Any interest in Leaf Switch Joysticks?

[armi0024]

There are some reasonably priced leaf joysticks I found overseas, I would probably swap the handle out so they had 6mm threading (they are only available in red otherwise) Let me know if there's any interest. I was thinking around 15 with the shaft swap out.  Sorry for the poor picture, I was snapping with my cell.
Just wanted to ask since the leaf switches for buttons are FINALLY arriving!

[mgb]

I would be most interested in a stick with all the qualities of a Sanwa JLW (with its true 4-way, 8-way switching) but with leafs. But I'm probably dreaming

[armi0024]

Not a dream, I have a few ideas drawn up, it's just a matter of getting the capital together and seeing if there's interest.  I had a quote out on something that would have worked well for that, in a few months I may bite the bullet and invest in some molds.  We will see.

[TopJimmyCooks]

Interested.  I just installed a Happ dedicated 4 way in my cp and, while I'm going to give it some time and break it in, I think it will be replaced by a leaf joystick soon.  it must have ability to be restricted to 4 way, switchable would be nice too. 

Are your pushbuttons going to be Rollie type or actual leaf button plunger only type? 

[Grasshopper]

I'd definitely be interested in a couple.

Incidentally, the joystick appears to be the same as the ones that RandyT is selling:

link

[jasonbar]

Sounds attractive.

On my current gigantopanel, I have:

4x WICO 4" 8-way "Robotron" sticks

2x Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus 8-way

2x Wico mechanical rotary 8-way


On the latter 4, I've gone to great lengths to try to remove the horrible micro-switch clicking sounds: the put-tiny-folded-pieces-of-paper-in-the-microswitch-mech trick (but then I was having problems of uneven actuation of cardinal & diagonal directions), & hacking GGG's micro-leaf switches to fit on the joystick base (again, too much work & too fussy about easy diagonal actuation).

I finally ended up with minimal paper insertion in the microswitches--the sticks play fine now but are still too loud for my taste.

So, if there's a quiet option for those 2 joysticks, I'd buy it in a second!

Thanks,
-Jason

[RandyT]

Incidentally, the joystick appears to be the same as the ones that RandyT is selling:

But a quick comparison of the two will show that it is not, in the most important of ways.  The angle at which the above photo was taken shows neither the "switches" (and I use that term loosely), nor the large and tall plastic collar surrounding the shaft on the unit.

[armi0024]

@TopJimmyCooks: The buttons will be Rollie Type.  Short term I don't know if we'll have switchable but I do have some plans for a versatile joystick that would be switchable, and even have an octagon gate option.

@Grasshopper: I haven't seen Randy's stick in person, but I does look similar and like he has modified some of the things we would change about this.  if we were to use this stick it would need a new top plate, new gold leafs, and a new shaft so it could accept any ball top.  We were debating hollow shafts to allow for lit tops if wanted.

@jasonbar: You can swap the Mag-Stik micros for our upgrade kit, but you will have to trim the metal leafs: http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/microswitches/239-seimitsu-ls-32-zippyy-joystick-upgrade-kit.html

[mgb]

@jasonbar: You can swap the Mag-Stik micros for our upgrade kit, but you will have to trim the metal leafs: http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/microswitches/239-seimitsu-ls-32-zippyy-joystick-upgrade-kit.html

I assume that would also go for the Sanwa JLW?

[Necro]

armi, can you get a few pictures of this from different angles.  Would definitely be interested in it's overall build and possibly grabbing one.

 

...ok...not really...I just want to see this derail completely like the other one did on the joystick mounting depth.

[jasonbar]

@jasonbar: You can swap the Mag-Stik micros for our upgrade kit, but you will have to trim the metal leafs: http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/microswitches/239-seimitsu-ls-32-zippyy-joystick-upgrade-kit.html

Howdy-

I ordered 4 of the Zippyy Joystick Upgrade Kits, each of which has 4 microswitches, for only $3 a set.  A steal.  They arrived today--fast service from Paradise Arcade!


The bad news first:
I installed them in my 2 Mag-Stik Plus joysticks.  I pulled off an existing switch, used it as a guide to measure where to cut the metal leafs, & went to town w/ the Dremel & an abrasive cut-off disk (after determining that the leafs are made of a steel far too hard to cut w/ tin snips or dikes.  It's a straight & easy swap.  Unfortunately, I'm finding that the joystick is now too diagonal-happy.  That is, it's very difficult to go up, down, left, or right.  My joystick diagonals vs. cardinals test is to pull up Smash TV, go into the switch test mode, then rotate the joystick around in a circle at a constant velocity.  I listen for the audio cue that indicates a switch closing or opening.  I like to hear the noise occur at a regular interval, indicating that the stick is spending as much of its round-the-clock trip in a diagonal direction as it is in a cardinal direction.  The stick spends almost no time in a cardinal direction--it's almost always diagonal.  I tried playing some Truxton II & Gauntlet & confirmed that it was very difficult to go in a cardinal direction.  Perhaps this is a result of the much lighter spring force of the Zippyy switch vs. the stock switch?  Perhaps a smaller actuator will do the trick?  I could put the actuator on a shaft on my power drill, spin it up, & hit it with some sandpaper.  Does that sound like a sound solution?


