4-way, 8-way & 49,360 7 optical joysticks

[matt.e]

well... hi,

Wondering what the difference is, within MAME, between the different types of arcade joystick...

does a 4 way go 8 ways if up and right are pressed?

how easy are 360 pos. joysticks to wire into a control?

any info for... well lets just sey an idiot, would be greatfully receved.

WELL, OK, GETTING A LITTLE OFF-TOPIC HERE. LETS FORGET 49 WAY STICKS FOR NOW

matt.e

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[SirPoonga]

4-way:  Only four directions allowed, up/down/left/right
8-way: Add diagonals to 4-way (will hit up and right at the same time
49-way: No way to interface with a computer, the three mame games that use a 49=way, one has an analog joystick hack (sinistar), the other two(pigskin/archrivals)don't.  But uRebel and I put analog support into those two in Analog+ mame.
Prefect 360: it has a 5v, grd, up, down, left, right pins.

[Lilwolf]

after looking at the code for adding the analog hack...

whats the chance that you could add support for a true 49way controller if someone hooked each connector to a key?

Its a 7x7 grid right?  Each a boolean micro switch of some nature I believe...

So it's 3 values of up.. and 3 values of down...  3 values for left and 3 for right.

So if we could find a way to connect them to an encoder.  That would be 12 connectors per joystick.

So after looking at the code (do you remember?) did you take the analog input and connect them to the 12 inputs?  So if you had the 12 inputs, you could just plug them in directly?

[Howard_Casto]

I was around when they were working on this hack, so I can answer most of your questions...

I believe they used a case statement polling the input from the stick and dividing it into 3 levels.  There actually are 49 inputs in there and it would be possible to activate them.  

But what exactly would be the point?  Nobody is going to be crazy enough to make an interface that would have 49 inputs (it could be hacked into 12, but still).

Joysticks work quite well, you can plug in an old playstation gamepad or n64 stick and immediately notice that it's exactly like the old 49 way but easier to interface.  The only trick would be finding (or hacking) analog sticks that look like 49 way sticks.  

[Grasshopper]

It should be possible to make an interface for a 49 way joystick by using the ButtonBox encoder as a starting point and modifying the code.

It would certainly involve a lot of work but it would open up all sorts of possibilities. For example you could have a joystick that is 4/8 way switchable through software.

It probably wouldn't work as well in 4 way mode as a proper 4 way with a diamond shaped restrictor but it would be better than flipping over the actuator on a Happ Super.

[Howard_Casto]

but your forgetting... keyboards only have about 100 keys and many of those keys are function keys for mame.  (all the funtion keys, ~ through = on the top row, tab, ect)


49 inputs would more than take all of the "normal" keys on the keyboard and then you wouldn't have anything left for buttons, ect.  

So yes you technically could use a keyboard encoder, but then you would cripple all functionality for other games.  

[u_rebelscum]

Here's the 411:

49-way sticks have 11 pins, two of which are ground, one power, and eight "direction" pins (4 for up/down, 4 for left/right).  The "direction" pins are binary on/off, but each axis is not treated as a 4 bit data (more info why, below).

There are 3 sensors per axis, each sensor has its own "tooth".  Each tooth is fairly wide, and is placed so a different tooth will covered or uncover at a different point in the movement.  Each sensor's reading is "directly" output to one of the pins, a zero if the tooth blocks the sensor for pigskin/archrivals/midway game, but a one if the tooth covers the sensor for sinistar.  The forth pin for each axis notes which side the of center the stick in on.  The "seven" possible outputs for each axis is (pigskin/archrival shown):

0111   left or up
0011  
0001
1000   center (logically the same as "0000" )
1100
1110
1111   right or down


The first digit is from the "non-sensor, side" pin, the other three are the sensor pins.  There are two valid "center" outputs, because the "side" pin flips when the stick passes center, so the output for an axis will be "1000" is the stick moved to center from one side, and "0000" if moved from the other.

If it's not clear how the "counting" works, picture one really wide tooth and three sensors right next to each other.  The tooth starting on the far "left" side ("0 111", "0 111" for left, "0 111" for the sensors) does not block any sensors.  As it moves toward center, it first blocks the left-most sensor ("0 011"), then the next ("0 001").  When it blocks all three ("x 000"), it is in the center.  It continues moving, unblocking the left-most sensor first ("1 100"), and flipping the side pin to "1", in the process.  It continues moving,  ("1 110") & ("1 111"), finally stopping at the far "right" side.

(Yes, if you move the stick so fast from far left to far right that the the sensors don't see it, and stop at the far right, the stick will still think it's on the far left side. )

So, to map a 49way directly to mame, you'd need 4 "buttons" per axis, 2 axes per player, 2 players per game (4 if you count dark legacy, ect, not emu'ed yet), or 16 digital inputs compared to 4 for a normal 4 or 8 way joystick.  This is very do-able hardware-wise.

I could add in direct support for this it into mame if anyone wants.  The way I picture this is on a per game basis.

There always is the "49way to hall effect" board ref'ed to from here sometimes.  That should really be called "49way to analog" so people don't think it won't work on PCs, but I didn't design the circuit so I don't get to name it. [shrug]

[JODY]

The 360's were faster and easier to wire up than my 4 and 8 ways because there are 2 fewer wires.  Instead of a ground to each direction there is one common ground wire.  Wired them to a KeyWiz.

[Howard_Casto]

Eeek rebel. Sorry for the mis-info.  

