KISS CP planning questions.

[Tumerboy]

Hey guys, I'm in the early planning stages for an upcoming build.
I'd like to keep it simple. I like the simplicity and elegance of Kneivel's woody panel.
This will be my first cab, so bear with me here.

My plan at the moment is, 2 players using U360's, 6 buttons each. Coin and player each, a trackball, 2 mouse buttons, and a spinner.

What are the arguments for 7 or even 8 buttons?  I do like fighters, but couldn't think of any I played a bunch that had 7. Though maybe they were supposed to, and I was just missing out?

If I'm using U360's, do I still need a dedicated, separate 4-way with it's own buttons somewhere?  Or do the 360's do a good enough job to replace that?  I don't think I care about the feel of a physically restricted stick, but I'm not positive on that I guess?

Personally I like the idea of using the trackball as the comps mouse as well. I know some think that's silly. If I do want to use it as a mouse though, should I have dedicates mouse buttons? Or is there a better way, like having some player one buttons pull double duty?  How do you assign buttons to mouse functionality?

If everything I've planned out above sounds good, where would you put the lone spinner?  My instinct would be centered above the trackball, but I know some dislike that cuz they smash their fingers.

Thanks in advance.
-Nick

[Lilwolf]

8 buttons are not needed... very very few games will use it.  7 buttons are there so you can have neogeo games with 4 on a line... but you can get away with 4 in a square for them (but you have to change the settings on each game)...   This really depends *(imho) with how your used to playing them...  I have 7 myself and built a ton of control panels.

As for the mouse... trackball will do... and you can have mouse button one and two as players one and two if you want.  mame wont care (but other emulators might)...  A button is a button to mame. 

But consider this.  Frankenpanels are convient because once you are done, everything is just there and can be used.  But none of the controls are as good as a dedicated control panel.  They also take up more space.  Consider if you can design a hotswap control panel.  it might not work with all cabinet types.  But then you can dedicate a control panel per control. 
Also nice for when you find a 720 control panel or starwars controller.  You can add later without rebuilding everything.

As for controlling you computer when not in a the front end.  just buy a wireless mouse/keyboard.  Then put it away somewhere when not using it.

[Tumerboy]

Thanks for the info.  I have no illusions that this will be my one and only build.  I know myself better than that.  So I figured a Frankenpanel would be a good starting point, so I can play whatever I want (even if the controls aren't the best), but fully expect I'll be building more later.

I have to admit I don't fully understand how hotswap panels works?  I've seen a few threads on them, but they've mostly been about layout or what have you.  How do you hot swap with all the wires?  Do you have to re-wire each panel you put in place?  Or are you mounting a separate Ipac on each panel, or section of panel?  Doesn't that end up taking up a bunch of room?

On the panel I'm planning now, I don't think I'd have enough room to mount the ipac on the actual CP, so it would have to be in the box somewhere, which seems like it would preclude hotswapping.  Though I suppose if I simplified the panel into several different panels, it would make room for the encoder.

If I can use Player 1 & 2 reasonably, I probably won't bother with extra mouse only buttons.  Like I said, I'm trying to keep my frankenpanel as simple as I can.  I'll probably stick with the 6 button format for the same reason.

Here's my current plan:

Panel is 30" wide, and 9" deep before the curve.  -0.75" on each side for the box, and some small amount more for angling it down, puts the placeable area at something like 28"x7" or so.

[markronz]

Pretty sure that all fighters used 6 buttons, not 7 or 8.   I find that when people have that number of buttons on their control panels, is so that they can more easily emulate other systems, like N64, or other, which had more buttons.   Another reason for 7 buttons, is so that there are four buttons in a row.  This is done because all Neo Geo arcade games had 4 buttons in a row like this.  So some people like to add that 7th button to make that easier.   I personally just have a pretty normal 6 button configuration, and I have to reach down to the second row of buttons for that 4th button (if used) in Neo Geo arcade games.  It's not a big enough of a hassle for me to install a 7th button just for that reason.

Regarding the dedicated 4 way.   I would say if you have a U360, then this wouldn't be necessary.   If you do add one, it is, like you said, for the feeling of it being physically restricted, and more authentic that way.   For me, I guess I'm not that picky.  I think I can get away with just a U360 because subconscious, I must be making an effort to only move the joystick in only the four directions.   So I guess it's really a preference thing.  If you don't think the lack of restriction will bother you, then it wouldn't be needed.

