Need control suggestions to match certain games

[YllabianSpaceGuppy]

I'm in the planning stage of building my first MAME cabinet and I'm trying to select controls that will be most like the originals for a few of my "must have" games. I'm looking for new, easily available controls that are hopefully priced reasonably. I'm going to do a swappable/modular cp so this won't result in a monstrous frankenpanel. Hopefully someone with knowledge of both the original games and modern controls can give suggestions for the following:

1. Crazy Climber - This is my number one holy grail game and I'd like to get joysticks that match the originals closely. What would come close? It's been a long time since I've even seen an original cabinet so I can't even remember if they are long or short throw, etc... I definitely would need a ball top though. I can't stand bats.

2. Defender / Moon Patrol - Is there a 2 way physically restricted joystick option available that would be good for vertical (Defender) or horizontal (Moon Patrol) type games? Again... ball top.

3. Tempest - I've read several MAME cab building guides that suggest Oscar or SlikStik spinners for Tempest. AFAIK these companies are now out of business? What's my best option for an authentic feeling Tempest spinner?

4. Ikari Warriors - Are there any 8 way rotary joysticks currently available? And if so, will I need a dedicated controller card for them? I saw rotary joysticks at Happ Controls but KLOV says Ikari Warriors used 8 way rotaries and Happ describes theirs as "12 position rotary". I can't tell from the descriptions if they are the same thing. If they are, they cost $53.50 a piece. Add in an Ultimarc Rotary Joystick Interface for $36 and I'm looking at $143 before shipping - ouch. What's my best option here?

5. Front Line - This game uses a unique 8 position rotary control that also pushes down as a button. I don't think there is anything like this currently available. One thought I had was an 8 way joystick with a top mounted button. Do you think this would work ok?

Finally, I want to get a 4 way joystick that's close to what I remember from the arcades (Pac Man, Donkey Kong, Frogger, etc...). I see that Groovy Game Gear has the Leaf Pro joystick that is available in 4 way. They also have the True4 which looks promising. I'm not looking to replicate one particular game in this instance, I just want a good all-around old school 4 way. Any opinions or suggestions?

Thanks in advance for any replies and for reading this long post.

[mgb]

Hello and welcome 

I would think it would be hard to build one panel thats fits that bill without building something considered a frankenpanel.

for a spinner, check out the spinners from Groovy Game Gear. They also have a push pull one
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=86&zenid=76msj1t9oritfu1rpvgglmfrp4

or theres the Ultimarc Spintrak
http://www.ultimarc.com/SpinTrak.htm

Those rotary joysticks from Happ are the same thing but they are bat tops. you may be able to find some used snk ones.

There are some posts around here about Frontline. I guess you can use a push pull spinner but it won't be as authentic without the click and definate positions. I guess the rotary joystick idea may work. I personally find that my hand hurts from using rotary joysticks, (maybe I'm a sissy)
here are some posts on Frontline
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=94965.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=109868.0


The True 4 may work well for you, they look like a nice stick. or maybe the u360 will work best for your multiple needs. Good luck

[Paul Olson]

I know you said you were looking for new, but I would really suggest finding original controls for the modular panels. For a general 4-way, the Wico leaf switch stick is great. They can still be found on ebay or put up a wanted post here or at KLOV. I really don't think you can beat that stick.

I think crazy climber used 8-way wicos, but I am not sure.

IF the game is important to you, get the real thing. I have Ikari Warriors sticks waiting to be mounted on panels, and yes, you will need an interface for those. I see pairs of these sticks selling for about $50 pretty regularly.

For an all purpose spinner, one of the new ones from Ultimarc or GGG would be pretty good. I am using an old oscar spinner, but I also bought Tron, Tempest, and Arkanoid spinners to mount on panels (I REALLY need to start making panels again. )

I currently have way too much stuff, but if I had it to do over again, I would start out with:

Wico 4-way leaf
2 Wico 8-way leafs
2 Competition sticks (if you like fighters)
aftermarket spinner
Happ 3" Trackball


That will cover most of the games. You can specialize after that if you decide that you don't one of those sticks on a particular game. The first addition for me would be a real Donkey Kong stick. For you, I would suggest the LS-30 sticks (Ikari Warriors), since that is important to you. Defender and Moon Patrol are both best with a real Williams stick, but you would need 2 of them so you have vertical and horizontal. I would spend the money for Defender since it works so much better with the reverse button. Honestly, the wico 4-way is probably fine for moon patrol.

