Played Some Games Today

[JeepMonkey]

I answered a CL ad for a Williams IJ and went to check it out this afternoon.

IJ was fun, nice condition, extras, good price.

He also had some Sterns I had not played before.

TSPP was fun.  I would definately need to learn the rules better.

Spiderman was really fun.  The third flipper to hit Venom, Doc Oc is neat, the motorized Sandman targets, and the shaker motor made for a cool game.

Iron Man was awesome.  It is fast!  The playfield was pretty clear, not crowded.  The Iron Monger was cool with the magnet that throws the ball around.  It reminds me of the safe on Sopranos, minus the magnet, and I like that safe target.  The kicker shoots the ball towards the flippers very fast.  The playfield seemed bright, easy to see the ball pretty much anywhere.

I liked all three Sterns, and would like to own any one of them, but Iron Man took the cake.

[Xiaou2]

Maybe you liked the speed.. but spend any amount of time on the machines, and it will boar you to tears.

 If you like fast games, try  Theatre of Magic, Black Knight 2000, Black Knight, maybe even Creature from the black Lagoon.

 Theres more.  And they have much more depth and artistic detail, better sounds / music, better collectible value, and are just much more fun.

 You really shouldnt praise Sterns 'bottom of the bucket' designs.  It only gives them ammunition to make more crap.  LOTR is 1000x  better a game than Iron Man, and even that doesnt compare to some of the top 90s machines.  It was their best effort & design for sure.

[Jeff AMN]

Maybe you liked the speed.. but spend any amount of time on the machines, and it will boar you to tears.

 If you like fast games, try  Theatre of Magic, Black Knight 2000, Black Knight, maybe even Creature from the black Lagoon.

 Theres more.  And they have much more depth and artistic detail, better sounds / music, better collectible value, and are just much more fun.

 You really shouldnt praise Sterns 'bottom of the bucket' designs.  It only gives them ammunition to make more crap.  LOTR is 1000x  better a game than Iron Man, and even that doesnt compare to some of the top 90s machines.  It was their best effort & design for sure.

There's a HUGE contradiction in your post. You talk about spending time on those machines will bore him to tears, but then you recommend BK2000? How would a "only flip from one side of the game" machine be any more fun? Of all games mentioned in this thread, BK2000 is the most simplistic and repetitive.

I like Iron Man, but wouldn't pay the current price for it. Maybe 10 years from now when it's a $1,200-$1,500 game I'll bite, but Spider-Man, Lord of teh Rings, and The Simpsons Pinball Party are far better in the long run for the modes and shot selection.

[ChadTower]

I played an Iron Man recently for the first time and came away thinking "this is pretty but not much more fun than any random $1000 Williams DMD game".

I played Avatar for the first time sunday and came away thinking "this is almost as good as Iron Man."

[Jeff AMN]

Avatar does nothing for me. It's too similar to Iron Man, but not as good. The Rolling Stones is even less appealing.

Tron is looking like it has potential, but I'd really need to get some quality time on it. I love the upper flipper on there.

[JeepMonkey]

I missed out on the glory days of the 1990 Williams and Bally era.  I did play TOM enough to know I really liked it and bought one.  I have not played many 1990s pins, but with all of the love for these machines, I decided to check out IJ.  Give a Williams a real chance.  Having a Williams at home would give me some good playtime to feel out a Williams.

I can't say that the Sterns aren't without their problems, and my sample times are rather short, but I have enjoyed the half dozen I have played.  These are mostly too new, ie expensive, for what they are, but I do look forward to, hopefully, 2-3 years down the road when they are affordable to me.

[ChadTower]

Depends on the collectors in your area.  Up here there are enough deep pocket collectors that I have yet to see even a Ripleys for under maybe $2250 among the Sterns.

[Donkbaca]

I like the gotlieb games.

[Jeff AMN]

Spider-Man is also one that has held value extremely well. I keep wondering if it will keep holding as it has. I lucked into a killer deal for mine, and it's actually going for a bit more than I paid, so I've been tempted to let it go a few times. I can't though, because it's a pretty great game (especially with the installed shaker motor).

[ChadTower]

I like the gotlieb games.

