Lcd Tv or Monitor

[Dr. Willy]

I figured i would get more views/replys here in the main forum.

I am using an LCD one way or another. I have found an LCD Montior and Tv that are both 28" and 16:10 aspect ratio. The monitor can be had new for about 280 and i found the tv new for about 250. Is there a reason i should go monitor instead of tv?

[nitz]

I think, generally speaking, the answer is no, but it may depend on the specs of each. If you post them, someone can probably give you a better answer.

I'm curious, where are you finding 16:10 lcd TVs and monitors that big? All the ones that big that I've seen are 16:9 which is worse than 16:10 when you plan on using them for 4:3 ratio stuff. If 16:10's that big are available, I might get one...

[Blanka]

TV's often have circuits for smoothing SD content. If there is a option to turn it off, you might be able to use it, but big chance the TV will add a lot of lag. Some add 60ms! That is unplayable.
Other things to consider:
28 inch 16:10 screens are only made in TN flavour. This means no great viewing angles.
For 4:3 content and great angles the options are:
27 inch PVA panels, but these have a slower response time. For example an old Dell 2709 or 2707, a Samsung 275T or a Acer 2723.
26 inch (actually 25.5 inch) IPS panels. These are probably the most beautiful panels ever made, even to todays standards! These were found in LG W2600HP, Acer 2623, Hazro 26i, Viewsonic 2623, Nec 2690 among others.
Both 26 and 27 inch delivers close to 19 inch 4:3 CRT vertical space as well. These 2 options are no longer made, but can be found on classified sites. Don't be fooled by the second hand thing, these screens are above most screens available new today!

For just vertical use, the 20 inch 4:3 IPS screens like the HP LP2065 are awesome. The vertical image is bigger than on a 32 inch TV!

If you look at new monitors, the closest thing is the new 27 inch IPS panel with 2560x1440 resolution. It is a lot of pixels, and awesome in colour and angles, but it is only 22 inch 4:3, where the old 25.5 16:10 ones had a 23 inch 4:3 image, and the old 27 inches had a 24 inch 4:3 image. But these panels are in the 600-700$ range!

The only real good solution right now (currently available) is the Acer B273HLOymidh (be sure to match the name correctly, there are small name variations with totally different specs). This screens is cheap, it has a MVA panel (almost the speed of IPS, wide angles and with good blacks of PVA). It's a 27 inch 16:9 1920x1080 screen for 300$. And through the use of fullHD resolution and HDMI, this monitor is perfect for XBOX/PS3 content as well.

[Dr. Willy]

http://www.hannsg.com/US/EN/Products/LCD%20Monitors/Common.aspx?productId=204


That is the monitor i found. Blanka I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on it specs. It can be had pretty regularly for about 200-250 on sale. I looked fr all the monitors you listed and couldn't find a one

[Blanka]

I see your problem. I don't understand why, but the USA seems to be excluded from many high quality panels available in the EU. Do you guys only want cheap and big?

[Dr. Willy]

well yes and no, 300 is my limit and i wanted bigger then a 22 and a 16:10 aspect ratio. lol So many wants\needs and no money to back it. Is the monitor i listed above complete crap?

[Vigo]

With the 16:10 ratio, yeah, you aren't going to find much better. Not too common of a screen ratio anymore.

Hannstar monitors are actually one of the more desirable "cheap" monitors. I personally prefer Acer, Viewsonic or Asus monitors, but if you are going for a lesser name brand, Hannstar monitors are known to be quality. Hanns.G is their gaming grade monitors, so it should be good enough, IMHO.

[Blanka]

Hanns.G

I can't stop thinking this is a Germenglish speaking villain in some bad B-movie. But I don't know the quality, they don't ship Hanns.G in Europe I guess.

[Vigo]

Actually, now thinking about it, there was a germanish speaking villian by that name.


Hans Gruber - Die Hard

Now I am never going to think of Hanns.G Monitors the same again. 