If you never buy anything else, you can be perfectly happy, or you can go as wild as you want (or can afford). Getting into wheels and yokes is fun. I have Star Wars, Roadblasters, and Spy Hunter yokes waiting and I really hope I get them mounted this summer.

I bought cheap when I started, and I have replaced a lot of them with better condition controls. I think it is worth it to spend more for a good one unless you have the time and ability to fix them.

Have fun with it. I bought my first cabinet for MAME 8 years ago, and have been enjoying it ever since. I am in the process of a new redesign that will use an LCD TV, which I am looking forward to. I now have 14 of the games in my garage...mostly the ones that I bought dedicated controls for...Donkey Kong, Gyruss, Defender, Tempest, Moon Patrol. It is a weird hobby! With modular, you can recreate the exact controls of the originals, and I think that makes the games way more fun to play. Please post about your progress as you move forward.

[YllabianSpaceGuppy]

mgb:

I think I am going to go with the TurboTwist 2 from GGG. Any idea what topper would be a close match to Tempest?

Thanks for the links to the Front Line controller threads. Hacking one of my own is a possibility down the road but my first read through of wugly's description went over my head. I could always try to track down an original but I've a feeling it wouldn't be cheap and I'm trying to keep costs down at the outset.

Paul:

I hear you about finding the original controls but I'm trying to keep things easy (and within budget!) and get the parts fairly quickly. I'm not a super-stickler for the exact controls but would like to be in the ballpark. It's literally been decades since I played most of the original machines so I doubt I would be able to discern anything but major differences at this point. Since I'm going with a modular cp design I could always get vintage controls in the future when time and budget allow if I feel it necessary.

As far as the joysticks go, I think I want to try out the leaf switch sticks available at GGG. I believe they haven't been available for very long and I've not had much luck finding posts comparing them to the older leaf sticks. Can anyone provide feedback or links to reviews?

I think I will take your advice on the Ikari sticks. It's one of my top games and I'd really like it to be authentic. Also, the price you quote is actually cheaper than the rotary sticks available new. You say you see them up for sale pretty regularly... would that be on ebay, "for sale" forums, or what? What are my choices for a controller if a I do get ahold of them? Would the rotary controller at Ultimarc suffice?

I'm not much into fighters. My personal arcade experience was over by the time they became popular. I started around the time of Space Invaders and was out of the scene by the mid eighties (Commodore 64, heavy metal, and girls replaced arcade machines for me). I may add a set of fighter controls in the future but they are not part of my initial plans.

I'm currently trying to decide on an attachment scheme for the modular controls. I'm thinking I will put most of the individual controls on separate panels but will have 1 or 2 complete panels including a Defender/Stargate layout. I have not seen a physical 2 way restrictor plate so I have contemplated creating one of my own and putting it around some sort of 4 way stick for Defender. If it's possible to get an original Williams 2 way though, I would like to. Can anyone point me to somewhere where I could buy one?

Finally (for this post at least!), I'm trying to find layouts of certain control panels with dimensions so I can properly space my controls. In particular, I'd like to find Defender, Crazy Climber, and Robotron. These have to be somewhere on the web, right?

I will definitely be posting pictures once I make significant progress.

[scofthe7seas]

sniff sniff
I smell a frankenpanel! 

If you want to see how most arcade games layout looks like, gamesdatabase.com has a load of pictures of original CPs.

[nick3092]

As far as the joysticks go, I think I want to try out the leaf switch sticks available at GGG. I believe they haven't been available for very long and I've not had much luck finding posts comparing them to the older leaf sticks. Can anyone provide feedback or links to reviews?

I bought the LeafPro with the 4-way restrictor.  I can't really give you a comparison to original/older sticks, as it's been many years since I have played a machine with them.  But I can tell you it has a nice short throw and the 4-way restrictor rolls nicely.

If it's possible to get an original Williams 2 way though, I would like to. Can anyone point me to somewhere where I could buy one?

