Trackball Booster Kit from GGG and other trackball sensitivity questions

[markronz]

Hello everyone-
    I have posted before about my new trackball having "drifting issues".  Where you spin the ball, and it will drift a different direction eventually.   I've tried what everyone has said to do.  I cleaned out all the existing oil in the bearings, I used 3-in-1 oil, I've spun the bearings on a drill.   I even tried that with 6 other new bearings too, and those weren't any better.   Well, for all my efforts, the trackball does seem to spin a little better, but it's still far from perfect.   It very hard to pin point what exactly causes it, but some times it just doesn't go in the direction I intended to.   I will play a bowling game, and about every other frame, I can roll the ball straight, the other frames I get gutters.   I'm hoping that over time all the bearings will get even more broken-in, and will start to roll with some consistency.   I seem to be able to drive ok in Golden Tee maybe 80% of the time, but the real problem comes with putting.  I CANNOT put in Golden Tee right now.   If the putting surface says even 1 to the left, and I try to account for that, the ball will go WAAAAY left.  Like it's over sensitive.  Seems almost like there's only a straight up direction, or a diagonal direction, but nothing in between.  Just had a thought, in my MAME config settings, I have the trackball set so that you can control it with the trackball (Mouse 1) OR the Player 1 Joystick.   Do you think that this would have an adverse effect on how the trackball would operate?    I didn't think that it would, and that the trackball would still operate like an analog control, like it should.

I've also been playing with the analog sensitivity settings.    Do you think that tweaking these settings for the different games might help?

Is it correct that the speed settings does NOT change anything with the trackball, since that's analog?   I believe I am on MAME v.128.

Also, I was looking at the trackball booster kit from GGG:
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products_id=283
Do you think that this will help me at all either?

Or any other tips you have for me?

[VanillaGorilla]

Wow dude, you are obsessed! This is how trackballs have always worked. Ultimately they always 'run out' in one direction, the one with the highest coefficient of drag. The only thing you could do, POSSIBLY, is guarantee that the runout of each bearing is EXACTLY the same. That is, with an equal application of force, each bearing will spin precisely the same number of times. Have fun doing that exercise....

I have the booster kit. It will not solve this problem, but may help with others....

I'm having a vision and I see your future:

 

[markronz]

Yeah, you must be looking at my past and my future, as I've done my fair share of banging my head on all this already.   

Now I hear you, on everything you said, but something here just isn't right.  While I understand that all trackballs will have some level of drifting, I would have to say that it doesn't affect the gameplay on the others arcades.   For some reason on mine, it does affect the gameplay and makes certain games just unplayable.  If I can't putt in Golden Tee, that's kind of a big deal.   If I can't bowl straight more than half the time, that's also a big deal.  So I know drifting will exist to some extent no matter what, it shouldn't be doing this to the gameplay.   So I am extremely confused why I am having such a hard time with this.   If the drifting isn't causing the issues, then I don't know what is.  I am just looking for some help here because I like my golden tee and bowling games.  Just looking for suggestions on what I can try!

[Nephasth]

It's been a while since I read your other thread, but have you tried, or has anyone suggested swapping the ball itself? The ball in your set up may be unbalanced (unlikely, but still a possibility). If you don't have another ball you could take yours out and make a visible mark with a dry erase marker and roll it across a level surface where your mark should stay in the center of the ball while rolling. Doing this will eliminate any difference in drag between the bearings. If it doesn't roll straight and the mark doesn't stay in the center, it's probably unbalanced.

[markronz]

Thanks for the suggestion Nephasth.    But yes, I have tried another ball.   I got the lighting upgrade from GGG, so I have the original trackball and the translucent one.  Swapping them out doesn't seem to make any difference.

[Xiaou2]

The question is... does this have the same issue in windows?

 Check the roller shafts for any damages or foreign debris.  Might even use a caliper to measure both ends to make sure they are the same thickness.

 Make sure all bearings are seated to the utmost bottom of their mounts.

 Make sure each bearing, when spun between the fingers, has no sticky spots, nor any visible wobble of any kind.

 Turn off any windows mouse acceleration.
 Unplug any other analog joysticks, drawing tablets, mice..etc.. to make sure there are no other input conflicts.

 Delete any nvram and config files from mame.  Older files can cause issues with new mame versions.

 Make sure the ball is not scraping the mounting plate or anything else.

 Try the trackball on another port, and another pc.  Try using a different encoder.
If you hacked mouse optics, rather than using official optos, poor positioning could cause tracking issues.

[markronz]

I'll give some of those a shot, thanks for the suggestion.  I'll post more details later.   But first, I just had a quick question.  Is this the method you'd recommend to disable the mouse acceleration?
http://kaioa.com/node/68

Or is there some other way you'd do it?