[docpaul]

The only real good solution right now (currently available) is the Acer B273HLOymidh (be sure to match the name correctly, there are small name variations with totally different specs). This screens is cheap, it has a MVA panel (almost the speed of IPS, wide angles and with good blacks of PVA). It's a 27 inch 16:9 1920x1080 screen for 300$. And through the use of fullHD resolution and HDMI, this monitor is perfect for XBOX/PS3 content as well.

Blanka, thanks for your comprehensive information.  It certainly helps me sort through my options.

Can I ask a couple of questions?

1)  I pride myself on being able to find most anything on the net quickly, but I've struggled to find a way to purchase the above monitor online?  Is it rebranded somehow by other companies?  Can you give me an example of a link where I could buy one of these?

2)  I noticed that you are not a big fan of this variant of the LG W2600 monitor:

http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/LG-W2600H-PF-Widescreen-26-inch-LCD-Flat-Monitor-Refurbished/3954459/product.html?cid=123620

That said, given the cost and the fact that it's 16:10, is that good "bang for the $"?

The bottom line:  I am really trying to narrow in on a 25-27" LCD for my Dynamo H14 cabinet (that housed a Golden Tee game), and would really appreciate advice as to what to purchase, spending limit less than $400.

[MonMotha]

I see your problem. I don't understand why, but the USA seems to be excluded from many high quality panels available in the EU. Do you guys only want cheap and big?

Seems that way.  Low res, too.  1600x900 is fairly common, and "FULL HD 1080p!!!!!1!!one" has become the standard for "highest res you can reasonably get".  Nevermind that my 1.5 year old laptop handily beats that (1920x1200 on a 15.4" 16:10), and heck, my laptop from 2003 still slaughters almost any new monitor on DPI (1600x1200 on a 15" 4:3).  Nobody's willing to pay the premium for those sorts of things, especially since "everything's too small" (thank you, Windows, and your total lack of usable DPI setting/scaling support until Win7), so the mass market stuff goes giant, low res, and cheap.  Those 2560x1600 monitors are usually crazy expensive, especially for anything other than a crap TN, if you can even find them.

You can pry my 2003 19" AG Neovo IPS 5:4 from my cold, dead hands (or pay me more than I originally paid for it 8 years ago).  The contrast ratio isn't great, and the response times aren't too good by modern standards, but I can look at the thing freaking SIDEWAYS and still see a perfect image.

Sometimes, you can get the same monitors that are sold in the EU, but they often have different model numbers, and the "panel lottery" is far more common on the US model numbers.  It seems that, unless you're willing to spend north of $600 and sometimes $1000, you can't be guaranteed a quality LCD monitor in the USA.

[Blanka]

1)  I pride myself on being able to find most anything on the net quickly, but I've struggled to find a way to purchase the above monitor online?  Is it rebranded somehow by other companies?  Can you give me an example of a link where I could buy one of these?

2)  I noticed that you are not a big fan of this variant of the LG W2600 monitor:

1) It is really new. It is the first monitor with a 27 inch MVA panel. It is easy to get in Europe, but I think they keep it away from the USA again, like they did with the W2600HP, the Acer 2623, the Acer 2723, the Fujitsu's and a lot of other budget PVA/IPS screens we had here. The brands that use quality panels most in the USA in budget models are ViewSonic and Planar. Dell and HP use good panels too, but at premium price. Go through the Acers and check if any is 176/176 or 178/178 in viewing angles.

2) No, in that case you can go with the HannsG. But if it has the backlight of the W2600HP, it might still be interesting if the price is right. I see it is wide gamut, but slightly less bright, 300cd/m2 instead of 400. So if you like popy colours, go with the 2600H if the price is right. It is well suited for putting behind a bezel. The case is identical to the W2600HP.

[Blanka]

Things I always check with LCD's

- Do they return to displaying a signal after disconnecting power?
- If they have multi-inputs, do they have auto-input selection?
- Can the brightness be set low enough to your taste? Auto sensing ambient sensors are prefered.
- Can you set scaling to your taste? For example does it maintain aspect ratio, or can you only choose 4:3 or 16:9?
- Can you turn of any power lights? They might anoy.
- Do the buttons stick out?
- Can you push the buttons when mounted?