I spent four hours here on sunday with the kids and discovered I like the early Data East games.  I'm going to have to hunt one down.

[smartbomb2084]

I guess you didn't own enough early DATA EAST games because they are essentially bootlegged Williams' System 11 games and have all of the same board problems with burned connectors and components.  All DATA EAST games are junk...period!

[Xiaou2]

There's a HUGE contradiction in your post. You talk about spending time on those machines will bore him to tears, but then you recommend BK2000? How would a "only flip from one side of the game" machine be any more fun? Of all games mentioned in this thread, BK2000 is the most simplistic and repetitive.

 I stated that if the Op is merely looking for a speed based game, then IMOP, there are many better options.

 I put BK2K on there, cause its much cheaper, has a better faster flow to it, much better sounds & music, a killer lightshow, awesome theme/backglass. (Real ART) And it has 3 flippers (even though its weighted mostly for 2). While its not quite comparable to TOM, its a real fun game. Most especially in the fast-flow series.

 In many ways, the original BK has a better ball flow.. but, I just cant stand the sounds of it.  Id still rather own and or play that over an Iron Man.. or Spider Man.

[smartbomb2084]

Xiaou2, buddy, why is it whenever you make an initial post all the yahoos on this forum slam you into the ground, jump on your face,  and then make you  respond with 2-3 or 4 posts to defend yourself?

EVERYONE here, including pinballjerk, is entitled to their opinion. Why don't the people let you have yours?

[JeepMonkey]

So Jim, do you like Monopoly?  You being interested in a newer Stern surprises me a little.

I enjoyed Monopoly.  I had a good chance at one, at $2k, but waited to long to pull the trigger.  But Monopolys seem available cheap fairly often, just have to find one close.

[ChadTower]

I have yet to play a Monopoly that wasn't beaten to crap and super filthy.  I'd like to at some point but have not had a chance.

[Jeff AMN]

I liked Monopoly but you gotta realize it was also the first 'real' game Stern did and there was a lot of hype around it.  I've been told that the railroad shot can be endlessly looped and it destroys the game but I've never attempted that.

I'd say with the distinct exceptions of NASCAR and World Poker Tour I've enjoyed all the modern Sterns I've played.  Those two are amongst the worst games I've played and I've played hundreds....

 

NASCAR is a mess. I can go up to it, start a game, and play endlessly with free credits from that point. I generally leave the machine with a few credits on it. I'm not sure how that one got crapped out the door as it is.

[studmuff]

There's a HUGE contradiction in your post. You talk about spending time on those machines will bore him to tears, but then you recommend BK2000? How would a "only flip from one side of the game" machine be any more fun? Of all games mentioned in this thread, BK2000 is the most simplistic and repetitive.

 I stated that if the Op is merely looking for a speed based game, then IMOP, there are many better options.

 I put BK2K on there, cause its much cheaper, has a better faster flow to it, much better sounds & music, a killer lightshow, awesome theme/backglass. (Real ART) And it has 3 flippers (even though its weighted mostly for 2). While its not quite comparable to TOM, its a real fun game. Most especially in the fast-flow series.

 In many ways, the original BK has a better ball flow.. but, I just cant stand the sounds of it.  Id still rather own and or play that over an Iron Man.. or Spider Man.

CFTBL is a  Williams dog.  Talk about a bore fest.  I think I feel asleep while playing it.  TOM is just OK.  "Now hit the Trunk".  The only reason you don't like SM and IM is because they are Stern titles.

[smartbomb2084]

Why can't you lazy texters use real titles when mentioning games? Communicating in code only a 10 year old understands is NOT communicating.

Creature from the Black Lagoon is a ten times better game than ANYTHING modern STERN has put out to date INCLUDING the Seth MacFarlane disaster known as Family Guy.

[Jeff AMN]

Creature from the Black Lagoon is a ten times better game than ANYTHING modern STERN has put out to date INCLUDING the Seth MacFarlane disaster known as Family Guy.

This is certifiably false.

[Xiaou2]

Creature from the Black Lagoon is a ten times better game than ANYTHING modern STERN has put out to date INCLUDING the Seth MacFarlane disaster known as Family Guy.