Edit: Nevermind the misreported bad news above--the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus is already diagonal-biased in its stock configuration.  The switches from Paradise Arcade don't make that bias any worse--I *think* that they leave the bias unchanged or that they *may* slightly improve the diagonal/cardinal bias. :Edit


The good news second:
Update the Paradise Arcade website!  These switches are a direct, no-mod-required, drop-in replacement for the switches in a Happ mechanical rotary stick!  I swapped out the switches in both of my Happ mechanical rotary sticks & played some Truxton II & Ikari Warriors with both of them.  Wonderful!  Very quiet, light feel, & the diagonals & cardinals are well-balanced.


Thanks,
-Jason

[armi0024]

Jason...Q'bert stick?

As silly as this is, Zippy and Zippyy are two different things.  Zippy is actually company that produces a variety of projects, Zippyy is a Chinese joystick, they actually are not related.  We have tested those on the Seimitsu and Zippyy joysticks and the outcomes are very popular, but it sounds like we need to cross "Mag-Stick" off the upgrade list.  My guess is that it has to do with the leaf length and geometry.  It sounds like the angle over the micros is two steep so the corners are more sensitive. 
I would actually try bending them slightly back towards the micro switch, over where the micro plunger is. this will delay the response in the corners.
The next time we restock I will get some of the shorter lever arms as they are fairly popular in many joysticks.  I know you ordered these hoping they would work for the Mag-Stik so just let me know if you want to return them.

On your second comment....WOOHOO, we'll make that update.

[bobotech]

This thread makes me wonder what kind of joysticks the Wico atari compatible hand held sticks were?  They have little black switches but they aren't micro-switches, they have 2 leafs that push together when the stick pushes against it. 

These are the handheld bat handle sticks.  At one time I was thinking about mounting a pair of them under a control panel just because I have like 15 of them and figured it would be an easy cheap way to get a control panel.

[Gray_Area]

This thread makes me wonder what kind of joysticks the Wico atari compatible hand held sticks were?...At one time I was thinking about mounting a pair of them under a control panel just because I have like 15 of them and figured it would be an easy cheap way to get a control panel.

I bought two USB remakes a while back with this possibility in mind. Haven't done anything with them yet.

But a quick comparison of the two will show that it is not, in the most important of ways.  The angle at which the above photo was taken shows neither the "switches" (and I use that term loosely), nor the large and tall plastic collar surrounding the shaft on the unit.

I'm not seeing these differences you speak of.

[armi0024]

I have not seen the bottom of Randy's sticks, but I'm sure I will soon, however, these are not his leaf switches which he says he installed.  Also there is a color for mounting through wood panels that from his pictures looks like he took off or replaced. I am sure his leaf switches are higher quality than the ones on this stick but then again that is why we are also replacing these leafs if we go ahead with this stick.

Given the current digressions in other threads, I'm trying to just simply answer this question about Randy's items and would prefer if this thread avoided the pattern others have taken.

[RandyT]

I'm not seeing these differences you speak of.

The immediately visible differences when compared to ours are the custom part we manufacture to change the structure of the top, and our high-quality True-Leaf Pro™ switches.  If the photo was taken at a different angle, it would be more obvious.

[jasonbar]

What I tried to tone down the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus overzealous diagonals:

1 - I put side-by-side the stock stick from the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus & the Zippy switch from Paradise Amusements.  The Zippy switch seems to actuate just a hair earlier than the Ultimarc switch, but it's difficult to be sure.

2 - I contemplated using the now-extraneous switches from the Happ mechanical rotary sticks, but those have long leafs.  I didn't want to trim more leafs, so I attempted to swap in the leaf from the stock Ultimarc switch or the Zippy switch, but the leaf pivot bar is too large to fit into the pivot holes in the Happ mechanical rotary switch.  Nevermind.

3 - The actuator on the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus isn't your usual cylinder--it's got a funky octagonal portion & a cylindrical portion w/ 2 slots to accept the 8-way/4-way switching fork.  So, it didn't seem like a good idea to shave down the actuator OD.  It's already showing wear at the 2 slots mentioned previously.