The last 2 questions can scare away, but sometimes it does not have to. I use Acer 2723's now in my cab, they have a brilliant 27 inch wide gamut PVA screen, but the case has a very strange curve in the bezel that makes flat mounting a problem. But you can remove the plastic shell really easy, and then the buttons hang loose on a small pcb. The monitor itself is packed in a solid metal frame, including power supply and vesa connections, so it mounts really well after removing the plastic! You can even stick the buttons on the back of the panel for easy tweaking!

[GameGeezer]

I really don't understand why people use LCDs at all for MAME. Between the lack of 'true black', the contrast issues, viewing angle weirdness and all of the other ugly problems with LCD technology, I still favour CRT diaplays.

Plasma is the best flat-display option if you want a sharp, correct image with a proper black--really, look at Galaga on an LCD vs. a CRT or plaasma display and you'll understand--though the fixed pixel ratios on non-CRTs and the scaling technology involved always looks anywhere from a wee bit to a gread deal 'wrong' to my eyes.

I'm half-looking for a flat CRT Trinitron High-Res monitor that's 21" or better, though I'm wondering if that'll look too big. My 19" CRT looks fine, especially with  display effects (raster lines, honeycomb pixel offset, etc.) and I'm not entirely sure about upping the size. My only reason is for a larger playfield with bezels set to 'on' for a more authentic look.

With the 19", the game areais snrunken just a hair too much with the bezels (e.g. Donkey Kong) and game sprites lack a bit of detail. This may be a pixel-aspect bug though, as sprites seem to be squished horizontally, making them seem a bit block-y where they aughtn't be. The flat Trinitron CRT makes the bezels look 'flat', so they look more real... That's the reason for my preference for flat CRTs, rather than the standard type. -GG

[Blanka]

I really don't understand why people use LCDs at all for MAME. Between the lack of 'true black', the contrast issues, viewing angle weirdness and all of the other ugly problems with LCD technology, I still favour CRT diaplays.

Come here and have a try.
Blacks: no issue, blacker than a CRT. It all comes down to good ambient light matching, and then blacks are awesome.
Viewing angles: no issue, I use only IPS or PVA panels.

OK, low res gets blocky, but I like that too, it lets you focus on the game, and not on the mot balls surrounding it in original cabs.

Better than on CRT:
Geometry is perfect. Never distortion
Colour gamut is much wider if you want. This last thing makes the choice for kids who don't know ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about classic gaming, and thus perfect "objective", choose the LCD 99 out of 100 times above the CRT in the old cab.

Other resons of "people"
No risc of frying
20 kg's less weight
Cheaper
Easier to mount
Easier to get
All great reasons.

[Blanka]

Nice proof of the pudding:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1734400,00.asp
The contrast of the CRT is the Sony, the LCD is the NEC
Max brightness: CRT 1/3 of the LCD

[Donkbaca]

Really the only reason I see to get a CRT is the lack of large 4:3 lcd screens. 

Objectively, LCD's are:
Easier to get
Easier to mount
Less weight
Easier to maintan
Allows for more design options; i.e. slim cabs, and crazy designs like Dr Venture's or Ond's
Easier to set up


The only objective advantage to a CRT is the larger 4:3 Screen size. And, potentially, they might be cheaper, if you can find a used one, in good shape that works well with mame (i.e. powers on with the PC, remembers the correct input setting).  But put a 4:3 21.3 inch LCD in your cab, and you will find its a pretty good size.

Subjectively some say that CRT's look better.  I think LCD's look better.

[apfelanni]

i once had a hanns g 17 inch pc monitor for testing . the plan was to use it in a mame bartop. it was the worse display i ever encountered. i sold it one day after i received it and bought a dell instead. beware the cheapass pc chinastuff at all cost.  

ps . i dont like retrogaming on lcd-tft , even with the best panels money can buy .

[Vigo]

Dell monitors are made by Qisda (Benq), a Taiwan company that manufactures in China.

