST unforgiving forum EVER

Never been to KLOV, have you ? 

[Malenko]

this is the MOST unforgiving forum EVER

Never been to KLOV, have you ? 

+1


I cant really say I've had much of a problem on any forum I frequent, the fact I'm not a shitcock comes in handy.

Dan Dan aka Dan X2 Hmmmmm..... 

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

  Oh brother... here we go...


Actually, it's got to be said. That's quite a clever. 

[ark_ader]

good luck, I made the mistake of asking for help more than once, and yeah I got a little mouthy with my post and was wrong (and sincerly appologized).... The group turned on me like a pack of rabid dogs. And not just this forum the hyperspin forum as well.... now I wait patiently, say double thanks yous, and still am shunned by the general community.... this is the MOST unforgiving forum EVER......... now watch 80 people are gonna call me an a**hole again........

I take all kinds of exception to this and have a different view on the turn of events. Anyone who is concerned about this should feel free to examine the threads in question and determine for themselves the tone of the initial posts and the resulting responses. 

--- saint

Do you have any links?

Its late on this side of the pond and I'm a lazy good for nothing to boot....

[Vigo]

Oh brother... here we go...


Actually, it's got to be said. That's quite a clever. 

Heh, it sounds like you have thick enough skin to do just fine here.   

Oh, and don't be afraid to dish it back. Malenko can take it. If not, then you will be a hero for finally chasing him away. We have all been trying to do that for years with no success.   

[lastrega]

see I was only making a silly joke about my experiances, and how I felt after my ordeal, and admited to fault. Please read my post , and see what nice things I said, and if you all feel I am a bad guy I am sorry I really am not...
anyway I love you all and wish to express nothing but love for the lot of you, I was just saying , that if one crosses the line , some folks round here just dont give one another chance to see how much I love this hobby and 99.9 percent of all of you:)  ............. I love you all and peace with all of us in arcade dream land:)   

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

Heh, it sounds like you have thick enough skin to do just fine here.

Ahhh... thanks! 

Oh, and don't be afraid to dish it back. Malenko can take it. If not, then you will be a hero for finally chasing him away. We have all been trying to do that for years with no success.

No problem.

Malenko - You fight like a dairy farmer!  YARR!!

[Malenko]

Malenko - You fight like a dairy farmer!  YARR!!

You gotta be funny, thats all I ask, or else I'll get everyone to call you DanX2 forever.

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

You gotta be funny, thats all I ask

Wow... :/

Sorry, I'm just a bit shocked by what you said.


IN BOOMING VOICE - "I can't believe you called one of the most hilarious quotes from gaming history, unfunny!!"

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

x 1,000,000 that, on my ---tallywhacker--- getting more than yours.

Besides -

[garnerb350]

Damnit Ginsu..I cant stop laughing man!

[Ginsu Victim]

What's funny is I've actually watched that well before anyone added the song to it.

[fallacy]

I don’t believe in paying for software, multimedia. I always find people so caught up in paying for all multimedia to be funny, and the ones that are open about there view on how it is wrong to be hilarious. Are you invested in this application, movie, song, game? No…

I have an aunt and uncle that love to collect DVD’s but will not make a copy of a DVD they rent because apparently that is against the law. What they will do is wait until they movie they want comes on HBO or something, and make a DVD from that. I’m like dude your paying more to rent the DVD in the first place, you think someone is going to kick down your door shouting “we here you have illegal copies of DVD in this house!”

My family has been getting into UFC fights lately. They were paying that $55 to watch the paper view live every month. I was like just give me one day after the fight and I will have the HD version downloaded and playing on my 60” TV. They were like “you can do that?”

[Well Fed Games]

Yeah, can you believe those suckers who want to get paid for their creative output? They are so stupid, what N00bZ!  I here you man, I here you loud and clear.

I don’t believe in paying for software, multimedia. I always find people so caught up in paying for all multimedia to be funny, and the ones that are open about there view on how it is wrong to be hilarious. Are you invested in this application, movie, song, game? No…

I have an ant and uncle that love to collect DVD’s but will not make a copy of a DVD they rent because apparently that is against the law. What they will do is wait until they movie they want comes on HBO or something, and make a DVD from that. I’m like dude your paying more to rent the DVD in the first place, you think someone is going to kick down your door shouting “we here you have illegal copies of DVD in this house!”