The trackball computer mouse thing is always a good idea, IMHO.   But the dedicated mouse buttons is always the tricky part.   I put dedicated mouse buttons on my first arcade and I've regretted it ever since.  I mean, if you do your job right, you shouldn't have to do all that much admin work.  So having those buttons on there just adds clutter, and get in the way.   On the other hand, it is nice to have them there when you are in Windows.   So I guess that really comes down to two things.  First, are you planning to only emulate MAME?   If so, then you can simply make some buttons be dedicated mouse buttons.  You can do this because MAME allows you to set mouse clicks as buttons.   So, for example, you could set Player 1, Buttons 5 and 6 to always be left and right click.  Then you can just map the mouse clicks in MAME and you'd be set.    If you plan to emulate other systems, it's not likely that those emulators will be as flexible.   Like SNES has 6 buttons on the controller.  But if two of your six buttons on your CP are mouse clicks, then the SNES emulator probably isn't going to allow you to map those to buttons.   At least no SNES emulator I've tried...    So anyway, if you're just doing MAME, it's a non-issue.   If you're doing other systems, then that leads me to my second option.   The second option is to just get creative and find a way to hide them.   What I did on my control panel, was that I hid a DPDT switch behind the coin door.   When you flip the switch P1 B5 and B6 change inputs, and they will act as mouse clicks.  When you flip the switch back, the buttons go back to be whatever keyboard press you set them up as.    I like this setup personally, but I will admit, I get sort of confused if I ever forget to flip that switch back.  But this is pretty minor to me.   But that's just how I did it.  It may also be possible, through some scripting, to get keyboard presses to act like mouse clicks, or vice versa.   So that's another option you could think about.

About the location of the spinner...   I fight the urge all the time to make my control panels symetrical.  So I understand your urge to place it directly in the center, above the trackball.  But like you mentioned, you can very easily smash your fingers while playing Golden Tee, or some Bowling games.    So yeah, it's based to place it a bit off to the side, something like what you have in your initial draft picture.   One other thing I noticed was that you have buttons above the trackball.   Depending on what you plan on having those buttons do, that might not be a good idea.   For instance, on my first control panel, I put an Exit button and a Reset button on the top above the trackball.   Well when you play Golden Tee, or the like, you tend to hit the buttons as well.   So I've quit many a game unintentionally due to the placement of those buttons.  So again, that's something you will have to consider.   Below is a picture of my control panel, with my 4 admin buttons split up on either side of the trackball to give you an idea of what I did.   No spinner on this CP though...   Then there are also the people on this site who dont like any admin buttons at all.  And they hide them, or use hidden key combinations to perform these admin functions (ex:  Player 1 + Player 2  exits the game).

[markronz]

Doh!   I think I must have only read the initial post, and not the ones that followed it for some reason, so my post has some duplicate information as Lilwolf.  Oops!   

Oh well I guess.    About the hot swapping business.   I haven't done this yet myself, but it would involve finding some easy way to wire multiple controls to one plug.   So that could be wiring everything up to a jamma harness, or to a few cat5 ethernet cables, or something.   Something that you can easily unplug and plug in another one.   You'd have to look around and see what others have done for more info on that.

[Tumerboy]

Thanks Markronz, that's still good info.  I realized about the admin buttons (the little ones) after I posted.  I figured I would hit them when playing with the Trackball.  I do like the idea of having dedicated admin buttons (but can't decide on exactly how many/which), over using the shift functions like many people do.  I had originally planned to put the admin buttons below the monitor bezel, similar to Kneivel's woody (and probably others):



I may still do that, but would probably group them all to one side.  In that case, the area above the trackball opens up.  Is the spinner still too close? Or is it really only a problem if it's directly over the TB?

I don't expect to run anything other than Mame on this, so the double-use mouse buttons sounds fine.  I'm still a little confused on how you'd assign button's P1 5 & 6 to double as mouse buttons?  Would I run 2 sets of wires to P5 and P6? Or is it simple software setup I'm unaware of?