If you don't mind it being a repro vs. an original, Arcade Shop sells these:

http://www.arcadeshop.de/Joysticks-2-Way-Williams-Reprostick_1034.html

[YllabianSpaceGuppy]

scofthe7seas:

You must have missed my stated intention of creating a modular cp. The smell of a frankenpanel turns my stomach!

nick3092:

Thanks for the feedback on the LeafPro. I think I'm going to give them a try. They certainly won't break the bank either.

I definitely don't mind a repro Williams 2 way. My only sticking point on that stick is price. Google is telling me that 49.95 euros is equal to $71.50, and that's before shipping! If I can't find anything for under $50 or so, I may try a homebrew approach first. Thank you for the link.

Paul:

I've found the thread on your modular cp (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68892.0). Did you ever get around to creating the documentation site you described there? I would like some more information on your design. I'm new to unistrut. I gather that it is some kind of metal channel that you can fit nuts into and slide them back and forth? Then you have to line your bolts up and screw them in? The first modular design I saw was Doc's (http://www.beersmith.com/mame/index.htm), which is very cool, but I'm not totally sold on it. I've also found this one (http://members.cox.net/mikesmodularmame/) which is the same but with the addition of hook & eye latches (not going there). I also saw a dovetail attachment idea in a thread here that was interesting but I don't think it's workable. Finally, I've seen velcro, which I don't like. Your attachment idea is the best I've seen so far IMO, but like I said, I don't fully understand yet. I'll be making a trip to Home Depot/Lowe's to try to examine the parts first hand. I would like the attachment process to be even simpler than screwing it down (with a motorized tool, of course!) but could live with it. I'm not going to be having large groups of people over insisting that I immediately swap controls every five minutes! I'm a programmer by trade and I'm searching for the "elegant" solution I had an idea for using butterfly latches (typically seen on instrument cases, they just use a half turn to lock down) but they aren't mounted on perpendicular surfaces so I don't really think they would work out. Would you mind describing your system again (as if you were talking to a 3 year old)? Thanks!

[Paul Olson]

scofthe7seas:

You must have missed my stated intention of creating a modular cp. The smell of a frankenpanel turns my stomach!

nick3092:

Thanks for the feedback on the LeafPro. I think I'm going to give them a try. They certainly won't break the bank either.

I definitely don't mind a repro Williams 2 way. My only sticking point on that stick is price. Google is telling me that 49.95 euros is equal to $71.50, and that's before shipping! If I can't find anything for under $50 or so, I may try a homebrew approach first. Thank you for the link.

Paul:

I've found the thread on your modular cp (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68892.0). Did you ever get around to creating the documentation site you described there? I would like some more information on your design. I'm new to unistrut. I gather that it is some kind of metal channel that you can fit nuts into and slide them back and forth? Then you have to line your bolts up and screw them in? The first modular design I saw was Doc's (http://www.beersmith.com/mame/index.htm), which is very cool, but I'm not totally sold on it. I've also found this one (http://members.cox.net/mikesmodularmame/) which is the same but with the addition of hook & eye latches (not going there). I also saw a dovetail attachment idea in a thread here that was interesting but I don't think it's workable. Finally, I've seen velcro, which I don't like. Your attachment idea is the best I've seen so far IMO, but like I said, I don't fully understand yet. I'll be making a trip to Home Depot/Lowe's to try to examine the parts first hand. I would like the attachment process to be even simpler than screwing it down (with a motorized tool, of course!) but could live with it. I'm not going to be having large groups of people over insisting that I immediately swap controls every five minutes! I'm a programmer by trade and I'm searching for the "elegant" solution I had an idea for using butterfly latches (typically seen on instrument cases, they just use a half turn to lock down) but they aren't mounted on perpendicular surfaces so I don't really think they would work out. Would you mind describing your system again (as if you were talking to a 3 year old)? Thanks!

I was looking for an elegant solution as well, but MDF is incredibly weak on the ends. It is the paper on top that gives it good strength, but it is definitely not an all-purpose material. I tried a lot of different locking mechanisms, but if you don't want to use screws from the top, you will run into the weakness of the inner material (sawdust and glue). I didn't want the expense of metal panels, and I wanted the panels to be really flat. MDF is the only wood that I know of that stays flat all of the time. Even plywood can warp a bit. I finally just went with bolts through the top because there was no cost effective alternative.

