EVERYONE STOP

Hey everyone stop.  Maybe the game companys are right about the rom issue.     check this out.

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=321849

[BobA]

A packaged set of 5 programs in a stick.

So stop what?

BobA

It was a joke about them thinking they can still make money on the old games...sorry.

[BobA]

Thats ok just missed the punchline.

Some companies are very strict in enforcing their copywrite and other companies have vanished.  Just remember don't ever get Disney mad  

[DaveMMR]

Even when companies release their old arcade games in packages they always mess up some mundane detail:

NAMCO MUSEUM for the PS2: sound messed up in Pac-Mania (at least on mine it is). No level intros when option set to 'Level Select' and vice versa.
NAMCO MUSEUM VOL 1 (N) for PS1: Pole Position doesn't have the announcer mumbling 'prepare to qualify/race' - though it's in the sound test menu.
ATARI ARCADE CLASSICS VOL. 2 for PS1: Gauntlet missing quite a few voices (characters don't say 'ouch')

Oh... I could go on...

I still purchase this classic comps. but I'm often stunned at how many little nuances from the coin-op get overlooked.  The copyright owners should embrace MAME and just slap the ROM images on a CD-ROM and sell it at a fair price (i.e. not $50) - much like Capcom did (except they gave it away as a premium with joystick purchase).  

[jakejake28]

what i really don't understand is why companies believe that MAME is costing them money. the way the arcade bussiness architecthure is set up, the PacMan in gameworks stopped earning Namco money the day it entered gameworks. after initial sales, they earn very little, correct? and if capcom no longer produces Street Fighter 2, why does it matter if someone can play it at home for free?

hopefully someone can shed some light on this for me, b/c in all seriousness i dont understand it...

[TalkingOctopus]

what i really don't understand is why companies believe that MAME is costing them money. the way the arcade bussiness architecthure is set up, the PacMan in gameworks stopped earning Namco money the day it entered gameworks. after initial sales, they earn very little, correct? and if capcom no longer produces Street Fighter 2, why does it matter if someone can play it at home for free?

hopefully someone can shed some light on this for me, b/c in all seriousness i dont understand it...

The bottom line is that most videogame companies don't want you to "waste" time playing old games when you "should" be out purchasing and playing new games.

[jakejake28]

The bottom line is that most videogame companies don't want you to "waste" time playing old games when you "should" be out purchasing and playing new games.

hmmm, never thought about it... but then, in theory, shouldnt they make the new games that is "should" be playing better, so that i dont "waste" my time on inferior games of the past?

[DaveMMR]

It's really all about protecting copyrights, intellectual property, yada yada yada.

Copyright law can be quite complicated.  

But there are quite a few games whose potential sales can be ruined when they can be gotten for free.  How many times has Pac-Man been released for a home system?   How about Donkey Kong (actually not enough come to think of it)?  Not to mention they're releasing another Williams Arcade Classics for the PS2 this fall.  There you have one of their problems with roms.  

Of course, for every Frogger that has seen re-release after re-release, there are about 100 Pooyan's that can basically only be experienced through emulation (and yes I'm aware of the Commodore 64 version of Pooyan -- 'twas just an example).  But just because a property is 'dormant' doesn't make it 'okay' to go about getting it for free, according to the law.

Don't minunderstand the post.  I'm just giving information from what I've read.  Otherwise, I'm totally pro-MAME and pro-ROMS.  There are thousands of games lost in the quicksand of time -- and even those that weren't just don't get done justice in 'translations' (see previous post).  There's a big moral difference in those that embrace MAME roms to those who are downloading pirated copies of new PC releases off of Kazaa.  

And yes, I was totally serious.  If companies released classic compliations as a disc with a group of ROM images for a fair price (instead of trying to re-program the games to work within the confines of a PS2, XBox, GC, etc.) I'd buy it.   Besides, that means I could start legally charging people to play on my cab.   j/k

 

[jerryjanis]

I saw this today and thought it was pretty good, and the same goes for Mame roms and Mame itself (open source software):

[grafixmonkey]

that little joystick with games in it popped up a while ago too.

See, what I'm wondering is, if you buy that...  do you have a legal license to play the roms in Mame?  Since you've essentially bought software licenses to play pac-man, galaga, etc. that are on the little joystick thing.

[nighthawk2099]

I saw this today and thought it was pretty good, and the same goes for Mame roms and Mame itself (open source software):

   -  oh boy....

[DaveMMR]

See, what I'm wondering is, if you buy that...  do you have a legal license to play the roms in Mame?  Since you've essentially bought software licenses to play pac-man, galaga, etc. that are on the little joystick thing.

From what I understand, no not really.

[IG-88]

I saw this today and thought it was pretty good, and the same goes for Mame roms and Mame itself (open source software):

are you freakin' kidding me!