ETA: on an only partially related note, I know a lot of people use European style Cabinet hinges to attach their CP to the box.  I like the idea of that too.  If my box has a 5 or 10 degree slant on top, do the Euro hinges bend that way?  I know they'll hinge out, but in the closed position will they 'overclose' by a few degrees? or do you guys make little 5 degree wedges to angle them off the back side of the box?  Thanks

[markronz]

Hard to say about the location of the spinner.   It seems like with the spinner, you'd want to be able to rest your wrist down in front of it.  Hard to tell from your picture, but it seems like you might not have a good place to set your wrist down.  The best piece of advice is to make a test control panel first, even if it's made out of cardboard.   A lot of the spacing stuff is personal opinion. 

About the mouse buttons.  They wouldn't really be dual use.   They would be dedicated mouse buttons, all the time.   But MAME allows mouse clicks to be assigned as buttons.   So the same way you set a normal keyboard letter press to a button in MAME, you would do for the mouse.  So, just an average MAME key setting, but you press the mouse button instead.

Regarding the hinges.   I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, or what you mean by "overclose".  Are you putting the hinges on the BACK of the control panel?  Or the front?   Most seem to put them on the front of the box.  I don't know the degree of the angle of my CP box, but in the picture below, you can see that it does have an angle to it.   I didn't do anything special to the hinges to account for this.   They close up until the CP rests on the box.   Pretty sure the hinges never fully lock all the way closed, due to the angle, but that doesn't really matter.   They hold it in place, and it opens and closes super easy, so that's all that matters.

[Donkbaca]

Food for thought:

1) You don't need to worry about mouse buttons.  You set up your front end and then you never mess with it.  In the even that you do need to, you pull a keyboard and mouse out of the front door.  That being said.  I personally don't see why so many people have trackballs, unless you are a big golden tee/crystal castles/marble madness fan.  Centipede uses the trackball, and so does missile command.  I can't play any of those games for more than 5 minutes, so I don't have a trackball

2) same for the spinner, unless you absolutely love tempest.  Yeah you can play driving games with a spinner, but I personally think its a waste.

3)  No need for a dedicated 4 way with a U360, unless you are a diehard classics fan and need to have the restricted feel.  Even if that is the case Andy just came out with top mounted restrictors for the U360.

4) The only admin button you need is exit.  The only other one that is really handy is pause.  No reason to have any other buttons.

5) If you are planning on building a slim style LCD panel, an admin panel on top of the CP is a good idea, if for no other reason than it eats up real estate that would otherwise be taken up by the bezel, it helps keep the screen in proportion.

6) Just use a piano hinge to hinge the CP, cheaper, easier to mount.

[Tumerboy]

Thanks for the replies.

Markronz, on the hinges, I was thinking they were mounted at the back edge of the box, and then attached to the top.  That back edge closes to say 80 or 85 degrees in the closed position.  Most cabinets (and I assume cabinet hinges) close to where the door (CP in this case) is perpendicular (90 degrees) to the face frame that the hinge attaches to.  So, if the hinge is designed to be at a 90 degree angle in the closed position, my question is if they will go past that, to say 80 or 85 degrees.  Mounting the hinges on the other side means that when fully closed, the hinge is only at 95-100 degrees, so it wouldn't be an issue. 

I'll give the front mount some thought.  Just seemed like it might be harder to get at everything with the CP opened toward you.

Donkbaca, thanks for the replies.  I know the mouse wouldn't need to be used often (Markronz, I understand what you meant now about P5 & P6), but it seems like it would be useful.  No, I'm not a huge Centipede/Missile Command fiend, but I do like to play them on occasion.  Mostly, I figure for my first panel it's probably better to err on the side of too many options than to build it all and find out I'm annoyed that I can't play X.  As I stated above, I'm sure I'll be building more in the future, and by that time, will probably have figured out more what I actually want to play regularly.

You're probably right on the admin buttons, I'll have to ponder that for a bit.  Maybe putting them above the P1 joystick would work well enough.

Thanks again guys.

[Donkbaca]

You want the CP to open toward you so the sticks don't bang against your monitor glass.

A mouse really isn't needed at all, unless you want to navigate your FE with it.  No need for it other than to play games.  I got a trackball, decided not to put it on my CP after playing with MAME and realizing it wasn't worth it to add them

7 buttons is more useful then a spinner and a trackball IMHO, it lets you play 4 in a row for neo geo games, and you can use the 7th button for run on UMK3


I say build the thing for what you actually want to play, and make it good for playing the games you like, instead of mediocre to play a bunch of games you don't.