So what your saying is

A.  It only takes 8 inputs per stick.  

B.  49 Way joysticks are terribly inaccurate.  


I think I'll stick to my original opinion then.  Why go to the trouble of using a 49 way when an analog stick works so much better?

[u_rebelscum]

Eeek rebel. Sorry for the mis-info.  

No problem.  I remember trying to understand the suckers quite well, after all the nights saying, "huh?".

So what your saying is

A.  It only takes 8 inputs per stick.  

Yes.  Thanks, I wasn't clear about that.

B.  49 Way joysticks are terribly inaccurate.  

I'd say "terribly imprecise."  ( My dad was an English freak; sorry about bringing the "accuracy vs precision" argument here.)

I think I'll stick to my original opinion then.  Why go to the trouble of using a 49 way when an analog stick works so much better?

I agree that an analog stick is a better all around solution.  But ask Xiaou2 and he'll tell you about "the feel" of the sinistar 49-way.  

[shrug]  I'd look into adding suport for it, but only if someone wants it.

[Lilwolf]

I would LOVE to get a few.... But I don't own any 49ways, and I have a TON of controllers that I haven't hacked into a control panel.

So don't do it for me!  But I would LOVE to see foodfight, sinister, ect..

But if you add suport... You realize my ebay bills will start to rise again

[crsdawg]

i'd also like to see 49 way support in  relevent games. i sure would love to play sinistar with the right joystick again.

how many other games are there that use these. the ones i know of are sinistar, blaster, foodfight(which i didn't know about before), gauntlet(?),  and blitz 99. i did a search on klov and didn't come up with much.

[hooded_paladin]

gauntlet and gauntlet 2 use 8-ways.  Gauntlet Legends uses 49-ways

[matt.e]

What about a PSX analog control hack for a happ perfect 360 joystick... just an idea.

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matt.e -- author of topic

[Xiaou2]

 While some may have an old sinistar stick on ebay..  its actually a rarity.   Also, even if you get hold of ONE - you probably have to replace the rubber center, and replace optos.    

  And then... theres the people that might butcher an existing working sinistar just to get the stick : (

  Theres only one place that I know makes 49 way sticks... and they feel completely different from the classic ones we grew up with.  

  Happs 49 way uses a spring to return to center... instead of the rubber spider design that the classics like sinistar uses.  

  The difference is monumental.   With the spider - you are fighting 4 legs at once, and each one being further away from the next makes the force amplify greatly the further you go.   Its like the difference between a gas pedal and a brake pedal.  

  With the spider,  its hard to push the stick to the outter edge - much as hard as is to slam the brake to the floor.   Thus, its easy to stay at low speeds to collect the gems, yet by pressing hard - go to mach 5 in a second! : )

  With the new spring 49 ways... the force is equal no matter where you are - so it acts like a gas pedal.  However... the car your driving is like a nitros cycle and so sensative to change that a small millimeter movment on the throttle will send it to 250mph in 1 second!    Since its so easy to move the stick - you end up not being able to control the beast accuratly in slow speeds.

   While it would be nice for a 49 way interface... I think it would be good only if someone like oscar could rebuild the original stick to spec so that it felt and controlled apprpriately... else forget it.

   Your next best option for a good feel sinistar stick - is to hack an analog with a rubber spider system as seen on my page:   http://xiaou2.homestead.com/arcade.html





original sinistar stick shown below




  Im sorry but I dont have the time or resources to build these for others : (    But Id be glad to answer questions on construction of them.  They take some time, but arnt impossible to make.  And the control is so good youll cry!  
(and wonder why all analog controllers arnt like this!)

[hooded_paladin]

What about a PSX analog control hack for a happ perfect 360 joystick...
matt.e

You're thinking the wrong thing.  A Perfect 360 sounds like it's an analog joystick, but it's not.  It's like a normal 4/8 way joystick but with optical sensors instead of microswitches.

[u_rebelscum]

What about a PSX analog control hack for a happ perfect 360 joystick...
matt.e

You're thinking the wrong thing.  A Perfect 360 sounds like it's an analog joystick, but it's not.  It's like a normal 4/8 way joystick but with optical sensors instead of microswitches.

Right.  The "360" in "perfect 360" is the shape of movement, as in "360 degree circle".  It's named that, I think, to say it's not diamond, square, or other shape movement, but a circle.  It is not a 360 position stick.

matt.e, read the oscar controls review of the 360 for a lot of good info on it.


Every 49-way'er, I'll look into adding 49-way support within one or two versions of analog+, hopefully.

[SirPoonga]

FYI, the only games in mame, as uRebel indicated, is pigskin/archrivl/sinistar.  Sinistar already had an analog hack in the driver, archrivl/pigskin didn't.  uRebel and I added that to Analog+.  Arch Rivals is cool

Food Fight does not use a 49-way.  I looked at the manual for the game.  It uses what it calls a Gimbal stick.  It's just an analog stick with an interesting way or turning the pots.  Page 3-8 of the manual has an exploded view, the final page has some information on lubricating it.

[matt.e]

Can a ''Analog Joystick with Ultimate Handle'' or similar stick from HAPP CONTROLS be used in a PSX control hack?

[SirPoonga]

That's possible, or hook it directly to the gameport.

[matt.e]

the inside of my PSX pad looks somthing like this;

per analog stick,

3 pins for X axis
3 pins for Y axis
4 pins for ? possibly the button?
 ________
l     o o o   l
l  o            l
l  o   o o    l
l  o   o o    l
l________l

can you or anyone help me to connect an analog joystick [HAPP] to it.
Does a HAPP use 3 pins per axis?

thanks,


matt.e
author of topic