[DaveMMR]

That poster was a joke from Modern Humorist* (the poor man's Onion) but I'm having trouble knowing if the jerryjanis is serious or joking.  

*although their book "Rough Draft" was pretty funny

[kspiff]

Hm.. you know I always thought that pic was funny, but I just realized that kid is downloading on an iMac.. even funnier

[Lilwolf]

btw, companies CAN make money off of old games.  They just don't know how.

1) Don't expect to make 20 - 30 bucks per title.  
2) Emulate the games, or ask MAME to be destributed with a set of legal roms.
3) Sell them.

or

1) Make is so you can download a rom from their website for a buck or two.  

Most people in the scene I've met spend thousands on this hobby.  What would be a little more for a license?  I really only play about 10 - 20 games.  I own 2 legally.  With the collection packs I own 10.  And I will probably try to get the rest with real PCB's when they come up on ebay or something.


Last... about mame hurting their sales.

Mame MADE the market for them.  They where not interested in the market and would never have spent the time / money to check to see if a market was there.  Mame made them money... but they couldn't compete with mame directly... and they didn't try to compete along side.

[DaveMMR]

Mame MADE the market for them

I don't see how MAME created a market for old titles all bu itself.  But realisticaly, MAME isn't entirely hurting sales of old titles, not the way Kazaa would hurt sales of CDs.  Let's just say that MAME, while not the hardest program to navigate, can be intimidating to the casual computer user.  And when I say casual user, I mean those who only really known how to sign onto AOL and not much else.  If they were into the oldies, they'd buy the collections for their home systems and just be done with it.

The game companies are not as gung-ho against downloading of ROMs as the RIAA is about downloading of songs.  That is to say, they don't have this nationwide campaign to stop it.   Only companies like Nintendo and Sega have put a stop to the ROMs on some sites, and that's mostly for their old systems.  

[Tailgunner]

I believe that had the MP3 scene stayed underground the RIAA wouldn't be raising such a fuss either. Making MP3 widespread and easy for the casual users to create and use forced the industry to protect their copyrights.

[tmasman]

See, what I'm wondering is, if you buy that...  do you have a legal license to play the roms in Mame?  Since you've essentially bought software licenses to play pac-man, galaga, etc. that are on the little joystick thing.

From what I understand, no not really.

Sorry...
The games on that "system" are not playing the same ROMs from the original games (the ROMs we have)... So... Nope... It doesn't justify your playing the ROMs you have.

[IG-88]

Mame MADE the market for them

I don't see how MAME created a market for old titles all bu itself.  But realisticaly, MAME isn't entirely hurting sales of old titles, not the way Kazaa would hurt sales of CDs.  Let's just say that MAME, while not the hardest program to navigate, can be intimidating to the casual computer user.  And when I say casual user, I mean those who only really known how to sign onto AOL and not much else.  If they were into the oldies, they'd buy the collections for their home systems and just be done with it.

Ya, my 10yr old was downloading songs by the bucketload when he figured out how. I put a stop to it when I found out about it. (his mother barely knows how to turn on a TV so she had no clue) He was even burning CD's for his buddies. (mad/kindaproud at same time  ) When I showed him my small MAME collection he was all excited, for about 5 minutes. He's big into games but thinks emulation is way to much of a hassle. This next generation, lazy lazy........  

[3dmacman]

I don't see the point of companies getting upset with the idea of mame and roms if they don't even support the games anymore ie, abandonware. It's like don't download the games we don't care about anymore.  Besides the whole point to mame is to document and rescue games from  oblivion.  

[paigeoliver]

I don't see the point of companies getting upset with the idea of mame and roms if they don't even support the games anymore ie, abandonware. It's like don't download the games we don't care about anymore.  Besides the whole point to mame is to document and rescue games from  oblivion.  

They SAY the point of Mame is to "document" the games, and that playing them is a nice side effect. But if you read the personal webpages of the developers it seems that the point of Mame is to play the games, and none of them seem to claim to own the boardsets they play.

[hooded_paladin]

I don't see the point of companies getting upset with the idea of mame and roms if they don't even support the games anymore ie, abandonware. It's like don't download the games we don't care about anymore.  Besides the whole point to mame is to document and rescue games from  oblivion.  

They SAY the point of Mame is to "document" the games, and that playing them is a nice side effect. But if you read the personal webpages of the developers it seems that the point of Mame is to play the games, and none of them seem to claim to own the boardsets they play.

at least they're honest about their purposes SOMEWHERE

[DaveMMR]

He's big into games but thinks emulation is way to much of a hassle

Yup, even with MAME32 (the one I use the regular desktop computer) a game won't work correctly and most people would just throw in the towel.  In the tech support field I've noticed one thing: people don't like to fiddle with options.

