Controls.dat (Someone with graphical skills needed)

[Howard_Casto]

My viewer is coming along as is sirps excellent submission database.  

I would appreciate some help in the graphical department.  I could do it all myself, but then you guys would have to wait longer, so I thought I would at least ask.

To make the backdrops for the labels I woudl like some detailed drawings and/or renderings of various arcade controls.  

I know beggers shouldn't be choosers, but this is what I need:  

All controls should be an absolute overhead view.
All controls should be of the same scale.  (Maybe 1 to 1 scale to simplify things?)

So you don't have to make the controls in several colors, the best thing to do would be make the "colored" parts an absolute gray color(with grayscale shading and highlights of course).  Then they can be colorized in photoshop.  

Ideally I would like all of the controls as layers in a photoshop document.  Then it could be distributed as a template.  

3D Renderings would be best, but if you are artistic enough to give accurate representations then have at it.  

I hope someone will take on this part of the project as I really don't have time for it.  If you do then you will be given your due credit, and I will personally give you the first working version of the controls viewer to beta test once it's completed.  

[Frostillicus]

HC, SirP: I have some questions:

A) Do you have a list of the controls you need?

I'm guessing,
8-way  (does it matter what brand on any of these?)
4-way
spinner
button
start buttons?
trackball
steering wheel?
trigger stick
others....

B) Also, you want 1 to 1 - is that in relation to each other, or do you actually want full size controls.  

C) Do you want graphical labels (little arrows for 8way, etc).

D)What resolution do you want them in?  Ever going to print them (like 200dpi is a compromise).  I guess people could SAVE FOR WEB... when it gets time to build their own template.

I can give it a shot - my 3dmax is screwed up ever since I reinstalled XP, but I can get them to look pretty good using photoshop/illustrator.  

[Howard_Casto]

Contact MrSalty, he is also working on this and can fill you in.  

About the labels though..... no as this is more of a tool for people to recreate their own control panel in high res (rather than some crappy out of focus picture of their cp).  It'll be their responsibility to handle the overlay, but as it's their overlay, they should have access to scans.  

Brands don't really matter on the joysticks as all you will see is the top, and those are virtually identical.  A bat style, a ball top and maybe top fire versions of each are all that we would need.  

I personally want the resolution to be BIG  as in real scale.  The distrobution package for the viewer probably won't use them at that res, but while we are at it, this type of thing might be useful for designing layouts, overlays or other cab related stuff.  dpi isn't super important though.  That is unless someone really wants to print out a full scale image of a trackball and frame it, in which case I worry about them.  

[SirPoonga]

A) Do you have a list of the controls you need?

I'm guessing,
8-way  (does it matter what brand on any of these?)
4-way
spinner
button
start buttons?
trackball
steering wheel?
trigger stick
others....

This one I can sorta answer, HC will have to fill you in on the rest.  The template stuff is HC's side of the project.  Though HC said something like MrSaLTy volunteered.

Now, I'm not sure what control constants HC is basing this off of.  The mame-like constants we are using or the descriptions.   I can get you a list we are using right now once I find that information out too

[Frostillicus]

Well, while I am waiting for the answers (see last post), I got started on some of the controls (little slow at work   ).  The photoshop file is to scale, but this pic is smaller for easier viewing on the message board.

Each control (8-way, 4-way, button, etc) is it's own Layer Set, with each part of that control making up the set.  Example: Button 1 has the inside portion and outside portion as part of the set, each with it's own colorable layer.  8-Way has the top of the stick, the shadow, and the joystick disc all on their own layer.  This seems like the easiest and most flexible way for someone to create their own custom layout.

Each part of the control is ready to be colorized - just click on the layer effect (usually 'overlay') to change colors.    

Edit - Heh we are all typing at once - any feedback?
2nd EDIT: Removed pic - updated one is below.

[SirPoonga]

HC, are you making this viewer with directx?  Could you have a button that is white then put a color mask over it to make it a color?  Would that be fruitful?

For the list of controls needed, do you need the list of mame-like constants or the list of descriptions?

Frost, this may be nit picky and an optical illusion, but your balltop shadow looks to be at a slightly different angle.

[Frostillicus]

Frost, this may be nit picky and an optical illusion, but your balltop shadow looks to be at a slightly different angle.