 +30 million

[Xiaou2]

studmuff,

 Are you one of these guys who has to stop the ball every 2 shots?

 IMOP, flipper holding is Cheating, and should be removed from the game.  It would separate the real skilled players from the posers.

[studmuff]

studmuff,

 Are you one of these guys who has to stop the ball every 2 shots?

 IMOP, flipper holding is Cheating, and should be removed from the game.  It would separate the real skilled players from the posers.

So what your saying is people like the Josh and Zach Sharpe, Lyman Sheets, Keith Elwin, etc are not skilled players and are posers.  It is a skill to be able to control the ball and make shots. 
Are you one of these guys who presses the flipper buttons at the same time?  No wonder you don't like any games made after 1970.
Xiaou2 please see a doctor.  You are suffering from ODD. lol

[Jeff AMN]

studmuff,

 Are you one of these guys who has to stop the ball every 2 shots?

 IMOP, flipper holding is Cheating, and should be removed from the game.  It would separate the real skilled players from the posers.

That's crazy talk. 90% of the skill in pinball is ball control.

[Jeff AMN]

Personally I don't tend to trap and hold the balls, but I do shake the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of my machines.  I can't even imagine how a pinball machine would be able to determine that you're holding a ball and if you set them up so that the flipper only engages for a second every time you hit the button you're going to feel extremely detached from the experience.

From what I've seen of those top ranked players, a lot of them will just make the same safe shot over and over again.   

If you ever have trouble sleeping, watch some tournament videos where Dr. Who is involved. It's better than Ambien.

[studmuff]

Personally I don't tend to trap and hold the balls, but I do shake the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of my machines.  I can't even imagine how a pinball machine would be able to determine that you're holding a ball and if you set them up so that the flipper only engages for a second every time you hit the button you're going to feel extremely detached from the experience.

From what I've seen of those top ranked players, a lot of them will just make the same safe shot over and over again.   

If you ever have trouble sleeping, watch some tournament videos where Dr. Who is involved. It's better than Ambien.

lol

[Xiaou2]

That's crazy talk. 90% of the skill in pinball is ball control.

 If we were to compare this to racing a car... One could say that its over 90% control of the car right?  But what if the driver slowed to 10 mph on the corners?  (but didnt need to go anywhere near that slow)

 Yes, control over the car is very important, but... what takes more skill?  Taking the corners at high speed..  or slow speeds?

 What about Tennis?  If the tennis player was able to catch the ball at any time... then fire it back at will?   Obviously it takes skill to stop/catch the ball... but it also changes the overall difficulty of play.

 A ball thats moving at great speed, increasing with each hit, with changing spin, becomes harder and harder to keep under control.   To me, thats much more fun and exciting that stopping the ball and taking the 10mph corner.

 

From what I've seen of those top ranked players, a lot of them will just make the same safe shot over and over again.

 Well, I found it somewhat comical that one of the top tournament winners consistently, was a former pinball programmer.  Its not that hes a not a good player... but rather, he knows all the software quirks and ways to amass the most points.  If you take that advantage away, he probably would be bested by some of the other players.

I don't tend to trap and hold the balls, but I do shake the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of my machines.

 Me Too.

I can't even imagine how a pinball machine would be able to determine that you're holding a ball and if you set them up so that the flipper only engages for a second every time you hit the button you're going to feel extremely detached from the experience.

 Electronically. I dont think there would be any disconnect.. especially to those who do not abuse ball stopping & holding.

[Jeff AMN]

That's crazy talk. 90% of the skill in pinball is ball control.

 If we were to compare this to racing a car... One could say that its over 90% control of the car right?  But what if the driver slowed to 10 mph on the corners?  (but didnt need to go anywhere near that slow)

 Yes, control over the car is very important, but... what takes more skill?  Taking the corners at high speed..  or slow speeds?

 What about Tennis?  If the tennis player was able to catch the ball at any time... then fire it back at will?   Obviously it takes skill to stop/catch the ball... but it also changes the overall difficulty of play.