The same thing goes for Hanns.G - HQ in Taiwan, Manufacture in China.

This is actually extremely, extremely common to manufacture in china, even name brands like apple, sony and panasonic all manufacture in China.

Just look at Newegg reviews for Hanns.G monitors. Every monitor is rated 4-5 stars eggs.

[Blanka]

Just look at Newegg reviews for Hanns.G monitors. Every monitor is rated 4-5 stars eggs.

EVERYTING is rated 4-5 EGGS. Same as with Ebay, IMDB or many other sites with reviews: read the WORST ratings, and see what the common problems are, and check if they occur often, or just in one instance. Take the movie Source Code for example... The raves don't tell you anything. If you agree to the 1 or 2 ratings, leave the movie in the shop, if not, well go and see it.

[ButterGuns]

Whoa, is this 28" 16:10 s-video Hann-spree from costco http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=11535510&whse=BC&topnav=&cm_sp=RichRelevance-_-itempageVerticalRight-_-BrandTopSellers  the same display as the HannsG??

$250 for the hannspree sounds good to me? I've collected a $50 27" sharp crt tv, and it seems pretty painful to look at compared to a monitor.

i still have not GRASPED why using an LCD tv is not a better solution; aside from the better (but not authentic) picture and not being the perfect 4:3 aspect ratio.

give this newbie advice? im shopping for the display of my first build.  i have the 27" crt, but would i do better with the 28" 16:10 lcd?

[StriderDSO]

I have been looking for the right LCD screen for my first cab also. Just to let you know, Hannspree and HannsG appear to be the same company, although the have different products on their sites (although both websites are Hannspree, Inc). I was considering the large Hanns G. monitor, but after reading a few negative reviews, I've decided against it.

Instead I think I might be building a cab for an LG 32lk450 32" LCD TV (http://www.lg.com/us/tv-audio-video/televisions/LG-lcd-tv-32LK450.jsp). It's 16:9, not 16:10, but can't really find anything 16:9 over 27". The other alternative I had considered was an ASUS VE278Q 27" LCD Monitor (http://ncix.com/products/index.php?minorcatid=1003&subminorcatid=1114), although still not 16:10

Since I plan on playing a lot of SSFIV:AE, I want one of the larger monitors. Right now I play arcade games on a 25.5" 16:10 LCD monitor and think it's great though. Most games look like utter crap whether on a CRT or LCD, so I figure why put a hug bulky CRT in my cab

Did you end up making a decide yet, ButterGuns?

[ButterGuns]

when I walk into costco after work today and it's sitting there -then ya I think I will pick it up.  I wanna build my cab around a nice screen, and I think this 27.5" 16:10 is the right size. 

BUT, what are the things that I will suffer from if I use an s-video lcd-tv instead of a monitor or crt tv? What are the gotchas? 

[MonMotha]

S-Video to an LCD is going to look terrible.  End of story.  You'll be rescaling the video AT LEAST twice, mashing all the color information into a single, band limited analog signal with imperfect recovery, and running it over what is bound to be a terrible cable.  At least run the monitor at native res via analog RGB (or, even better DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort) and scale on the PC so you can get by with a single rescale.

[Vigo]

Even most of the cheapest graphics cards today have digital video out. If you computer only allows for for S-video out, do yourself a favor and spring the $30 bucks for a new graphics card. Either that, or stick with a CRT in this case.

[Howard_Casto]

Even most of the cheapest graphics cards today have digital video out. If you computer only allows for for S-video out, do yourself a favor and spring the $30 bucks for a new graphics card. Either that, or stick with a CRT in this case.

Forget DVI... most of the cheapest graphics cards today will have HDMI out.  If you use that then there's no cut-off eara or adjustment.  You can pick up a pcie ati card with hdmi for 30-50 bucks. 