My family has been getting into UFC fights lately. They were paying that $55 to watch the paper view live every month. I was like just give me one day after the fight and I will have the HD version downloaded and playing on my 60” TV. They were like “you can do that?”

[wp34]

Yeah, can you believe those suckers who want to get paid for their creative output? They are so stupid, what N00bZ!  I here you man, I here you loud and clear.

I don’t believe in paying for software, multimedia. I always find people so caught up in paying for all multimedia to be funny, and the ones that are open about there view on how it is wrong to be hilarious. Are you invested in this application, movie, song, game? No…

I have an ant and uncle that love to collect DVD’s but will not make a copy of a DVD they rent because apparently that is against the law. What they will do is wait until they movie they want comes on HBO or something, and make a DVD from that. I’m like dude your paying more to rent the DVD in the first place, you think someone is going to kick down your door shouting “we here you have illegal copies of DVD in this house!”

My family has been getting into UFC fights lately. They were paying that $55 to watch the paper view live every month. I was like just give me one day after the fight and I will have the HD version downloaded and playing on my 60” TV. They were like “you can do that?”

I agree.  If we would all band together and stop paying for this stuff then those creative folks would stop making content.  What a better world we would be creating.

[Vigo]

Yeah, can you believe those suckers who want to get paid for their creative output? They are so stupid, what N00bZ!  I here you man, I here you loud and clear.

I don’t believe in paying for software, multimedia. I always find people so caught up in paying for all multimedia to be funny, and the ones that are open about there view on how it is wrong to be hilarious. Are you invested in this application, movie, song, game? No…

I have an ant and uncle that love to collect DVD’s but will not make a copy of a DVD they rent because apparently that is against the law. What they will do is wait until they movie they want comes on HBO or something, and make a DVD from that. I’m like dude your paying more to rent the DVD in the first place, you think someone is going to kick down your door shouting “we here you have illegal copies of DVD in this house!”

My family has been getting into UFC fights lately. They were paying that $55 to watch the paper view live every month. I was like just give me one day after the fight and I will have the HD version downloaded and playing on my 60” TV. They were like “you can do that?”

I agree.  If we would all band together and stop paying for this stuff then those creative folks would stop making content.  What a better world we would be creating.

No, they would just get a better business model than charging $55 a month to watch UFC.

[wp34]

Sounds like his family was willing and able to spend $55 on UFC until they were told they could download it for free.

[saint]

So, will you buy or steal the book I wrote? That's a rhetorical question, I really don't want the answer, but your stance is not a victimless crime. If someone pirates instead of buying my book, there's a dollar I don't get. One dollar. That's what I get... or not. It's a good thing I'm not trying to make a living off of it.

My second book is being pirated worse than the first was. I will not likely write a third edition. Too much work and not enough incentive for me to do so.

By the way, proceeds from the book help pay for this website.

I don’t believe in paying for software, multimedia. I always find people so caught up in paying for all multimedia to be funny, and the ones that are open about there view on how it is wrong to be hilarious. Are you invested in this application, movie, song, game? No…

I have an aunt and uncle that love to collect DVD’s but will not make a copy of a DVD they rent because apparently that is against the law. What they will do is wait until they movie they want comes on HBO or something, and make a DVD from that. I’m like dude your paying more to rent the DVD in the first place, you think someone is going to kick down your door shouting “we here you have illegal copies of DVD in this house!”

My family has been getting into UFC fights lately. They were paying that $55 to watch the paper view live every month. I was like just give me one day after the fight and I will have the HD version downloaded and playing on my 60” TV. They were like “you can do that?”

[fallacy]

I agree.  If we would all band together and stop paying for this stuff then those creative folks would stop making content.  What a better world we would be creating.

Maybe one day will live in a world were movies like X-Men: First Class are no longer made. I will do my part every day until that world comes about.  

[syph007]

I don’t believe in paying for software, multimedia. I always find people so caught up in paying for all multimedia to be funny, and the ones that are open about there their view on how it is wrong to be hilarious. Are you invested in this application, movie, song, game? No…

I have an ant aunt and uncle that love to collect DVD’s but will not make a copy of a DVD they rent because apparently that is against the law. What they will do is wait until they movie they want comes on HBO or something, and make a DVD from that. I’m like dude your paying more to rent the DVD in the first place, you think someone is going to kick down your door shouting “we here hear you have illegal copies of DVD in this house!”

My family has been getting into UFC fights lately. They were paying that $55 to watch the paper pay per view live every month. I was like just give me one day after the fight and I will have the HD version downloaded and playing on my 60” TV. They were like “you can do that?”