 A ball thats moving at great speed, increasing with each hit, with changing spin, becomes harder and harder to keep under control.   To me, thats much more fun and exciting that stopping the ball and taking the 10mph corner.

Pinball isn't racing or tennis. Pinball also isn't shaving, making cookies, tying your shoes, holding your breath underwater, or running through a forest with your eyes closed at night. Just want to make sure you know.

[Xiaou2]

Way to counter argue.

 How about I type a bunch of random characters as a reply, as that has about the same value as the post you just made.


 ksdfjw4098ugf09we4jgvkelrgjelvrgkjew9y bj4oji5yn jfklhfgh

[Xiaou2]

Pinball IS what its designed to be.

 Originally, pinball was merely a ball dropping randomly through some metal nails.
Almost no user interaction at all.

 Next adding shakable action, with rubber bumpers and coils.
 
 Then flippers.

 Each game is designed to operate in different ways.  The principle is the same, but the game has changed, and can continue to change, like anything else.

[studmuff]

Pinball IS what its designed to be.

 Originally, pinball was merely a ball dropping randomly through some metal nails.
Almost no user interaction at all.

 Next adding shakable action, with rubber bumpers and coils.
 
 Then flippers.

 Each game is designed to operate in different ways.  The principle is the same, but the game has changed, and can continue to change, like anything else.

Exactly, the game went from one of chance to one of skill. 

You can play them how you want.  I'm not saying your wrong or right.  Everyone has their style of play. 

Your tennis analogy is true for tennis. 
It's very hard to catch a tennis ball moving at high speeds.  It's also hard to catch a pinball at high speeds. 
Most tennis players also don't run out on the court and hit every shot as hard as they can and wildly swing there arms.  There is finense, skill.  Lob shots, volleys, overheads, etc.  Ever hear of a drop shot.

[Jeff AMN]

Pinball IS what its designed to be.

 Originally, pinball was merely a ball dropping randomly through some metal nails.
Almost no user interaction at all.

 Next adding shakable action, with rubber bumpers and coils.
 
 Then flippers.

 Each game is designed to operate in different ways.  The principle is the same, but the game has changed, and can continue to change, like anything else.

You contradict yourself. You say pinball is what it was designed to be, but it was designed to be a game of luck. It's evolved into a game of skill, and flipper control is a skill. If you're not against evolution in the game, why would you want everybody to all of a sudden take a step back 50 years in the way they play pinball?

Don't trap the ball if you don't like it, but it's a huge part of the game today and many playfield layouts or modes demand that the player do it effectively.

[Jeff AMN]

This kind of incessant and pointless arguing is what killed rec.games.pinball.  How about one of you take some pictures of a game or talk about some repairs you did?

Only if you promise to argue about whether or not the game I'm working on is worth my time and how I should be restoring game X instead...

[TOK]

This kind of incessant and pointless arguing is what killed rec.games.pinball.  How about one of you take some pictures of a game or talk about some repairs you did?

C'mon dude. You seem to enjoy arguing and rec.games.pinball gets like 400 posts per day.  
This forum and KLOV are awesome, but I think RGP is still the best place for pin info by miles.

Edit to add: I think The reason Xaiou2 gets a lot of heat is not for his opinions, but for the way he states them -as if they're fact. I'm pretty new to owning my own pins, but I can't imagine trying to play without trapping at all. It'd be way less fun.

[studmuff]

This kind of incessant and pointless arguing is what killed rec.games.pinball.  How about one of you take some pictures of a game or talk about some repairs you did?

C'mon dude. You seem to enjoy arguing and rec.games.pinball gets like 400 posts per day.  
This forum and KLOV are awesome, but I think RGP is still the best place for pin info by miles.

Edit to add: I think The reason Xaiou2 gets a lot of heat is not for his opinions, but for the way he states them -as if they're fact. I'm pretty new to owning my own pins, but I can't imagine trying to play without trapping at all. It'd be way less fun.

Agree 100%

[ChadTower]

Pinball isn't racing or tennis. Pinball also isn't shaving, making cookies, tying your shoes, holding your breath underwater, or running through a forest with your eyes closed at night. Just want to make sure you know.

Is pinball sneaking into someone's yard and sticking a weiner in their grill?