Critique another panel layout anyone?

[JoyMonkey]

Okay then. I've put together a handful of Mame cabs over the last few years, but for some reason I've never ventured any further than plain old joystick controls.

I just bought a 3" Happ trackball and I'm determined to fit it into a nice little single player panel. I'm thinking of maybe making a little table-top unit, like the ones on lunacade.com - but it has to include the trackball.

I've gone with a weird 6-button layout and stuck a joystick in for good measure. Does anyone think the joystick might hinder the use of the trackball? Do I need more room above the trackball (it won't be used for GoldenTee, just classics)?

[SirPoonga]

(it won't be used for GoldenTee, just classics)?

Hehe, you might have seen my post, "classics" are a small percentage of tball games.
Anyway, the joystick won't get in the way too much on the side.  BTW, the tball will double has a makeshift spinner

Anyway, that is a weird button layout.  For 6 button games I don't see it useful, especially fighters.

[grafixmonkey]

I assume you play fighter games now and then since there are 6 buttons, right?  I think I'd end up being confused which was which if I used the default layout, and for normal 2 or 3 button games my palm would be hitting buttons 5 and 6 when I was playing with buttons 1 and 2.

Also, if you put the trackball to the right of the buttons, you'd have more space between it and the joystick.  I don't know which handedness you like, but I usually play with my right hand on the trackball and my left on the buttons.

but, that's just what I like.  

[SirPoonga]

Also, if you put the trackball to the right of the buttons, you'd have more space between it and the joystick.  I don't know which handedness you like, but I usually play with my right hand on the trackball and my left on the buttons.

but, that's just what I like.  

Good point, as that is what alot of tball games did.

[JoyMonkey]

I assume you play fighter games now and then since there are 6 buttons, right?  I think I'd end up being confused which was which if I used the default layout, and for normal 2 or 3 button games my palm would be hitting buttons 5 and 6 when I was playing with buttons 1 and 2.

Also, if you put the trackball to the right of the buttons, you'd have more space between it and the joystick.  I don't know which handedness you like, but I usually play with my right hand on the trackball and my left on the buttons.

but, that's just what I like.  

Actually I very rarely play fighter games at all. My previous panels have all had 3 button layouts so I thought I might try out six for a change.
You do have a good point, I guess the lower buttons would get accidentally hit all the time.
Maybe I'll cut the two lowest buttons out.

I'm afraid that if I put the buttons between the ball and the stick, it'll feel a little too squeezed when playing joystick games.
Perhaps I should just add a couple of inches to the panel and go back to the drawing board...

[hooded_paladin]

I don't think there's a good reason to add six buttons VERTICALLY.  If you ever play a six button game, the lower rows will piss you off.  If you don't, the upper rows will never get used.  2x2 would be a good layout if you never play fighting games, unless you can think of a game you like that uses more than 4.

[SirPoonga]

If you don't play fighters you probably don't need 6 buttons.  Anyway, it would be boring to play fighters single person anyway  I'd just put 4 buttons on.

[JoyMonkey]

Here's a quick revision.

I've kept the six buttons (you never know, I might want to play fighter games again someday). And because buttons 1,2 & 3 are beside each other it'll make playing Missile Command a bit simpler.

Missile Command is the main reason for my trackball envy.

[u_rebelscum]

If you are going to use the happs 3" mount plate, it is 6.5" square, the same as the height of your CP.  Which would mean you'd need to center the TB vertically.

FWIW, you can overlap some of the button's "skirt" over the TB mounting plate if you counter sink the plate level to the rest of the CP (I've done this).  The button holes should be outside the mounting plate, unless you plan to drill through the edge of the plate.

I'm pretty sure you can mount the joystick partially underlapping the TB mounting plate, too, but I haven't tried this.

Of couse, if you aren't going to use the mounting plate, then you can ignore everything above.

For trackball games, you only need 3 buttons (missle command), but spinner games and joystick games you plan to play may need four.  I agree that six vertical is too crowded.