If you have any questions, shoot me a PM. I can take some video to show you how it all works. It is pretty simple, but the build has to be pretty precise. The unistrut was the closest commercial product to the design I came up with...and it is cheap, which was the main reason for using it instead of trying to fab something. It has nuts that slide in the track when you push down on them, but hold position otherwise. I just put enough of them in there so they main panel configurations bolt down without having to adjust anything. They can be moved if needed though, so there is a lot of versatility. Again, the cost to performance ratio is high. I have been using it for probably 5 years or more, and it is all still functional. One panel is ugly now because I dropped it an it dinged up the corner, but they are all otherwise still looking pretty good. I have a whole stack of blank panels, but I haven't put any together in years. The arcade in the garage takes up way too much time.

IF you want to go with metal panels, search for telengard's thread. His is basically the same, but he used rack panels instead of wood. Out of my budget for the amount of panels I want to have.

I agree on the joysticks to a point. I still recommend the wicos though. It sounds like all you really played were the old games, and I think you will notice the difference. I tried a lot of sticks before listening to everyone about the wicos. They were right.

He might still have one of the Williams sticks. I bought 2 of these: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111354.msg1191916#msg1191916, and they are NOS and look great. They are going to be installed on my Moon Patrol and Defender when the overlays show up. I have used non NOS versions of these sticks on the MAME cab and they are great. I think it is worth the cash to buy NOS though. They should last you forever under home use.

The Ikari sticks show up on here, KLOV, and eBay. I even had mine up for sale for a while when I needed cash, but they didn't sell for $50. I am keeping them now though since the money crunch is over.

[scofthe7seas]

Telengard has a pretty sweet modular control panel. I think his panels are made of aluminum. It looks like madness to me, but a nice sort of madness.

http://home.comcast.net/~bsturk/mame/controls.html

[nick3092]

The first modular design I saw was Doc's (http://www.beersmith.com/mame/index.htm), which is very cool, but I'm not totally sold on it.

I built mine based on Doc's design, but instead of trying to drill holes and line up the dowel pins, I just used industrial strength Velcro.  It works really well.  If your interested, I can take some pics or video for you.

[YllabianSpaceGuppy]

Paul:

Thanks for the tips on MDF. I was thinking of some solutions involving rabbits but I wasn't taking the weakness of the material into consideration. Your unistrut solution is looking better all the time. I think I've grasped how the whole thing works. I stopped in to Lowes today and they gave me a blank stare when I asked about unistrut. I didn't see anything resembling it there. Where did you find yours?

I've decided to try and get original Ikari and Defender sticks. Even if the cost is high, it's still cheaper than getting two full original cabinets (and my wife would kill me if I tried that!).

Paul & scofthe7seas:

Yes, I've seen telengard's setup. It's the shiznit. I just don't want to go to the trouble and expense of metal though. I've got pretty basic woodworking skills as it is and I'm not ready to jump into metal working.

nick3092:

If it's no trouble, I wouldn't mind seeing some pics. My assumed problems with Velcro are the stability over a long period of time, the solid-ness of the contact, ease of release, and worries about the fit of the panel (seems like two perfectly flat pieces of wood would butt up against each other better than with Velcro in-between).

[scofthe7seas]

You might want to consider some kind of lockdown bar. Something that clamps down and clicks into place. As long as the pieces fit snug horizontally, the bar will keep them from coming up.

[mgb]

I think I am going to go with the TurboTwist 2 from GGG. Any idea what topper would be a close match to Tempest?

None of them look just like the tempest knob except for maybe the skirted aluminum ones.
I like the designer and token top ones because they have some weight.
You may also want to get the energy storage cylinder.

Telengard has a pretty sweet modular control panel. I think his panels are made of aluminum. It looks like madness to me, but a nice sort of madness.

http://home.comcast.net/~bsturk/mame/controls.html

That is one of the nices modular CPs I've seen

Here is another awesome modular project to check out for ideas
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111163.0

[SammyWI]

...
2. Defender / Moon Patrol - Is there a 2 way physically restricted joystick option available that would be good for vertical (Defender) or horizontal (Moon Patrol) type games? Again... ball top.
...