Unless paper view is actually one of those roll up LCD screen things like newspaper? Maybe $55 is good for that, I'm not sure. LOL  

[HaRuMaN]

[syph007]

My second book is being pirated worse than the first was. I will not likely write a third edition. Too much work and not enough incentive for me to do so.

Second book!?!? Man I've been out of the loop, I didn't know you wrote a second,  I only have the original. 

[Vigo]

Is piracy bad? Yes. Can it be stopped? No.

Pay-per-view worked well 20 years ago, there was no internet, VHS quality sucked, and it was a great outlet to get a movie or event on demand. Great business model.

Now that everything is available on a number of outlets, pay per view purchases are tanking. Is it the customer's fault for wanting a better and cheaper method of viewing, when everything else is better and cheaper now, or is it the provider's fault for only offering the match on an outdated, expensive platform?

[fallacy]

anyways that’s the world we live in. To me it is hard to make an argument that copying is stealing? If I did not copy it then who is to say I would spend the money to get it in the first place? At least if it was something that I like I could spread it through word of mouth and someone else might pay for it.

[Well Fed Games]

So far the excuses for theft seem to be, "some things are overpriced," "some movies are dumb," "crime happens, so we are collectively unable to think for ourselves," and "hey, I am doing them a favor by pirating! It is publicity!" This thread is making my day!

[Vigo]

So far the excuses for theft seem to be, "some things are overpriced," "some movies are dumb," "crime happens, so we are collectively unable to think for ourselves," and "hey, I am doing them a favor by pirating! It is publicity!" This thread is making my day!

Not at all. The point is that this is the future and the is no turning back. You cannot stop piracy. It will continue. The goal is to find those pirates who would have purchased the product if piracy was not a easier method, and offer them a reason to buy instead.

There are two types of pirates though. The first type would not pay for the product no matter what. Don't even consider them as revenue lost because there is nothing in the world that would convince them to make the purchase. If they couldn't get it for free, they wouldn't even touch it to begin with.

The second type is people who pirate because it is just easier and more beneficial to them to pirate rather than purchase. Those are the pirates that would be willing to purchase the product if there was incentive to do so. It is tough for content creators right now, because publishers and developers are often tied to business methods that offer no incentive for these people to make the purchase. People who have a reason to buy, will gladly do so. Rather than trying to get these people to buy, the publishers want to sue the pants off of these people, alienating potential fans and destroying the creators reputation in the process.

[Vigo]

Here is a good example of how piracy was successfully turned around and used as a method to promote sales:

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101021/10481211524/comic-book-pirated-on-4chan-author-joins-discussion-watches-sales-soar.shtml

[wp34]

There are two types of pirates though. The first type would not pay for the product no matter what. Don't even consider them as revenue lost because there is nothing in the world that would convince them to make the purchase. If they couldn't get it for free, they wouldn't even touch it to begin with.

The second type is people who pirate because it is just easier and more beneficial to them to pirate rather than purchase. Those are the pirates that would be willing to purchase the product if there was incentive to do so. It is tough for content creators right now, because publishers and developers are often tied to business methods that offer no incentive for these people to make the purchase. People who have a reason to buy, will gladly do so. Rather than trying to get these people to buy, the publishers want to sue the pants off of these people, alienating potential fans and destroying the creators reputation in the process.

I see what you are saying to a point.  I buy a heck of a lot more music now that I can pay Amazon one song at a time or pay $5 for an entire MP3 album.  But the original post by fallacy took a tone that anyone who pays for media is a fool.  That is what struck me as very odd world view.  I'm sure a lot of people feel this way I just was taken aback to see it in black and white.  

[Vigo]

Yep, Agreed. Fallacy is pretty shameless about the whole thing. Everyone should support content creators and pay for the products they use and would otherwise be willing to pay for. That's how I roll, and I think most of us here are the same way. 

[fallacy]

I see what you are saying to a point.  I buy a heck of a lot more music now that I can pay Amazon one song at a time or pay $5 for an entire MP3 album.  But the original post by fallacy took a tone that anyone who pays for media is a fool.  That is what struck me as very odd world view.  I'm sure a lot of people feel this way I just was taken aback to see it in black and white. 

That is what I meant  Spend your hard earned money on this that you cant download like hardware.