EDIT:
you posted the new edition just as I was going to post this, so instead of edditing the above, I'll just add below.

I like this new layout better, but remember the 6.5" mounting plate.

You might want to arch your buttons instead of slanting left, so it won't feel funny when playing trackball games, plus missle command had the buttons arched.

[paigeoliver]

Here's a quick revision.

I've kept the six buttons (you never know, I might want to play fighter games again someday). And because buttons 1,2 & 3 are beside each other it'll make playing Missile Command a bit simpler.

Missile Command is the main reason for my trackball envy.

It is not possible to get your buttons close enough to the stick for it to feel cramped on a single player panel. Although balltops are more comfortable with very close buttons than bat handle sticks are.

My old Cherry Master Mame cabinet had a similar controls layout.

It was like this.

4-way,8-way,6 buttons,trackball, start buttons.

The 4-way and 8-way were mounted with the bases 1/8" apart, and the buttons were almost touching the base of both the joystick and the trackball.

[grafixmonkey]

I just thought I'd add, I'm pretty sure the trackball plate is necessary.  I can't think of a way to mount one without it.  (in case that's what you were thinking.)  Unless of course, you're mounting into a metal panel - then I think it's fine without it.  If you need a few inches, try the top three buttons more above the bottom three instead of at the angle.  It'd shave an inch or two off the size of the button area.  

and I agree with Paige, you'd have to get your buttons so close to the side of your joystick that you'd have trouble with wiring, before it'd be cramped.  My panel feels spacious, and has them only an inch or so from the joystick base.

Also, you can probably add a spinner without much effort, or even use the trackball as a "ghetto-spinner" (it really would not feel all that bad - better than a mouse, which is decent.).  If you do, a top-fire-button joystick would let you play games like tron and tempest, and an Oscar restrictor would still let you play 4-way games.  (I think it would work with TFB joysticks...   not sure.)

[JoyMonkey]

Here's another one, shortened down a bit and buttons arranged in U_RebelScum style.

I've got access to a CNC router that I've been meaning to try out, so this will be a metal control panel. If it's metal I don't think there's any need to worry about the mounting plate, is there?

I was also thinking of putting a button-top joystick on it, probably the Wico one here: http://www.wicothesource.com/new2/pages/page88.htm

Also, do you think you could play RoboTron using the joystick for direction and the trackball to fire?

I don't think I'll add a spinner, if I did I'd have to go over 7" wide with the panel, else it'd be just too cramped. I'm sure the trackball will do fine for spinner games.

[paigeoliver]

Here's another one, shortened down a bit and buttons arranged in U_RebelScum style.

I've got access to a CNC router that I've been meaning to try out, so this will be a metal control panel. If it's metal I don't think there's any need to worry about the mounting plate, is there?

I was also thinking of putting a button-top joystick on it, probably the Wico one here: http://www.wicothesource.com/new2/pages/page88.htm

Also, do you think you could play RoboTron using the joystick for direction and the trackball to fire?

I don't think I'll add a spinner, if I did I'd have to go over 7" wide with the panel, else it'd be just too cramped. I'm sure the trackball will do fine for spinner games.

Nope, you can't play Robotron with joystick and trackball. It doesn't work with mouse controls (ie, mouse, trackball, spinner).

You won't need a plate if the panel is metal. My (nearly identical to yours) similar panel was metal, and had the trackball without a plate.

If you added 2" to the size of your panel you could squeeze in another joystick to the right of the trackball, which would give you some hot Robotron action. I used to regularly play Robotron on my panel like that using the 8-way and 4-way that were right next to each other (it was better than nothing).

[pathdoc2]

I like you layout on your last post.  I think I'll use something similiar on my next machine but I'll add a player 2 joystick and at least one button for player 2 so you can play 2 player joust.   Also, I probably add a 4 way joystick just north of the trackball.