I've been considering trying to fab up a 2 way restrictor for my Sanwa JLW-TM-8.  I'm thinking I could come up with a part that will fit in from the bottom, filling two sides of the 8 way restrictor.  Since it won't be visible, it could be made from wood for easy fab / modifications.   Then pair that with countersunk ball top.

[mgb]

I'm not really sure where it makes that big of a difference if you have a physically restricted 2-way or not.
I know playing a 4-way game definately sucks when using an 8-way stick but I've never had a hard time using a 4 or 8-way to play a 2-way game.
but if you really want 2-way restriction, I thought you can do that with a seimitsu LS32.

[YllabianSpaceGuppy]

scofthe7seas:

It seems that the hardest part of designing a modular panel is the mechanism to keep the panel locked down vertically. You want it to be pretty easy to attach and detach so some type of quick release would be ideal, but I'm having a very hard time finding something that would work. I've seen several types of latches that seemed great at first glance but they are not made to be attached in the way that the panel sits on the supports. The way I think of it is that the panel sits perpendicular to the support. Most of the latches I've seen are made to be attached along the same plane. Although I would rather not attach from the top with a bolt, I think it's the best solution I've seen so far. Paul's setup looks like a very good solution (telengard's too, but it's done with metal).

mgb:

The feel of the knob is more important to me than the look. Your description of weight or "heft" is what I'm looking for in a spinner. I'm not too crazy about the designs available for the token top and designer knobs but I can live with them. I think the "web beast" would work out ok and the color scheme matches what I want. I wish he had the designer knobs with just a plain colored top. The description states that "The Energy Storage Cylinder is no longer required for prolonged spin when you use the TT2 Designer Series knob". I'm guessing the ESC is just some type of balanced weight that adds momentum to the spinner and the heavier designer tops accomplish the same thing? TopJimmyCooks' cp is certainly awesome but appears to be way out of my league when it comes to manufacturing skills.

SammyWI:

That's along the lines of what I was thinking of doing. Let me know if you go through with it. I would be interested to hear how it was done and how it works out.

mgb:

I'm just speculating at this point, but I think the physical restriction is important because I don't want the wasted movement of the stick being able to move from side to side. In a fast game like Defender I think it could affect your performance ,especially with the reverse button right next to it. I would think that you would tend to pull the stick to the right when hitting reverse.

[telengard]

Telengard has a pretty sweet modular control panel. I think his panels are made of aluminum. It looks like madness to me, but a nice sort of madness.

http://home.comcast.net/~bsturk/mame/controls.html

Yep, they are aluminum, but it cuts quite easily.  I had originally used steel, now THAT was painful.  Single push button holes took an enternity.
And yes, OCD drives the madness.....    

~telengard

[telengard]

Paul:

Thanks for the tips on MDF. I was thinking of some solutions involving rabbits but I wasn't taking the weakness of the material into consideration. Your unistrut solution is looking better all the time. I think I've grasped how the whole thing works. I stopped in to Lowes today and they gave me a blank stare when I asked about unistrut. I didn't see anything resembling it there. Where did you find yours?

I've decided to try and get original Ikari and Defender sticks. Even if the cost is high, it's still cheaper than getting two full original cabinets (and my wife would kill me if I tried that!).

Paul & scofthe7seas:

Yes, I've seen telengard's setup. It's the shiznit. I just don't want to go to the trouble and expense of metal though. I've got pretty basic woodworking skills as it is and I'm not ready to jump into metal working.

nick3092:

If it's no trouble, I wouldn't mind seeing some pics. My assumed problems with Velcro are the stability over a long period of time, the solid-ness of the contact, ease of release, and worries about the fit of the panel (seems like two perfectly flat pieces of wood would butt up against each other better than with Velcro in-between).

I have very poor woodworking skills myself.  I have the panels made at a machine shop.  I give them the blank 1/2/3/4U aluminum panels and they cut them to the right length and make the holes for me.  I could *never* do that on my own.

The type of work I have to do for my modules is no different then from woodworking.  Just a hand drill and bits (and the occasional hole saw for buttons/trackballs).

Not trying to sell ya on it, but just wanted to mention that I don't personally do the "hard part".     

~telengard