No I can see it as a convince paying for media instead of trying to get it for free. For me though it is not that much of an in convince anymore. Only thing I will pay for are things that I can’t figure out how to get for free which is not a lot anymore. When I was playing WOW I was paying for it, could not figure out how to log on with a free account.

I felt kind of dirty because for the first four UFC fights we watched I chipped in to pay for it. Why am I paying for this media? Was the thought the popped into my head eventually? They actually got 1 over on me. I felt like a sheep, I basically felt like one of you guys. Live and learn, live and learn.

[CheffoJeffo]

I felt like a sheep, I basically felt like one of you guys. Live and learn, live and learn.

What the ---fudgesicle--- are you talking about ?

I don't think anybody here is a sheep and certainly don't think you are some kind a rebel or brilliant technology guy (because even a stupid technology guy wouldn't brag about pirating on a public forum where his work email account is publicly available).

Paying fairly for things that you consume doesn't make you a sheep, although bragging about pirating everything you possibly can makes you an ass, especially when you are a person who creates for a living.

 

[fallacy]

What the ---fudgesicle--- are you talking about ?

I don't think anybody here is a sheep and certainly don't think you are some kind a rebel or brilliant technology guy (because even a stupid technology guy wouldn't brag about pirating on a public forum where his work email account is publicly available).

Paying fairly for things that you consume doesn't make you a sheep, although bragging about pirating everything you possibly can makes you an ass, especially when you are a person who creates for a living.

 Whap!

Is your avatar of a guy smoking pot? Do you smoke pot? If so you follow the laws you believe in and ignore the ones you find stupid. I don’t smoke pot but could care less to the people grow it, sell it, or smoke it.

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

Is your avatar of a guy smoking pot?

Mamma mia! LOL

[CheffoJeffo]

Is your avatar of a guy smoking pot? Do you smoke pot? If so you follow the laws you believe in and ignore the ones you find stupid. I don’t smoke pot but could care less to the people grow it, sell it, or smoke it.

Do you see me calling people who don't smoke pot sheep ?

* CheffoJeffo thinks that perhaps fallacy should download some episodes of the Muppet Show along with perhaps some remedial grammar and spelling tutorials.

 

[ark_ader]

If you download a copy of something protected- it is not copying.

The person who initiated the copying is a copier, thus the down loader is not copying anything.  If anything you are borrowing with the view to improve on the original.

Here ended the lesson.

The Curious Paradox of Copying and Creativity

[wp34]

* CheffoJeffo thinks that perhaps fallacy should download some episodes of the Muppet Show along with perhaps some remedial grammar and spelling tutorials.

 

 

[Malenko]

I felt kind of dirty because for the first four UFC fights we watched I chipped in to pay for it. Why am I paying for this media?

Here are some reasons you paid for it:

1)The Fighters dont fight for free
2)Arena rental isnt free
3)running the UFC isnt free
4)You wanted to see the fights


the list is too long to post.  What is it you do for a living fallacy?

[syph007]

Come on guys, we all know its ok to make a copy of a loaf of bread to feed your starving family.... or UFC fights...

[Xiaou2]

I have to agree with Malenko.

 Those guys are getting less and less intelligent, due to KO' and sleeper holds, and stupid as they may be, they are smart enough to get paid to do it.  (Even if half their income has been claimed by the system).

 I could care less about UFC, so I dont dl it.  There are things I pirate, but these things are things I never would pay for, or can not afford anyways.

 But, when I do appreciate something, even if Ive pirated it, I will go out and buy the stuff to support them (in most cases).   A prime example was Rollercoaster Tycoon.  Pirated it, LOVED IT, then went to buy the it at a retail store, in hopes of further releases, as well as to show my support for all the hard work and efforts that went into it.

 (Once they went full 3d, I bowed out. Very sad actually... cause the 2d versions are superior in every way)

 I cant say that Im an innocent angel.  But, I dont brag at what negative things Ive done.  I certainly wouldnt call non-pirates Sheep.

 In fact, Id be more inclined to call you a Sheep, because you clearly lack intelligence.

[GibsonRiddler]

Theft is theft...plain and simple. 

[CheffoJeffo]

I cant say that Im an innocent angel.  But, I dont brag at what negative things Ive done.  I certainly wouldnt call non-pirates Sheep.

 In fact, Id be more inclined to call you a Sheep, because you clearly lack intelligence.

* CheffoJeffo notices that Xiaou, Mal and he all agree and runs outside to watch for the four horsemen.