They are the same angle..Must be an illusion probably caused by the shape of the bat handle.   I doubt many people have a 4 way directly under the 8-way in any case
 

[SirPoonga]

Oh, my opinion, but it's HC's call on this.  I don't like the shadow, the more I look at the pics the more un-natural the controls look.  Then I went out to my cabinet, hey, there isn't much for shadows with all the ambient light.  Luckily it's just not displaying a layer if that needs to change

The shading is good though.

[Frostillicus]

Well, the only reason I used a shadow at all is to distinguish one type of joystick from the other (they all look the same from absolute top).  And it is just a matter of turning off the layer - so user preference I suppose  

[Justin]

Sorry to barge in, but was exactly is this viewer about?  I'm curious.  Any info somewhere?  Links?

[SirPoonga]

It's for the controls.dat project and FE developers.  http://fe.donkeyfly.com.

In short, it's a project to document the controls and labelling the controls the games in mame use in a format FE devs can use in their FEs.

[Justin]

It's for the controls.dat project and FE developers.  http://fe.donkeyfly.com.

In short, it's a project to document the controls and labelling the controls the games in mame use in a format FE devs can use in their FEs.

That's awesome.   I hope you have considered making this TCP capable, in such a way that all information is retrieved from a central internet database (that you or others host?).  Makes sense to have a centralized controls.dat as well as associated images, on a server somewhere -- this way peopoe don't have to update files etc.   If I understood correctly what you are trying to do here, there is really not much data to transfer.  Don't know about people out there, but my cab is Internet ready  

Either way, this is an awesome idea -- can't wait to integrate this into my cab.

[Frostillicus]

Here is an updated pic - I forgot to take into account the width of the control panel material (wood, mdf, etc) when making the shadows so they looked a little longer than usual....

8-way - Bat handle
8-way - Ball Top
4-way - little ms.pacman one
Ls-30
buttons
3" trackball (need mounting plate?)
1.5" spinner

Edit- I just made a cumulative pic below.

[Justin]

I'll just jump in to say these are absolutely beautiful.  very professional job.    AWESOME!

[MrSaLTy]

Here is what howard basically told me..... He wants fairly high resolutions of each control, shown in absolute top down view, done in grayscale ( or color using only graytones).  This way, he can make them different colors in the program and not have to have a version for each color.  They can be in seperate files for each control but must be proportionate to each other in size.   This doesn't mean that they have to be the same resolution but need to match each other in size when on screen together.  At least that how I understood it.  I think that he wants the images to be proportionate in horizontal vs vertical resolution too... ie, 640x640 etc.  I threw a trackball at him last night to see if it was the kind of thing he was looking for and he said it was.  

Now I'm not saying that people can't make better pics then I can and I'm sure he would like a bunch to choose from.  So anyone can make more if they like.  The pic I did was 640x640..... I'll link it so you can get the idea.

Also, he said formats .bmp .jpg .png it doesnt matter.

HC, If you want to correct anything I said, feel free.

[SirPoonga]

It's for the controls.dat project and FE developers.  http://fe.donkeyfly.com.

In short, it's a project to document the controls and labelling the controls the games in mame use in a format FE devs can use in their FEs.

That's awesome.   I hope you have considered making this TCP capable, in such a way that all information is retrieved from a central internet database (that you or others host?).  Makes sense to have a centralized controls.dat as well as associated images, on a server somewhere -- this way peopoe don't have to update files etc.   If I understood correctly what you are trying to do here, there is really not much data to transfer.  Don't know about people out there, but my cab is Internet ready  

Either way, this is an awesome idea -- can't wait to integrate this into my cab.

Well, the info will be stored at fe.donkeyfly.com.  The final result will be the dat file (in ini and xml file format), FE dev utilities, and HC's viewer.  I might mae some classes for different languages (or take submissions from the community) to parse and use the xml file.


Frosty, I bet you did those in illustrater and they are vector even though you said photoshop.

[Frostillicus]

SirP:  close - I used Illustrator for the basic shapes but photoshop for putting it all together.

----

The templates I'm creating are very flexible in how you can use them, not just for controls.dat (though that is the motivation for creation here).  They will be full size, at 200dpi, which is plenty of res for controls dat and printing.  If you want to use just the trackball you can copy that layer set to a new image and place it exactly how you'd like it.  All colors are done with a layer effect, meaning you can turn them off and/or change them.