[markronz]

OK, to answer some of your questions...

Does it have the same issue in Windows?   No, everything appears to move fine in Windows.  No strange movements or anything, besides the drifting towards the end of a spin.

Everything looks good with the bearings.  They are clean, the right thickness, and when in the case, are seated tight in their mounts.   Man that sounds dirty.     

Anyway, the bearings are all brand new, and I have 6 replacement ones, so I chose the best six from the 12 to use.   So they spin pretty well, no wobbling or sticky spots or anything like that.

I have no other mice or anything else strange connected.  Only my KeyWiz.  So I don't think there are any input conflicts happening.

I've only had one version of mame.  128, and I've never upgraded.  So I shouldn't have any older config or nvram files.  But just in case I did delete these files for golden tee games, and all those types of games.  It didn't seem to help.

The ball spins pretty freely, no scraping or anything.

I have two trackballs.  I brought over the other one, put the bearings and ball into it and it did the same thing.   So I can at least say it's not the sensor or anything.   I tried a different ball again too, and that seemed the same.

I didn't hack a mouse or anything, I have a normal betson style trackball.

So for my next steps, this is what I'm doing:
1.  I have my bearings hooked up to a drill setup that spins the bearings for me automatically.   I can just leave it run and it spins the bearings nice and evenly.  I plan on leaving them in there for at least an hour or two.  Just in case this isn't a software thing, I thought this might help.
2.  Then I've ordered the booster kit from Groovy Game Gear.  What the heck, it can't hurt.
3.  Right now, I have the mouse hooked up to the PS2 port.  I plan to hook it up to the USB port to see if that makes any difference.
4.  I plan to turn off all windows mouse acceleration. 

So I guess my last question for the moment is the proper way to disable the windows mouse acceleration.  Just wondering if this was the best way:
http://kaioa.com/node/68

If anyone has any guesses, let me know!

[Savannan]

if i were you i would ....

take that damn trackball assembly controller off and connect it to another computer

does it act up?  yes = bad trackball/circuitry on trackball      no=software/other hardware issue (redo system)

when trouble shooting... start where the problem lies...

other than the control panel/mouse options i dunno....  you have some kind of program like tweakxp installed?  check those settings..if not...nevermind

[Xiaou2]

 You have to be more specific.

 If you have two trackball units...

 Do both trackball units do the exact same thing?
(or are you saying you just have two balls, and not two entire assemblies?)

 Have you swapped not only the bearings... but the SHAFTS that the ball sits on???
As said, if someone machined the shaft wrong, where as there is a slope to the shaft... it could cause problems.

 If your trackball housing was molded poorly, and the bearings are seated at different depths, that could also create a problem.

 If you have not tested the thing on another PC... then do so.  Your PC software or hardware could be the problem.  Weather virus or corrupted driver... or corrupted files from a failing Harddrive.

 Try a new and or newly installed version of the same mame.

 
 Spinning bearings on a drill for an hour isnt a smart thing to do IMOP.  In fact, it could do more harm than good.  If your drill is not perfectly centered, and puts side pressure on the bearings... it will cause wear.   Also, and hour of constant spinning is a lot of useage wear for no good reason. 

 If you cant feel any defects in the bearing when spinning it by fingers, then its highly doubtful there is any.  You can feel the slightest grain of sand if it gets caught in a bearing.

 To clean my bearings, I use radioshacks electronics cleaner.  A small bit sprayed on top, let sink in for 30 seconds.  Spin the bearings by hand for 60 seconds... then repeat on the other side.  Repeat the process 2x.  (so thats 4 reps total)   It removes all traces of the factory grease/oils.  I prefer not to use any additional oil, however, you can then leak some 3-in-1 oil into the bearing side if you are worried about the need for lubrication.  Thick oil will slow down a bearings action considerably.

 Also, Its not impossible that your controller has gone bad.

 Draw a half-line on the ball, make the line centered and vertical. Spin the ball, note any change in direction of the balls line towards the end of a spin.  Use the same electronics cleaner to remove the line you drew on the ball.

[RandyT]

This issue with trackballs is simple physics.  There is a roller at the top and a roller on the left.  It should come as no surprise that, without a roller of equal mass on the right and bottom, the ball will eventually, regardless of how free spinning the bearings are, or any other considerations, pull up and left.  If you are working on making the angled roller in the lower right corner spin more freely as well, you are probably working against your cause.

The only possible things to do is to make the bearings so free moving that by time it starts to do this, the game has long stopped examining the movement, or place very thin shims (start with some notebook paper) under the bearings of both axes at the top left, and see if that helps.  If it does, tune it so it does what you want and find a way to make the adjustment permanent.  On other thing you could try is to increase the resistance on the angle bearing.  Try a single layer of black tape around each, so it makes a tight fit in the holder.  You'd be surprised how this can affect how freely they move.