[Gatt]

So far the excuses for theft seem to be, "some things are overpriced," "some movies are dumb," "crime happens, so we are collectively unable to think for ourselves," and "hey, I am doing them a favor by pirating! It is publicity!" This thread is making my day!

Not at all. The point is that this is the future and the is no turning back. You cannot stop piracy. It will continue. The goal is to find those pirates who would have purchased the product if piracy was not a easier method, and offer them a reason to buy instead.

There are two types of pirates though. The first type would not pay for the product no matter what. Don't even consider them as revenue lost because there is nothing in the world that would convince them to make the purchase. If they couldn't get it for free, they wouldn't even touch it to begin with.

The second type is people who pirate because it is just easier and more beneficial to them to pirate rather than purchase. Those are the pirates that would be willing to purchase the product if there was incentive to do so. It is tough for content creators right now, because publishers and developers are often tied to business methods that offer no incentive for these people to make the purchase. People who have a reason to buy, will gladly do so. Rather than trying to get these people to buy, the publishers want to sue the pants off of these people, alienating potential fans and destroying the creators reputation in the process.

Actually,  they can stop it,  and they will in the not too distant future.

Piracy is wholely dependent on P2P to reach the scale it's at.  The bendwidth costs to do the same thing without P2P would be exorborant at the scale we're talking about.  P2P has a definitive traffic pattern,  normal internet use doesn't load both Upload and Download pipes in parallel for extended periods,  not at the scale P2P does.  It either uses one or the other,  or uses both but at a smaller scale where the upload/downloads are comparable in size (For video conferencing and gaming).  All they have to do is watch for the distinctive pattern.  Sure,  you could scale back your speeds,  but the same end result is achieved,  now it's so slow as to be unusable.

As to the second type of people you talk about,  the product is the incentive.  They wouldn't be pirating it if they didn't want it.  If they couldn't pirate it,  they wouldn't need a "Prize" to buy it,  they'd still buy it,  just like they did for the millenia prior to P2P.  The whole "It's the (System, quality, price, etc) that makes it not worth buying!" thing is a self-justification for participating in an activity they know is wrong.

[Xiaou2]

Xiaou2 believes the Hell will FREEZE over when Cheffo stops inserting useless personal attacking commentary... rather than posting Arcade related, non-personal things.

[Ginsu Victim]

To me it is hard to make an argument that copying is stealing? If I did not copy it then who is to say I would spend the money to get it in the first place? At least if it was something that I like I could spread it through word of mouth and someone else might pay for it.

AHEM....

My family has been getting into UFC fights lately. They were paying that $55 to watch the paper view live every month. I was like just give me one day after the fight and I will have the HD version downloaded and playing on my 60” TV. They were like “you can do that?”

[Hoopz]

Xiaou2 believes the Hell will FREEZE over when Cheffo stops inserting useless personal attacking commentary... rather than posting Arcade related, non-personal things.

Take it easy Francis.

[lastrega]

this is a complex issue, on one hand I agree , theft is theft..... however I also feel that once an artist or copywrite holder , makes the manufaturing cost, plus a good profit, then sharing old dated material should be ok.   just my 2 cents.

for example: I am sure EVERYONE here has Namco "Pac-Man" on thier cabs right? Of course you do....... did EVERYHERE pay for REAL PC board to make the dump...... some may have, I bought it years ago and got robbed in the process ( another story, another time).  Most however got from {censored by saint - no ROMs sites please} and someother rom site...... I don't feel that is wrong if you did get that way........ mainly because Namco made over 40 mill the first year the darn game, and has made over 200 million in re-releases ever since........ so if somone gets the 38kb materpiece now , I don't think it will hurt namcos chance of making sure thier familys eat at night....... On the same side however........ it is wrong to steal La noir...... Rockstar has not made thiere ends yet, however in five or 6 years, I think they should lighten up a little,
... any way there is no real correct MORAL answer , but to say stealing is stealing....... but there are many HUMAN variants that make this issue, highly debatable....... As it has been since the rise of the internet in 1993?

( the views of Madison Lastrega do reflect the views of this forum or any other of its affiliates....... and should be taken as, for what they are... OPINIONS, and are by the way like ---uvulas---, we all have them and not matter what you think they all stink, are at least somtimes.... )

[Xiaou2]

Ill just say this...

 That there are many things that are Legal, but are not Moral or Right.

 This world is full of colors and shades... Its not just Black and White.

 Every time I see a  B/W  post or reply , (which sadly seems to be more and more often)
I fear dearly for the future.