[ButterGuns]

YA -my newly aquired (discontinued, but $20 on ebay) ati radeon x1600 pro pcie video card has vga, s-video, AND DVI -which can be converted to hdmi with an adapter so we're covered.

i visited 2 costcos yesterday and all they had was the same tv BUT in the novelty 3 foot diameter basketball case. it looks like a damn giant basketball, and NOT FUN to decase either. the bezel is not even close to flat and the huge basketball has speakers in it.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11653214&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|90607|2341&N=4047302&Mo=17&No=14&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=74672&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C

i have one more costco to check. i could just order one, but then i'd have to explain my surprise cab build project to the wiff when ups shows up.
i did game on the 27" sharp tv last night and its not sooo bad.  the blacks ARE NOT black, the screen is about 1mm tilted and i cant adjust, there's a constand low whine from the crt, and when they get close to the screen my arm hairs stand up.

i did find a neat tv size calculator. it lets you visualize the different size screens and get there deminsions. it's got a difficult url though... http://tvcalculator.com/

[lilrascal]

Did you consider the hanns g 27.5 monitor instead of the tv?  I picked up this one for $239 free shipping: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254052

Not on sale now, but, I think they put it on sale often.  Also Dell has a 24" IPS on sale for $339 right now.

[nox771]

i visited 2 costcos yesterday and all they had was the same tv BUT in the novelty 3 foot diameter basketball case. it looks like a damn giant basketball, and NOT FUN to decase either. the bezel is not even close to flat and the huge basketball has speakers in it.

Haha, that's hilarious     I always wonder how things like this get made.  Some exec was like "you know I think there is an untapped market for TV's that look like giant basketballs"

Of course this could be an opportunity for someone to be first to make a cab with a giant rotating basketball monitor.  I can see it now - giant basketball with a frankenpanel on front - "ready everybody, going to vertical mode" (imagine motor noises: zzZZzz, and giant rotating basketball)...

[StriderDSO]

@Lilrascal
How do you find the Hanns G monitor performs, Lilrascal? I would prefer get something that is 1920x1200, and the price is right on those. Any complaints about it?

[Howard_Casto]

YA -my newly aquired (discontinued, but $20 on ebay) ati radeon x1600 pro pcie video card has vga, s-video, AND DVI -which can be converted to hdmi with an adapter so we're covered.

i visited 2 costcos yesterday and all they had was the same tv BUT in the novelty 3 foot diameter basketball case. it looks like a damn giant basketball, and NOT FUN to decase either. the bezel is not even close to flat and the huge basketball has speakers in it.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11653214&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|90607|2341&N=4047302&Mo=17&No=14&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=74672&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C

i have one more costco to check. i could just order one, but then i'd have to explain my surprise cab build project to the wiff when ups shows up.
i did game on the 27" sharp tv last night and its not sooo bad.  the blacks ARE NOT black, the screen is about 1mm tilted and i cant adjust, there's a constand low whine from the crt, and when they get close to the screen my arm hairs stand up.

i did find a neat tv size calculator. it lets you visualize the different size screens and get there deminsions. it's got a difficult url though... http://tvcalculator.com/

No need for a calculator... I can help you with that. 

The largest crt monitor ever put in a "tradtional" arcade cabinet is 25 inches.  (By traditional, I mean not a showcase cab or something with a podium). 
A 28 inch, 16:10 monitor when in 4:3 mode will give you the same approximate size as a 25 inch crt, so you should use that.  And yes, the aspect DOES make a difference.... 16:9 reduces the image equivelent to something like 21-22 inches. 

[ButterGuns]

@lilrascal: i think you're very right, the monitor version would solve more issues (like power return).  i had looked at newegg (big fan) but neglected to see if they had a 16:10. THANKS for pointing it out! -i would refuse to purchase that big dumb basketball tv at costco.

@Howard_Casto: aww that tv calculator (http://tvcalculator.com), i thought was cool.  it's neat seeing the representation of 3 different tv's with their respective aspect ratios and sizes, AND with a 4:3 reference image so one can see the banding.  a nice thing about the horizontal 27" crt is that vertical games still are big -so to see what vert games look like on equivalent 16:9 lcd is an eye opener.

now would an lcd look good behind smoked acrylic? -to mask the banding. or is it just good for crts

[MonMotha]

LOTS of traditional Japanese cabinets use 27" (US size, the Japanese call it a 29") 4:3 CRT monitors.  Some later US designs used that size, too, IIRC, but 25" was much more prevalent through the mid-90s.  Most of those have room for a 27" since they had largeish bezels if you decide to cram one in (I did it to an MK2).