I am assuming HC knows what he wants better than I do   , so providing a photoshop doc with all the controls he needs in clear layer sets would be, IMHO, the best way to go.

[Howard_Casto]

Sweet those look great!  Imo your trackball image looks a little off though.  If you look at salty's it has the plastic ring you see and your doesn't.  I might have to mix and match.  


To answer everyones questions.  No the viewer won't be dx driven for compatability reasons.  As a matter of fact the viewer will initially only support one image, namely the background image.  So this template you guys are bulding will help users make the bg image with minimum effort.  so at this time control constants and all that bs mean nothing.  

HOWEVER in the future versions you will have an option of linking an image to each label and only have it displayed when the label is filled.  This way the viewer can be used for other things I didn't intend it for.  So it's important that these images are built.  

Ok the easy ones are done.  No how about some t2 guns, steering wheels, ddr pads, lightguns and paper boy handle bars.    j/k (sort of)

[SirPoonga]

Ok, here's what isin our database right now, a good list to start on  Obviously many of these will be represented by the same graphic.


Just Buttons
2-way Joystick (Horizontal)
2-way Joystick (Vertical)
4-way Joystick
8-way Joystick
Dual 2-way Joysticks (Horizontal)
Dual 2-way Joysticks (Vertical)
Dual 4-way Joysticks
Dual 8-way Joysticks
8-way Triggerstick w/1 button
8-way Triggerstick w/2 buttons
8-way Rotory Joystick(Optical)
8-way Rotory Joystick(Mechanical)
Trackball
Spinner
Roller(Vertical Dial)
360 Steering Wheel
270 Steering Wheel
Analog Stick
Flightstick (Analog)
Lightgun
Analog Gun
Throttle (Paddle)
Throttle (Stick)
Pedal (Microswitch)
Pedal (Analog)
Pedal2 (Analog)
Hi-Low Shifter
4 Gear Shifter
Paddle (Analog)
Paddle (Microswitch)

[Frostillicus]

I've read the concepts of controls.dat - I guess I just don't understand why you would need some controls created - like analog rollers and a paperboy assembly.  Who uses these on their control panels?

My understanding is that you need a set of templates that the average person can use to recreate their mame control panel on-screen - so when they select a game, that image will pop up with the correct labels on them.  

I know some people use T2 guns (but not many), but is it your intention of getting templates for every specific control (even if it was only used on one game)? In which case why not just use a picture of the control panel instead of re-creating the original?  

Just curious

ps Obviously the stroke around the trackball can be changed to replicate the 'ring' more...

[SirPoonga]

Why not represent each control?

You don't want to use a pic of the original control panel as you want to show the user where on his/her control panel everything is mapped.

Actually, for my FE I want to turn these images into icon to display on screen of what the game used for controls.

[Howard_Casto]

But you haven't seen the faq I'm guessing.  (Probably because it isn't public yet. )

Controls.dat has three goals.  

#1 To document the original controls used on the physical arcade game's cabinets.

#2 To document the relationship between said controls and how they are emulated in mame, in terms of input methods.  

#3 To use this relationship to make a coorelation between the two, so developers can do a number of things.  

The side effect of  #3 for me just happens to be that I can use it to make a viewer, linking a person's real panel, with a games function labels.  However there is no specific use for the dat.  Many developers are planning to use it similar to how sirp will.  I plan on integrating some of the data into dk, to further enhance the gamelist filters.  One of the secondary functions of the viewer is I've set it up to optionally show the original control panel layout of the game.  As good control panel images are very hard to come by, but overlay scans aren't so hard to find, people can use the controls you guys are making to remaster classic layouts.  

For the record, though, I wouldn't go overboard.  A steering wheel, t2 guns (yes they are used much more often than you think), a lightgun, a flight stick and a star wars yoke should do for 99% of the games out there.  

Do whatever you feel like doing though, I really appreciate the help and no one is cracking a whip under you guys.  

[Frostillicus]

So I think I have a better understanding - I can probably whip up (lol)  the other controls over the next week or so...they'll take a little longer but I like to do things right the first time.  

I'm just happy to contribute - this has the potential of being a great resource.  My knowledge of xml is limited to a 3 day workshop at work, of which I've used it all about twice editing an xbox menu app skin...which made the grey matter hurt...so I'll stick to the making it look good

[SirPoonga]

XMl is super easy.  It's the schemas that get me.