4 - Looking at the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus in action, the actuator lines up pretty much perfectly with the switch plunger, so I'm not sure how much difference bending the leafs would make, if any--it might instead bias each diagonal region towards one of the cardinal directions & not its neighbor.  I'm also wary of performing a mod that's difficult to reproduce exactly from switch to switch.  (At least *I* find it difficult, even with a fixture/jig, and by now, I'm sure you're concluded that I'm rather fussy & can be a perfectionist...)  So, I fancied that altogether removing the leafs from the Zippy switches might change the actuation location enough to make diagonals less dominant in the Mag-Stik Plus.  Nope, the actuator won't even actuate the switch if there's no leaf in there.  Nevermind.

5 - Hmmm, a shorter plunger would make the stick need to throw a little farther off center to actuate a switch. I checked my entire inventory of microswitches to see if another had a slightly shorter plunger to swap in.  Nope.

6 - A safe, consistent, easy mod to the switch to require more stick throw before the switch closes would be to shorten the plunger a little.  The stock plunger in the Zippy switch is .302" long.  The Zippy leaf is .024" thick, & recall that removing the leaf resulted in no switches closing, so I had to file less than .024".  I took 4 Zippy switches & filed the plungers down to .295".  The behavior improved a bit, but the diagonals still dominated somewhat.

7 - At this point, since I have 2 Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus sticks, I reverted one back to its stock switches & compared against the Zippy switches w/ plungers filed to .295".  The stock stick is actually already pretty diagonal-dominant, so the behavior that I was attributing to the switch swap was really inherent in the stick itself--probably a result of the limitation imposed by the clever 4-way 8-way restrictor switchplate.  Bryan, I apologize for my mis-reporting of the results of swapping in your Zippy switches.  I don't think they actually make the stick perform any worse than the stock switches do--keep advertising these switches as a drop-in replacement for the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus!

8 - I continued my filing of Zippy plungers, but more cautiously.  .292"-.293" was my next stop.  One thing I learned as a machinist was that it's a lot easier to take off material than to put it on...    .292"-.293" is better...

9 - Next up, .290".  Diagonals vs. cardinals ratio is a tad better.  I played some Smash TV, Truxton II, & Gauntlet to test.  Not bad.  Better than stock, but not as good as a Happ mechanical rotary (to be expected).  At this plunger height, the switch activates pretty much when the joystick hits its limit of travel, so I can't decrease the plunger height any more, lest the switches not close at all or lest they require too much force on the stick to close.  Remember, removal of the .024" leaf resulted in no switch actuation, & I removed .012" from the plunger, so I couldn't really file any more.



Yes, I'm literally splitting hairs when it comes to these dimensions.  Perhaps it comes from spending years designing cameras for the next Mars rover, where we had to hold optics to +/-.0001".  I'm not tooting my own horn--rather, I'm explaining my mentality when it comes to mechanisms...    Now, my calipers are old & busted & not calibrated, so I can't stand by the absolute value of the .290" dimension, but I'm confident that my calipers were consistent to themselves & that I removed .012" from the plunger height, whatever that height was, exactly.

As for filing technique, it's not that hard to file to within .001" tolerance.  Use a fine file, apply light pressure, & rotate the part after each stroke, as it's difficult to file completely flat to a surface--everybody adds a little angle bias to their file stroke.


As for a return, thanks for the offer, but no way.  I'm keeping these switches, thanks!  Rather, I shall order 2 more 4-packs, as I just performed a test to swap these in for my Happ 8-way Trigger Stick & they're lovely (after I remove the metal leaf).

-Jason


PS--Q*Bert stick?  Good one.  I've already got one of my Ultimarc Mag-Stik Pluses mounted at 45deg, for Q*Bert, Q*Bert's Qubes, & Congo Bongo!  

[armi0024]

Haha, you know, we do have those switches without leafs....

[jasonbar]

Can't hurt to have extra leafs sitting around!  =D

Thanks,
-Jason

[LeedsFan]

Why can't someone just repro the original Wico sticks? I hear they are the best of the best. Living in the UK they are very hard to come by and I just bought three used ones from the States. I will probably have to refurb them quite a bit. But if someone were to faithfully repro the model I'd have got those instead.

By the way... is it possible to turn an 8-way Wico into a 4-way? Or were the 4-ways different mouldings?

[Xiaou2]

I agree.  The Wicos are some of the best out there... and would really sell well as a repo.  Most especially for Robotron... Arguably the best game ever created.

[armi0024]

Working on it