 Hitlers rise to power, was by use of a phony terrorist attack, exploiting weak minds with their fears guiding them, and their inability to differentiate what was "Really" right or wrong (rather than instructed, or written as Law).

[lilshawn]

[ark_ader]

By the way, proceeds from the book help pay for this website.

So this site is probably $99.96 for every 3 years including Domain & SMF (free).

Advertisements and book - $99.96 = profit$.

Not bad at all Saint! 

[saint]

By the way, proceeds from the book help pay for this website.

So this site is probably $99.96 for every 3 years including Domain & SMF (free).

Advertisements and book - $99.96 = profit$.

Not bad at all Saint! 

--cream-filled twinkie--. You missed the word "help." People like you make me wonder sometimes why I bother. The server is $1100 or so a year.

[Hoopz]

Throw the man some bones if you find value from the site please.  A couple of different ways to do that:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=75962.0

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108709.40

[Dan_Dan_91_07]

 

Man, the whole "I would see the order, but not who ordered it" convo, in the second link, is hilarious! LOL

[CheffoJeffo]

Xiaou2 believes the Hell will FREEZE over when Cheffo stops inserting useless personal attacking commentary... rather than posting Arcade related, non-personal things.

Xiaou2 also believes in DeathTrains(tm) ...

 

[Xiaou2]

So, rather than admit you are a useless Tool,  you insist on deRailing a thread.

Typical.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Get it right ToeStabber, I am a worthless button pusher.

 

[lilshawn]

EVERYBODY HOLD ON!



I'M SENDING IN MORE TRAINS!

CHOOO CHOOO!!!

[ark_ader]

By the way, proceeds from the book help pay for this website.

So this site is probably $99.96 for every 3 years including Domain & SMF (free).

Advertisements and book - $99.96 = profit$.

Not bad at all Saint! 

--cream-filled twinkie--. You missed the word "help." People like you make me wonder sometimes why I bother. The server is $1100 or so a year.

Jeepers! Who is hosting you?

[CheffoJeffo]

Uh, ark ... have a look at the dedicated server pricing, which starts at over $2K. 

[ark_ader]

Uh, ark ... have a look at the dedicated server pricing, which starts at over $2K. 

Yes pricey. 

[DaveMMR]

My friend, who makes close to $90K/yr. with no kids, wife, mortgage, etc., pretty much pirated every single XBox 360 game out there - and BluRays as well.  He brags about it all the time, but he's not aware that everyone's calling him a "cheapskate ---uvula---" behind his back. 

Here's my stance and I'll leave it alone: If you pirate, don't brag about it.  Because one day you're going to meet that one person who is affected by piracy (e.g. musicians, authors, film crew, Saint), and they're going to make you look like a dick.

[emphatic]

shitcock

Time to update the swear-filter me thinks.

Is your avatar of a guy smoking pot?

Mine is.

[clok]

Trailer Park boys to the rescue... sad thing is they are almost a carbon copy of my life in the 80's.. and beyond..     Didi you check him out in HOBO WITH A SHOTGUN    pretty funny too.

[clok]

damn trailer Prk boys derailed me.

Piracy is pretty simple to me. If it has value Key word here,  and people charge for it and I take it for free when I DONT OWN IT I probely did something wrong. Most people use the exscuse they would never have bought it, so having it and enjoying it doesnt effect the original person.. if it had no value to you why did you take it? It had VALUE to you or you would not have bothered. So I guess that should mean you felt it was worth less than they wanted... the solution to that (before digtial media) was pretty cut and dried. I want a steak, place A charges $30, i think its to much, I DONT EAT IT!!!!  thats how its been done for years, I didnt like the price I didnt buy it. wait a sec... digtial media has no "substance" its not the orginal, if i just take it, nobody will not get one becuase i have that copy, nobody will lose money as there is no value to it.

good thing Drug companies, inventors dont think that.. THOUGHTS/ IDEAS have no substance, so in this "free if there is nobody being deprived" world they should just research and use that brilliant mind to solve problems for free..  making Music or movies takes time, skill (well... not so much in some movies and music) things that have nothing you hold in your hand have been giving value since long before digital... the only thing Digital has done as made it excedingly simple to "STEAL" value with pretty much zero risk. poeple have been selling stuff that has no "solid" value for a long time. Rental on equipment, babysitting, consulting.