RandyT

[VanillaGorilla]

Try a single layer of black tape around each, so it makes a tight fit in the holder.  You'd be surprised how this can affect how freely they move.

Good Idea!!

[markronz]

I'm definitely going to try all this stuff this weekend!   Thanks so much for the tips guys, I will let you know how it goes!

About the black tape, you think electrical tape would be a good bet on the type of tape to use?

[RandyT]

I'm definitely going to try all this stuff this weekend!   Thanks so much for the tips guys, I will let you know how it goes!

About the black tape, you think electrical tape would be a good bet on the type of tape to use?

Same stuff.

[markronz]

k, I've gotten a chance to look at this a lot more now.  To clarify, I do have two entire trackball setups.    I tried both trackballs on the problematic machine.   Both perform the same, and the controls are weird and over sensitive.

Then I tried both trackball assemblies on my other arcade machine.  Both trackballs worked just fine!   They are not over sensitive, so the slight drift (which we've all agreed is normal to some extent of every trackball) does not affect the gameplay.  So that means this is not a hardware thing any more.  This is a software problem.

What's weird about this, is that when I started the second arcade, I copied over the entire MAME folder from one machine to the other.  So we should be working with the exact same software here, as far as MAME goes.  Now, just in case, I recopied over the MAME folder from the working machine back over to the problematic machine.   This did not fix anything.  The trackball is still weird and over sensitive.

Now what I did next was go into the control panel, and compare the settings on both machines.  They both look exactly the same, like this:

(Now I know I did not yet disable hardware acceleration yet, more on that later).
So anyway, those settings on that tab appear to match on both machines.

Then next I checked out the driver for the mouse being used on both machines.  Both appear to be using the same driver, same version, as shown below:


The lastly, I compared the registry settings from the working machine to the not working one.   I changed them so they matched the working machines settings.  Those settings are shown below:

After updating these settings I rebooted the computer and tried again.  The trackball still acts weird.

So I can't really figure it out.  From what I've described above, it seems like the same settings exist on both machines, however the same trackball acts different on both machines.   So I'm not sure what to do.

I thought it was weird that the trackball worked on the other machine, despite the mouse acceleration stuff still being enabled.   I'm not going to touch the working machines settings.  Whatever it is they're doing, it's working.  But what I tried to do next was disable the mouse acceleration on the non-working machine.  I did this using the direction from the link I posted earlier:
http://kaioa.com/node/68
This actually didn't do much good either.
Also tried this to no avail:
http://www.tweakxp.com/article36785.aspx

So now I'm back at square one.   I at least figured out that it's likely a software thing, but I'm not sure what else to try now.  

The only other thing I can think of is that I have a more regular version of Windows XP on the working machine.  On the not working machine, I have TinyXP installed on there. But I wouldn't think that should make any difference.  

Any ideas for me?

[taylormadelv]

This thread got sooo deep that I stopped reading and brainstromed something ridiculusly simple...are you certain that any mouse device other than your trackball is connected to your comp and may be causing the drift? I have had mouse issues where I thought the mouse was perfectly flat but actually was not completely flat and kept moving the screen curser very very slowly across the screen. Just an idea. A last resort will be for you to buy an new trackball and see if you have the same problems.

And just to stir the pot...all trackballs are basically the same and always have been. I even have proof. I have just connected my 4.5", original Missile Command trackball to my Golden Tee Fore! board (not mame) and it works fabulously! Once you've tried playing GT with a MC trackball, you will never go back! It feels awesome!
So all that crap about red vs green optic boards working or not working in 60 in 1 boards is just a few wires in different positions...

[markronz]

Thanks Taylor, but my last post sort of moved us past that point.  The trackball works on one machine and not another.   So it appears to be a software issue.   Getting a new trackball will not help me.  I have two of them here.  Both work on the one machine, and both do not work on the problematic machine.  There are no other mice in play to cause and input conflicts.

[markronz]

Well son of a  !!!

I fixed it!!!!!
 
 

I went through all the MAME folders, and re-copied them over from the working machine to the broken one.   Not sure which folder fixed it exactly, but it's working now!  When I re-copied over the MAME before, I only copied the MAME system files and such, not every single folder.   Well I finally took the time to copy it all over from my external hard drive.  Took about 2.5 hours to copy, but whatever was broken is now fixed.  I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious to figure out what exactly was causing this, but I guess at this point, I'm sort of looking at it like, WHO CARES IT WORKS!

Thank you all so much for putting up with me, and for giving me all these great ideas to try!   So now, not only does the software work great, but the trackball spins great now too!  So the end result is all positive.   Sorry for my frustration along the way, and thank you again for all the help!

[VanillaGorilla]

thank god! i was starting to get worried for your mental health! go play!