Anyway I am coding wizards to submit games to be added to controls.dat.  It's in beta, hopefully by the end of next week most of the bugs will be worked out.  uRebel found many bugs and has been very helpful.  Most of the bugs are stupid, as usual, but are usually because of the behavior of mame isn't accurately represented.

After this next major bug/features I have to punch out it is mostly minor issues which can be worked on as needed.  I haven't done the code to output to ini or xml yet, though that should take a day or two once I get to that stage.  That will hopefully come in two weeks.

In other words no rush. on graphics.  I also have final week and such scoming up soon.

Frosty, if you want a sneak peak to get an idea PM me.

[Frostillicus]

Good luck with finals  

Edit - I just made a cumulative pic below.

[Jakobud]

I like the artwork you are putting up Frost, however I think you need to lighten up the shadows. They could be a little distracting.

Now, one thing about all of this that I am confused on, how come, Howard, you are wanting someone to come up with these standard graphics for each control instead of letting the end-user come up with his own graphics?

[Snarbald]

I like the artwork you are putting up Frost, however I think you need to lighten up the shadows. They could be a little distracting.

Now, one thing about all of this that I am confused on, how come, Howard, you are wanting someone to come up with these standard graphics for each control instead of letting the end-user come up with his own graphics?

Perhaps he wants it to download with a default graphics set?

[Howard_Casto]

I like the artwork you are putting up Frost, however I think you need to lighten up the shadows. They could be a little distracting.

Now, one thing about all of this that I am confused on, how come, Howard, you are wanting someone to come up with these standard graphics for each control instead of letting the end-user come up with his own graphics?

Because I've seen the graphical ability of some of the people around here and it ain't pretty.    Seriously though, I really doubt someone wants to spend several hours just to make a background image to put labels on top of.  I'm just trying to make the application as user friendly as possible.  Btw frosty, everything looks fantastic as always.  Keep up the great work.  

[Howard_Casto]

p.s.  When frosty and salty are done I would like to get the template converted into as many formats as possible.  

Anyone have any suggestions?  Also is anyone familiar enough with both photoshop and paint shop pro to convert the templates?  If we get those two formats than that should take care of 90% of the people.  100% if some linux freak (err I mean user)  wants to convert it into a format gimp can use.  

[Frostillicus]

Glad you all like them so far.  As you can probably guess...had a little too much freetime today..

As for the shadows, they look less 'intense' on a regular CP overlay and not something so stark as a bright white background.

[Howard_Casto]

Nice cones.  (Did I just say that to a guy?)

[)p(]

I like the artwork you are putting up Frost, however I think you need to lighten up the shadows. They could be a little distracting.

Now, one thing about all of this that I am confused on, how come, Howard, you are wanting someone to come up with these standard graphics for each control instead of letting the end-user come up with his own graphics?

Because I've seen the graphical ability of some of the people around here and it ain't pretty.    Seriously though, I really doubt someone wants to spend several hours just to make a background image to put labels on top of.  I'm just trying to make the application as user friendly as possible.  Btw frosty, everything looks fantastic as always.  Keep up the great work.  

just take a pic of the cp panel might be even more easy for people with a digital camera.  

[Frostillicus]

I didn't want to just keep adding a new pic everytime I made a new controls, so I figured I could make one pic and just keep changing it.  and cut's down on saints/PJ's webspace (every little bit helps ).  

anyways - have plans for steering wheel and shifter next.

[jakejake28]

Anyone have any suggestions?  Also is anyone familiar enough with both photoshop and paint shop pro to convert the templates?  If we get those two formats than that should take care of 90% of the people.  100% if some linux freak (err I mean user)  wants to convert it into a format gimp can use.  

we linux freaks can open .jpeg, .bmp, .gif, .ai, .eps, .psd, and a hell of a lot of others. just for the record

[Howard_Casto]

Open badly yes.  I've seen what a psd doc looks like opened on a linux viewer, and quite frankly it screws up half of the layers.  It would need to be converted into a more linux friendly format.

[jginiso]

this looks awesome

[tmasman]

100% if some linux freak (err I mean user)  wants to convert it into a format gimp can use.  

Gimp also has a Windoze port... I use it all the time.
Gimp's native format is xcf, & it supports layers & all that good stuff.