But when it comes to MP3's, you'll see how quickly young kids figure out how to work the burning software.  My niece is the same age and she's already a guru with Kazaa.  But she buys CDs too so I won't get too upset with her.

But if you read the personal webpages of the developers it seems that the point of Mame is to play the games

Oh yeah, I've always noticed that "wink wink" vibe in MAME.net's mission statement.  Yes we are keeping old and forgotten arcade games alive.  But everyone's aware that these games are to play.  

 

I don't see the point of companies getting upset with the idea of mame and roms if they don't even support the games anymore ie, abandonware.

There isn't a big outcry from game companies to stop MAME roms.  There may be some internal grumbling but to spend the time, money and effort to do what the RIAA did, it's not worth it.  Although, there have been times copyright holders (such as Nintendo, Sega, etc.) have asked webmasters to remove ROMS.  But otherwise they're more concerned with images of current or semi-recent systems like SuperNES, N64, Genesis, Playstation, etc. since there still is money to be had.

And from what I've heard, a lot of the games' original creators do like MAME.

[eightbit]

The biggest difference in Mame and MP3's is that for the most part people aren't downloading 20 year old songs they are downloading songs that are available at every music store in the country and thus not buying those disks.  If mame started emulating current arcade hits you would probably see the arcade industry get tougher.

[jakejake28]

If mame started emulating current arcade hits you would probably see the arcade industry get tougher.

the fact that the arcade industry brings in only a percent of what home consoles earn does help MAME stay out of the limeliight tho

[paigeoliver]

The biggest difference in Mame and MP3's is that for the most part people aren't downloading 20 year old songs they are downloading songs that are available at every music store in the country and thus not buying those disks.  If mame started emulating current arcade hits you would probably see the arcade industry get tougher.

The OTHER difference between MAME and mp3s is that people DO download 20 year old songs, BUT those twenty year old songs are largely still available new in the store.  While 20 year old arcade games are almost totally unavailable new (Ok, you can buy a few, but not many).

But, on the flip side, music can be recorded quite legally due to the home recording act of whenever that was, but on the flip side there is NO rom recording act whatsoever.

ALso, as others have said, most of the game copyright holders are completely unwilling to release any versions of the game that have the functionality of the Mame versions. Yeah, sure you can play Pac-Man on your gamecube using an Analog controller, and the wrong screen orientation. Whatever, I am not paying for that, not when MAME works so much better.

Here is what I would like to see.

You SHOULD be able to buy the roms. Download or CDROM, does not matter. What does matter is the license you get. I would like to see it where each rom you buy comes with a serial number sticker, which you can place on your cabinet, or computer case (or wherever). That way all those operators that are still putting classics out there can stop repairing them all the time, and just start using more reliable PCs instead.

[jakejake28]

You SHOULD be able to buy the roms. Download or CDROM, does not matter. What does matter is the license you get. I would like to see it where each rom you buy comes with a serial number sticker, which you can place on your cabinet, or computer case (or wherever). That way all those operators that are still putting classics out there can stop repairing them all the time, and just start using more reliable PCs instead.

i think thats a great idea, actually, a genius one. the only problem is: the arcade scene in the USA is almost dead, and it will be in less than 10 yrs. its a poor business model, and the console scene is too profitable: your gonna sell more, make 'em cheaper, and it'll get more publicity.

sure, companies can sell to only the japanese and europeans, but even they play console games, and companies know where the profit is.

i know that there will be a Dave and Busters or Gameworks for years, but companies are drawing support, and all were gonna see in a few years are SF17: Super Duper Platinum and Dance Dance Revolution MAX to the 41st. its so sad, but its true.

[paigeoliver]

Well, yes, arcades are dead, but the home arcade scene is booming, and I am sure a lot of people would like to be able to own legitimate games, instead of bootlegs.

[jakejake28]

Well, yes, arcades are dead, but the home arcade scene is booming, and I am sure a lot of people would like to be able to own legitimate games, instead of bootlegs.

i am not questioning the end users demand, cause i wanna be playing legally myself, what i am discounting is the companies supply.

did you think of this: supplying your roms via a disc still requires an emu to play. what the company is doing is whetting the lips of gamers. those who buy it may find instructions to MAME, and where do they go from there?

[paigeoliver]

What I am specifically thinking about is my Battlezone machine. Which is missing the boardset and monitor, and will be using a PC and kiosk monitor (along with all the original smoke, mirrors, overlays, and backdrop artworks), to create a fully working game.

The only piece of the picture missing is that it is still not a "legal" game. I wouldn't mind paying for a nice little Battlezone license sticker to slap on the PC inside.

[aj6500]

Great poster.  I'm using it as wallpaper, is that wrong?