[Howard_Casto]

I think you are going to have to use mini start buttons and move them elsewhere.  That joystick is a little low.  In my experience you can butt the buttons almost right against the joystick.  The condition to this is you have to have the stick above the bottom row of buttons for gameplay to be comfortable.  If it's below like you have it, manipulating the stick and buttons at once feels a bit akward.  

[Minwah]

I think you are going to have to use mini start buttons and move them elsewhere.  That joystick is a little low.  In my experience you can butt the buttons almost right against the joystick.  The condition to this is you have to have the stick above the bottom row of buttons for gameplay to be comfortable.  If it's below like you have it, manipulating the stick and buttons at once feels a bit akward.  

I agree, I think you may need a bit more space below the stick to rest your hand comfortably.

[JoyMonkey]

I think you are going to have to use mini start buttons and move them elsewhere.  That joystick is a little low.  In my experience you can butt the buttons almost right against the joystick.  The condition to this is you have to have the stick above the bottom row of buttons for gameplay to be comfortable.  If it's below like you have it, manipulating the stick and buttons at once feels a bit akward.  

I agree, I think you may need a bit more space below the stick to rest your hand comfortably.

Hmmm... here's the layout with mini push-buttons for start buttons (I also included an extra mini for shazzam/shift). Looking good now.

Now that I'm at it, I'm half thinking of adding an second joystick to the panel- for Robotron and of course 2 player games. But this makes the panel a bit wider than I had originally wanted; the idea is that this is for a small table-top machine.

I could take out some of the player 2 buttons, but then 2 player fighter games would be a bit unfair.

One player seems to be the way to go for it. It may be a bit lonely, but then I've never really played much simultaneous 2 player games anyway.

[JoyMonkey]

I've had another go at it; here's the panel I'll more than likely end up going with.

I dumped the 6 button idea in favor of squeezing in a second player, centered the trackball in the panel and worked out how some vinyl graphics would look on it.

[hooded_paladin]

that joystick looks awfully close to the trackball (but I'm not really sure how far it needs to be)

[JoyMonkey]

that joystick looks awfully close to the trackball (but I'm not really sure how far it needs to be)

It does look close, but it will be fine. There's not much space to play around with internally, but I'm sure I'll manage to cram it all in.

Here's the internal diagram for the same panel. It's 20" x 7.5".

[AlanS17]

It looks cramped, but it looks like it'll fit. My own panel is packed in tight in some spots like that, too. The problem is never making anything fit on top. It's making everything fit underneath.

[menace]

This may seem obvious, but the trial and error method with cardboard cutouts will let you know better than anything else whether it feels okay.

[JoyMonkey]

My friend that runs the CNC machine managed to fit the panel into his busy schedule today. And here it is.

I must have accidentally moved a drill hole in the layout though, one hole doesn't line up with player1's joystick (it's about 1/8" off).
I'll probably just leave it like this - the joystick's base fits very snuggly intothe base hole, so the 3 remaining bolts should be enough to hold it securely.

I had planned to paint it, but I think I like the metalic look.

[u_rebelscum]

Looks good.

You might want to put a spacer between the top of trackball case and the bottom of the control panel.  Or are you going to top the CP with (1/8") lexan?  (Which would do the same thing.)

IMO, the lip sticking up above the CP as shown in your picture, in a word, sucks.  I see lots of other BYO CPs that stick up like that, but... [shutter].  
I just cannot play with any of my TBs sticking up like that; you might be different. [shrug]

Just my two cents.

[shumph]

happs new 3 inch trackballs come with a spacer just for that reason the redesign of them causes it to set up just a hair on a flat metal cp

so if you didnt get one with it id call happ and request one

[JoyMonkey]

hmmm....
I thought the 1/8" aluminium I used would be thick enough; any metal CP I've had in the past was always .063 or .040 aluminium.
The trackball is an eBay purchase and didn't come with the mounting plate.

After I sand and buff the surface I'll more than likely put a 1/16" home-made mounting plate between the trackball and the panel. That should clear up the problem.