I think the easy way to look at it. YOUR TIME, if you work all day shoveling cow dung and the end of the day they say THANKS and you figured you where going to get paid you would be mad.  Poeple how make musci/movies/games all want to get paid at the end of the day too. 

[Vigo]

Most people use the exscuse they would never have bought it, so having it and enjoying it doesnt effect the original person.. if it had no value to you why did you take it? It had VALUE to you or you would not have bothered. So I guess that should mean you felt it was worth less than they wanted... the solution to that (before digtial media) was pretty cut and dried. I want a steak, place A charges $30, i think its to much, I DONT EAT IT!!!!  thats how its been done for years, I didnt like the price I didnt buy it. wait a sec... digtial media has no "substance" its not the orginal, if i just take it, nobody will not get one becuase i have that copy, nobody will lose money as there is no value to it.

Piracy can have a major positive impact on a product. Think about Adobe Photoshop for a second. A commercial program that for years was wildly pirated, yet now it is common lingo with anybody computer literate. Adobe seemed to do very little about people pirating their software for many years, as long as commercial users paid for the program. Now every Tom, Dick and Harry who pirated the program back in the 90's as kid exclusively uses Photoshop (and subsequently premiere, illustrator, indesign, etc.) Now if Adobe was efficient at stopping piracy from day 1, nobody would have dared pay the $1000 price tag the program used to cost, the program would not be nearly successful, the kids who grew up using photoshop were inspired enough to go in to graphic design and use this program with their own business. Because of photoshop and the rampant piracy, there are graphic designers everywhere. It's no coincidence.

Of course this is not a justification of piracy, but rather pointing out the nature of the climate today. Just because an item has value doesn't set price. The cost and value are separate and do not dictate each other. Piracy is inevitable, and can actually be a powerful tool if harnessed. You cannot think of digital media in the same sense as a $30 steak. You have only the one steak, but you have a potentially infinite number of photoshops out there.

I think the easy way to look at it. YOUR TIME, if you work all day shoveling cow dung and the end of the day they say THANKS and you figured you where going to get paid you would be mad.  Poeple how make musci/movies/games all want to get paid at the end of the day too.  

I can only wish that any of the crappy short films I made were good enough to be pirated. Right now, it fits in that "shoveled cow dung that nobody wants to pay for" category. For all the artists that don't get paid for their work, welcome to the world of being an artist. Van Gogh and countless other artists had the same problem; it's nothing new to the 21st century.

[emphatic]

I've heard a pretty good argument against downloading games, music, etc a while back I didn't consider before:

MAME for example gives you literary thousands of games to play, so if you only play these you have less time to consume other media. The same goes for everything that we can easily get from the Internet and all of the YouTube clips etc.

I only play games in my cabinet (360 arcade ports), but I still feel I haven't had the time I feel that I need to put into each game to feel it's worth having. If I had just downloaded the games, I'd feel even less satisfied with each game.

I know that I over-consume stuff like TV shows and movies, which leaves very little time to play games, create music etc. This is a real downer for me, and I'm pretty much pro-download.

[DaveMMR]

Piracy can have a major positive impact on a product. Think about Adobe Photoshop for a second. A commercial program that for years was wildly pirated, yet now it is common lingo with anybody computer literate. Adobe seemed to do very little about people pirating their software for many years, as long as commercial users paid for the program. Now every Tom, Dick and Harry who pirated the program back in the 90's as kid exclusively uses Photoshop (and subsequently premiere, illustrator, indesign, etc.) Now if Adobe was efficient at stopping piracy from day 1, nobody would have dared pay the $1000 price tag the program used to cost, the program would not be nearly successful, the kids who grew up using photoshop were inspired enough to go in to graphic design and use this program with their own business. Because of photoshop and the rampant piracy, there are graphic designers everywhere. It's no coincidence.

That is a valid point - Photoshop would not be as popular today if it weren't for piracy.  But it is interesting to add that Adobe is actively FIGHTING the use of the word "Photoshop" to mean digital editing of photos lest it becomes genericized and exploited by competitors and legal protection of said trademark lost (Aspirin, Dumpster, Thermos, Zipper and Yo-Yo were all trademarked at one time).  So it is quite possible that an Adobe CEO may have a different opinion on its popularity.  To him/her, not only was their software pirated by non-professionals, but their brand name is actually being threatened.

For all the artists that don't get paid for their work, welcome to the world of being an artist. Van Gogh and countless other artists had the same problem; it's nothing new to the 21st century.