Also, if black isn't black on your CRT, turn the brightness control down.  CRTs are capable of essentially "true" black when properly adjusted as are Plasmas.  LCDs are not, but high end (and $300 is NOT "high end") LCDs can come very close, often matching what a cheap Plasma (which are essentially incapable of being properly adjusted, usually) can do.

[Blanka]

Also, if black isn't black on your CRT, turn the brightness control down.  CRTs are capable of essentially "true" black when properly adjusted as are Plasmas.

Nice theory. I saw quite a decent research on this topic. Result: the PVA LCD had the best contrast of all. The reason for the victory it suffers the least from side illumination of adjacent pixels, so the checker-board contrast was best overall. The CRT had the lowest contrast, only reaching to around 1:300 static.

[MonMotha]

I'm not really trying to say whether LCD or CRT or whathaveyou is better for this application; rather, I'm just pointing out that "if black doesn't appear to be actually black on a CRT monitor, you need to turn down the brightness control until it is".

"Black appearing gray" is not a technological limitation of a CRT, but many TVs and some monitors ship with settings so whacked out that black does indeed appear gray.  This is usually done to win the "brightness war" in the retail showroom, but it's annoying at home.

But no, CRTs don't have particularly good static contrast, but they should be able to have reasonably good absolute black levels, modulo phosphor illumination due to ambient light, if you properly adjust them and they're not designed poorly.  Unfortunately, adjusting them to be blindingly bright (which everyone seems to want to do) tends to creep up the black levels.  It shortens the life of the tube and promotes burn-in, too.  The technology also inherently has some issues with "bleeding" and "blooming" that will cause black levels to rise when displaying other content, and most designs suffer from poor power regulation that will cause similar problems and are much less of an issue on LCDs.

LCDs can get much brighter on white spots without sacrificing black levels.  So while their black levels start off a touch higher, they can attain much better contrast.

[ButterGuns]

I know this doesn't anwer the question, which is best, lcd tv or monitor, but i've purchased the 28" 16:10 monitor in question and taken pics of it and my old crt tv for comparison.  I'm happy with the picture size which has the same height as a vertical 19" crt of 14.5 inches.  I guess I've been waiting for an lcd solution which didn't have huge cut off bars -so the 16:10 is as good as it gets.

i didn't do any settings adjustments before taking these shots, so yes, the crt might look a little better with tweaking. pics were taken from the same distance


Gauntlet 2


Donkey Kong


Killer Instinct 2

The monitor is so nice though -makes me wanna just use it for my regular computer.

[nox771]

Nice side-by-side shots.  The LCD certainly looks a lot better than the CRT.  Even the better anti-reflective coating is obvious.  Is that this one? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254052  Viewing at an angle look ok?  (not that standing in front of a cab will give you any kind of viewing angle, but I wonder about others watching from the side)

[Justin]

Interesting thread.  When I built my first cab 8 yrs ago, CRT monitors was the way to go, based mainly on the proper 'look' that it would provide for MAME games.

So, are things shifting around some?  Are people using LCDs *and* then applying blit effects for honeycomb, etc?    I cannot stand playing classic games from the 80's in an LCD, they look blocky and unnatural.   How are people dealing with that?

[SNAAKE]

http://www.hannsg.com/US/EN/Products/LCD%20Monitors/Common.aspx?productId=204


That is the monitor i found. Blanka I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on it specs. It can be had pretty regularly for about 200-250 on sale. I looked fr all the monitors you listed and couldn't find a one

thats a great monitor..and lag free too. I dont have any technical details but I played all kinds of street fighter and didnt notice any lag.

[StriderDSO]

So that's the monitor you use personally, Snaake? If so, any complaints about it at all, or completely pleased with it?