Actually it is, if you're talking about music.  Yes, people were taping songs off the radio or dubbing their friend's cassettes, but record sales were relatively healthy until the dawn of the 21st century (when Napster was at its peak).  Nowadays, artists get paid by just selling their songs directly to the fans.  But even when they do something unique, like offer an entire album for whatever you want to pay - down to a penny (Radiohead's "In Rainbows") - people still stole it.  

[Donkbaca]

Meh, the record company ripped us off for a good two decades because of CD's.  Hey, I know you already bought this album as a casette, and as a record, but you need to buy it AGAIN as a cd, oh and its going to be 3 times as expensive because cd's are so much more expensive.  That's essentially the line they fed us for the 80's and half of the 90's.  Liar, liar, pants on fire!  The focus went from putting together a bunch of good songs to create an album to putting a couple of good songs on a cd, you push the hell out of one or two songs and then you charge someone 15-20 bucks and make them buy the whole cd just for that one song.  When the public found out how cheap it actually was to make cd's, the record company didn't budge.  Held us hostage.  You want to own this one song?  Pay 20 bucks for the whole album sucka!  

I used to feel guilty about downloading music, but now I just don't.  If you like an artist, go see them in concert, they get a bigger cut of their show money than they do record sales anyway. Besides, I work every day for my money.  It would be sweet if someone like, recorded one weeks worth of work from me, and then I could just replay it over and over and get paid for it.  Why should someone like Neil Diamond STILL be making money of a song he recorded 20 years ago?

[emphatic]

Meh, the record company ripped us off for a good two decades because of CD's.  Hey, I know you already bought this album as a casette, and as a record, but you need to buy it AGAIN as a cd, oh and its going to be 3 times as expensive because cd's are so much more expensive.  That's essentially the line they fed us for the 80's and half of the 90's.  Liar, liar, pants on fire!  The focus went from putting together a bunch of good songs to create an album to putting a couple of good songs on a cd, you push the hell out of one or two songs and then you charge someone 15-20 bucks and make them buy the whole cd just for that one song.  When the public found out how cheap it actually was to make cd's, the record company didn't budge.  Held us hostage.  You want to own this one song?  Pay 20 bucks for the whole album sucka!  

I used to feel guilty about downloading music, but now I just don't.  If you like an artist, go see them in concert, they get a bigger cut of their show money than they do record sales anyway. Besides, I work every day for my money.  It would be sweet if someone like, recorded one weeks worth of work from me, and then I could just replay it over and over and get paid for it.  Why should someone like Neil Diamond STILL be making money of a song he recorded 20 years ago?

In Sweden we have special taxes on empty media that goes towards the recording industry, or as I like to call 'em, the mob. They collect on all empty CD-R discs, and now even hdd's etc, but it's STILL illegal to download stuff even though they get paid for media that in many, many cases doesn't even end up containing copyrighted stuff. They fail to understand technology progress when it puts money in their pockets for sure.

[CheffoJeffo]

Meh, the record company ripped us off for a good two decades because of CD's.  Hey, I know you already bought this album as a casette, and as a record, but you need to buy it AGAIN as a cd, oh and its going to be 3 times as expensive because cd's are so much more expensive.

The fact that you failed to recognize the value of the Maxell XL-IIs aside (really, who bought both the album and the cassette   ), your argument for pirating music today is that the record companies held a gun to your head to make you buy CDs 20 years ago (and, really, who was forced to replace their albums and cassettes with CDs  ), when every one of your complaints has not been an issue in quite a while ? 

Besides, I work every day for my money.  It would be sweet if someone like, recorded one weeks worth of work from me, and then I could just replay it over and over and get paid for it.  Why should someone like Neil Diamond STILL be making money of a song he recorded 20 years ago?

Was your work performed as work-for-hire or do you own the end product ?

I still get paid for the use of work I created a decade ago -- because I own the rights to the product. If I did that work for somebody else and received a salary, then I would have no such rights. I didn't, hence I should still get paid while that work has value in the market. Same goes for Neil Diamond.

[Donkbaca]

I am just saying I have no sympathy for the music industry.

You are right, its all about markets.   I buy some stuff, I download some stuff.  I don't feel bad about downloading the stuff I do. I just don't. In fact if I had to PAY for some of the stuff I download, I just wouldn't have it at all.  That's price discrimination and how effiecient markets work.  We all have different price points for different goods.


Then there is the whole argument that copyrights discourage innovation, but I am on the fence about that one.